Regardless of your views on whether its okay to end a human life.
do we agree that abortion is ending a human life?
Why not? Also, all these pro-life people are so fucking hypocritic. Just look at what lengths they're ready to go to achieve their goals. All these Crisis pregnancy centres pretending to be abortion clinics. How pathetic.
The situation does dictate if you are trying to save a fetus yes, but we are talking about abortion. This is different. Abortion is in most cases a choice. I would still argue that in the car accident the fetus is not a human yet, but the choice was not made to abort it, but to save it because of an accident to the host being
heres my two cents
if abortion was murder, then, it would be called murder
abortion isnt ending a human life per se, its just stopping it before its even begun, and i think you and i can agree that a fetus is not equal to a full grown human, not in terms of human rights, but in terms of concept
honestly, i dont think abortion is either good or bad, if you want to kill the motherfucker, go ahead, but its still something alive, not a human, but alive, i think the best thing to do is to use contraceptive to avoid this whole bitch before it even happens
If i got a girl pregnant, and i didnt want the goddamn baby, id definitely abort it, just saying, i think its better to kill a baby rather than bringing it into an environment where i cant take proper care of it, if i did have the resources to have a child, id have it, but its not about inconvenience, its about sparing the kid of a life not worthy of a human being, thats the reason i think abortion is ok
a rose by any other name ... termminology doesnt determine reality.
i think that human life begins at conception , its the only way to be sure
it cant be alive, and human but not a human life.
nor is inconvenience a legal defense against the ending of a human life
I do agree, in my consideration, a fetus could survive outside the womb at one point for a being far earlier than another. The point of it being considered a human cannot be set because of this. Just a general guideline. I wholeheartedly think that abortion should only be allowed to save the mothers life though. If you made the choice to have sex sometimes the consequences of this are becoming pregnant. You should have to give birth to the baby. I'm not saying you should have to keep it, adoption is there for a reason.
There's no point talking about actual human beings and realistic situations. Such things have no currency with the lifefag. Their minds work in childish analogies and biblical metaphors.
It's a living being, whether you want to call it a clump of human cells, or an underdeveloped human fetus it's still ending human life. It's literally murder no matter how you spin it. I'm fine with it since humans are all trash beings regardless, but fuck off. I'm tired of these liberal pussies that are too scared to say it's murder. Say it's murder and stand by it stop being so fucking retarded.
A fetus is not an egg. Humans have eggs as well and they flush them out every month. When people eat a chicken egg, they're basically eating the chicken's period. It's unfertilized.
dude, im not liberal, fucking hate those guys, seriously, you think a libtard would enter 4chan?
its alive anyways, but honestly, the baby years, youre just a poop machine, i think youre not worthy of human treatment until you can speak, read and write, when you can actually express yourself, i dont mean to say that children below 7 years are worthless, but come on, is that really a person?
Meh abortion should be legal thankfully I don't have to waste my money on one. She pissed on an hour ago. Dubs decides
when youre a grown man and capable of taking care of yourself, but not doing, i agree, just piece of shit, but come on, theyre just babies, they cant even walk, man, youre asking a fish to climb a tree
a baby in the womb cant walk
a baby that's 1 year old cant walk
so what. they are in the same condition. unable to sustain themselves.
why cant I kill a 1 year old if I decide it's going to ruin my life?
yes, however calling it a fetus is acknowledging it is not a human. I can kill an animal with no repercussions because it is not human. they even give me a license to do so every year.
By saying the woman has the right to abort you are saying that her bodily autonomy is more valuable than the life of the human inside of her. If she wants to take thalidomide, is that OK? If she has a newborn and would rather be out partying (bodily autonomy and all that), can she just leave the newborn at home to starve?
>do we agree that abortion is ending a human life?
so what if it is?
Whether you rationalize it as just cells, or human life......does it matter?
The funny (re: fucking retarded) thing about the "Pro-Life" side of the abortion argument is the skewed value system of what "life" is, how "life" is defined.
If you want to rationalize abortion 'ending human life', okay.....so what's it to you then?
Who are you to determine what "life" is, if the long term ramifications of birthing that child is opposite of that your notion?
moral impulse suggests the babies but moral impulse is not the same as rational decision making.
that situation is an unrealistic diad and can be reversed easily, similar to the people on the train track problem
bodily autonomy is a fabrication. you don't get to choose what you do with your own body in all instance.
everyone has limits to freedom
a baby in the womb could be put up for adoption
a 1 year old can be put up for adoption
I don't want to put the 1 year old up for adoption
I think it would be better to kill it.
If I stick a knife in a preggo woman and kill the kid they would try me for manslaughter or murder
>lol we abort more fetus than give birth to baby every year
Abortions in US in 2014 (most recent data): 652,639
Births in US in 2014: 3,985,924'
That's a ratio of more than 6:1, you dumb asshole.
No. I know this is bait, but anyone who really believes that a zygote, which has no fucking concept of life is alive, prior to being BORN the act of becoming alive is fucking retarded. I find it hilarious that you sub-human morons are of the same political spectrum that supports the death penalty, taking insurance from children, money from the poor to give to the wealthy (ie literally the new tax plan and everyone knows it), ending after school benefits for kids, increasing prison sentences, deportation EVEN if the child was brought here against their will and did nothing wrong, and god help them if they dare be born a minorty or a women, then they should bow to you as you strip their rights away, including that of a womans own body. I could be here all day you fucking incel cucks who want the government out of things until it upsets you, who want free speech, until it upsets you. You cuckhold retards are all that is wrong with life and you are too stupid even to see what worthless fucking concubines you are. Fucking waste of DNA. Your "family values" aren't fit to wipe my ass incels. Fucking sage.
It a thought experiment if you could answer the question quickly then clearly you see more value in one than the other with easy and see where you should stand in the argument
I haven't met them so I can't say if they're human or not. I wouldn't call 90% of the assholes I see walking around human. No one is home upstairs. They are just sacks of meat consuming and hating. I don't call that human.
Hey simmer down I was pointing the flaw out in your argument. We both understand embryos and niggers are worthless. And I don't have a dog in this Michael Vick party. I think abortion should be legal all the up to 18 months
Years... I meant years.
If he/she, whichever of the only two genders it happens to be, drops out of high school I'm gassing the cunt and trying again. College is too expensive to be fucking around
That still proofs my point that one is more valuable than the other depending on how fast you can answer this question but i guess I see what u are saying rationally speaking my kid dies but emotionally i would want to say the little fuck
Not if there's no developed central nervous system. I feel like that's just ending the potential for human life. Which may be fine if the parents are not ready and can't consider adoption.
a baby in the womb is alive and depends on mom to live
a 1 year old is alive and depends on his mom to live
mom wants to kill him when he's 1 year old.
using your criteria, mom should be allowed to kill her 1 year old.
moral impulse is to save your own child for most people.
that doesnt make the 5 babies less valid.
logically that doesnt make sense.
thats my point, i think its an interesting argument, but not particularly useful when deciding common law
Yeah for sure i wasnt saying the question i ask was going to end this debate it was meant to show that if you can choose one without even thinking twice about the other maybe that does say something about it's value maybe it doesn't
>do we agree that abortion is ending a human life?
In this case, birth control methods that prevent the implantation of fertilized eggs end human life.
Life has not yet begun in either case. We measure our age from birth because before that our viability is tenuous.
if the cannot survive without medical assistance, they should be let go and not be considered a human any more. they are a burden to society. just being sick or old does not make you inhuman. if your brain no longer works you cannot live without a feeding tube and breathing machine. at that point you are not a human.
Yes, abortion is ending a human life.
Yes, abortion has been proven to lower crime rates in impoverished cities in the United States.
Yes, the African American community would be twice as large today without abortions.
when it should be legal:
>very early stage of pregnancy
>kiddo will be significantly crippled or with some awful genetic disease and burden for society and especially parents for the rest of its life
>not doing so would highly endanger mother's life
when it should not be legal:
>later stages of pregnancy or when it puts mother in significant danger without proper reason
Abortion is intrusive procedure to mother's body and even more so the later it's done. There are so many ways to regulate abortion - proper education on danger of it, only after approving by doctor from certain stage, after psychological testing when suspicion of abusing it... but it should be legal.
i think making exceptions leads to logical errors and is a slippery slope.
the only exception being a threat to the life of the mother. such as if she has cancer and treatment would kill the baby , etc etc
other wise you just start cutting moral corners
>Are retards people?
Short answer: NO
Most retards would not be able to survive on their own.
Left alone, they would die slowly.
It would be more humane to put them to sleep just like a dog.
You would support euthanizing a child with down syndrome? And you have no way to know if he would be a waste of time and money. Maybe something in his life kicks off another event that will have a profound positive impact on others. And maybe not. There's no way to know unless given the opportunity.
its not a conservative/ progressive thing.
its a when does life begin thing
it has been politicised for the expediency of politicians but really its a scientific and legal question
consciousness isnt the same as life. you can be rendered unconscious permanently and i still cant actively murder you (a fetus will eventually "wake up")
also consciousness is poorly understood anyway
yes, because, a downie would not, and i want to make myself very clear on this, would NOT be a functioning member of society, not because he has a disability, but because, people wouldnt treat him like another human being, but an oblivious creature, they wouldnt be able to have jobs, or to start families, cuz theyre not human
>Maybe something in his life kicks off another event that will have a profound positive impact on others.
The only successful "downies" I've ever seen is Corky, those casted with Johnny Knoxville in "The Ringer", and the Special Olympics themselves (which the Ringer was based off of).
And like acting and Olympics for normies,....they have a lottery winning chance at making it.
But UNLIKE normies, if you fail at your shot in Hollywood (for bit parts) or the Olympics, you don't get to fall back on meager slave-wage jobs, because those jobs get taken by failed normies (or immigrants); which brings up another topic "over-population".
So the question is, do you risk birthing and raising a downie baby to adulthood in the vain hope they'll make it? Or suffer pampering this kid forever?
Literally everyone argues if it is a life or not , a human or not ,mother's choice or not. What i think is really wrong here is how society forgot that the real/original purpose of having sex is reproduction. A fucking bitch or a stupid idiot who decided not to use anticonceptives because of how extremely horny they where now want to create excuses to get rid of such a big responsability without consecuences. If it alive or not does not change the monstruosity of the humanity
i guess thats the beauty of 4chan, we dont get pissed off, because were just some fuckers on the internet fighting without being serious, man its good to be on this board some days
the most childish bullshit "argument" there is.
ok you want that? so if the doctor cuts the cord first, THEN its murder? Abortion is killing a human, fucking period, but that doesnt mean niggers shouldnt be able to do it for free.
If there were only one case of a person with down syndrome starting a family, it would still be enough to refute the earlier post that people with down syndrome can't have families. It doesn't matter how rare or not it is.
The "conscious" argument is retard logic.
If someone was in a medically induced coma and had a 99% chance of regaining consciousness, you couldn't kill him because he would ruin your life once he became conscious.
99% of fetuses will gain consciousness. You cant kill one because they are temporarily unconscious
The goverment needs to stop telling us what we do/put in our body. I mean do you guys understand how ridiculous it is that some retard can tell other adults what we can do with our bodies, isn't that just absurd?!?!?
Hey, Vsauce. Michael here.
What is... 'Life'? Well, it's complicated, is what it is. Merriam-Webster defines it as, 'the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body'. But wait... There's more. Merriam-Webster ALSO defines it as 'the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual'. That's where things get... Complicated.
Ya see, some people believe that abortion is ending a human life-- and in a literal, scientific sense, they're right. That should make this whole argument pretty simple, right? WRONG.
Those in favor of abortion view it differently-- a human's life hasn't 'started' until they're capable of experiencing the things that make us human. Joy, sadness, complex thought-- y'know, the reason we're even able to HAVE this debate. But that doesn't answer the question of who's right.
In the end, it's a complex question with a lot of complex answers that are all kind-of right and kind-of wrong. But let's change our perspective to the person HAVING the baby. Are they ready? Are they financially stable? Are they in a supportive relationship? When you think about it, having this baby could potentially destroy not ONLY the mother's life if she's unprepared, but the child's, as well. "Well, just give it up for adoption," I hear you saying. The truth of the matter is that the adoption system is FULL of kids, and if a child isn't adopted at the prime ages (around three months to three years old), their chances of ever getting adopted go down DRASTICALLY, often causing emotional issues within children who never get adopted. For those who do get adopted, however, the situation can potentially be worse. There are many people out there who abuse adoption services, providing foster care to as many kids as possible JUST to get money from the foster system so they don't have to work. This can leave kids without the resources they need to grow into a healthy adult.
Anyways check out The Curiosity Box.
Hey, Vsauce. Michael here, again.
Listen here you little shit, I didn't spend time typing up an explanation as to why it's such a heavily debated issue for you to chime in with your dumb little shit mouth and try to wipe away my hard work with nothing more than a 'Well I disagree'. You're lucky abortion isn't more widely accepted, because if your parents knew even a fraction of how dumb you'd end up being, they would have gone in with a coat hanger themselves. My whole livelihood is based around explaining complex shit and I wouldn't have made a video on this if it weren't.
The perspective of the person having the abortion isn't relevant. It doesn't matter if she's ready, financially stable, in a supportive relationship, etc. Can she kill her toddler if those criteria aren't met? The question is whether or not the fetus is a valuable human life. If it's not, have an abortion for whatever reason you want.
Why does it matter so much to people? If you live i one part of the country and some else gets an abortion how does that affect you. Even if your neighbor did what the hell is it any of your business. Why do you have any right to tell someone else how to live.
If your neighbour abuses his wife and children, it's none of your business. If they own slaves, so what? If you're against slavery, just don't own a slave yourself. Stay out of other people's business.
This. You're not at all killing a human being with thoughts and emotions and memories. You're killing potential - which doesn't matter one way or another to the potential. If you can live with that, go for it.
Say someone was in an accident. They're in a medically induced coma. The doctor says their memories, personality, everything is gone. The doctor says they'll have to start from square one and relearn everything again, but they will recover and live a full life. Is it ok to kill this person before they wake up?
Its like baking bread. You put dough in, you get bread out. But if you take the pan out early you get a sort of half baked mess.
When does dough become bread?
When does a fetus become a human life?
We can all agree it happens sometime in the oven, we just don't know exactly when. Honestly, I don't believe there IS an answer. We all have our opinions but in the end a fetus being a candidate for abortion can't survive outside the womb and turn into a proper, living human, the same way a pan of dough removed too early from the oven can't be converted into a delicious loaf of bread.
Sometime during the transition the dough becomes undercooked bread. Where is that line, I have no idea. All I know is I got a vasectomy so its never going to be a problem for me to worry about.
If you don't like abortion, dont do it. The same way nobody is making you drink a beer if you don't like it. If someone else wants to it in no way hurts you at all.
The cringelords in this discussion wouldn't so nonchalantly disregard the concept of abortion if it was their own fucking guts growing bloated and they had to poop the child out. Then you'd probably see a change in attitude pretty fuckn quickly. Good thing they don't though. They'd just fuck that up too.
>But anon muh religion and believe
You hit the nail on the head though with a great analogy 10/10.
and inb4 some retard tries to discredit you with:
>But people are more complex then bread anon.
Intentionally ending a human life is wrong under almost all circumstances.
Premeditated abortion is invariably ending a human life in accordance with my understanding of "human life".
Plan B / morning after pill seems to be reasonable though.
Fuck feminist rights, I would rather protect the rights of an unborn child regardless of gender.
Shouldn't we err on the side of caution then when it comes to abortion? The child may be a valuable human life, it might not be. Would you throw someone in jail because they may or may not have commited a crime? You only do that after proving your case beyond a reasonable doubt.
To me it isn't a living being until it's born. As long as it's not born, it is part of a female body, and she has the right to decide what to do with her own body.
I don't give much value to human life, for an adult or a kid. life of an embryo? haha!
The only reason they are alive is because they are kept alive by machinery, And thats why its also known as legal death you retard.
Go learn some stuff yourself before you bitch to other people.
Asshat would you take care of her for the rest of your life.
sperm is a dead end , as is the egg , unless fertilized.
christfag?... pathetic strawman, its a legal and scientific question only,
you cant answer me properly because you have no answer
>The doctor says their memories, personality, everything is gone. The doctor says they'll have to start from square one and relearn everything again, but they will recover and live a full life.
This is impossible for any doctor to say and incredibly rare and practially impossble the way you describe it, but I'll play your shitty little thought experiment.
Yes, it is OK and as far as I'm concerned preferable to pull the plug. I would never want to wake up a blank slate with no memories and the mind of a newborn only to have to learn everything again and die of old age by the time I'm aware and able enough to enjoy life. That sounds like a living hell.
Asinine comparison and even more fuel for my philosophical position. Thank you.
You faggots have moved into a totally different territory. You can't compare abortion with life support, it's totally different and irrelevant.
the question of when life begins and what differentiates its absence from later deficiencies that can occur later. is literally the point of all of this.
conception is the only definite standard, everything is guesswork to one degree or another.
conception is the only universal in this instance
This is second trimester, I don't even wanna know what third is like. Idgaf how edgy or sadistic you claim you are, if you can get behind this you deserve to be tortured slowly for as long as possible until you die the worst possible death.
lol IKR? Funny how conservatives always talk about the left and "awwe did I hurt your fee fees?" when their entire position on abortion is consistent only with their fee fees and no scientific merit.
"b-but the cell clusters have souls! Muh fee fees and muh jesus!"
No they don't. Fuck off .
Ending one human life vs fucking up two human lives that will probably not have a good influence on society and might fuck up other people's lives in the process, just because that teenage girl was forced to keep the baby and be a mum instead of going to college...
Yes abortion means ending a human life, it's still better than the alternative.
Also, guys always complain about the girlfriend getting pregnant and not leaving them a choice in whether to keep the baby, but prohibiting abortion robs them of their right to choose altogether. It doesn't just affect women.
Of course. And if we only have two rights as as a species they would be:
1. To give birth
2. To be born
Discuss that next time some airhead bitch talks about her "right to choose."
what are we fuckin animals? Maybe you are but all this shit, all of it is so we're not just animals and we get to choose.
All of it, clean water, a place to live, civilization itself is all so we aren't forced to do shit we don't wanna do. That's what it means to be human. The right wing doesn't understand that shit. Liberal. It's literally in the name.
Why do fags think human life is so valuable? Give me a reason that doesn’t involve God or “we is smart”. Who gives a shit if someone sucks out a fetus, you guys should adopt those unwanted babies if you are so against abortion. This conversation is retarded.
Well, the death penalty is also murder if you go that way, bombing Irak and Syria "for the sake of freedom" too.
It's about getting the best tradeof possible, because there never will be a society everybody agrees with.
But trust me no woman has ever happily had an abortion like it was nothing.
That is literally wat is happening and has happend in the past.
People have bought slaves there freedom in the past.
There are groups that do take in and protect/provide for abused women.
I am not saying he is 100% correct but he has a point, if people feel that strongly about the subject maybe they should.
Some people make a recovery from those states and will more or less function the same as before. Unless the person has stated that they want to be killed, isn't it wrong to take the opportunity to live away from them?
Yet it being born without being wanted will destroy the life of his mother, its own, and globally be a negative influence on society.
It's not about being guilty or innocent, we're all born innocent, it's about being born in good conditions with a proper environment.
Anybody can make a baby, not everybody is fit to raise it.
So harm is the bar?
a person is a person, doesn't matter what they do
some people die falling out of bed
killing a fetus is nothing
And they literally do not have to ever
unless it's because they can't have a child themselves
The world should be logical