God exists. Prove me wrong. Protip: You can't.
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
God exists. Prove me wrong.
Protip: You can't.
God only exists if I roll dubs
>>768784149
There's a juggling unicorn that speaks spanish at the centre of Pluto. Prove me wrong.
Protip: You can't
>mfw people don't understand the burden of proof
>>768784149
Odin exists. Prove me wrong.
Protip: https://youtu.be/Qj1RS9vHcsw
>>768784300
bullshit, not an argument
>le epic british pipesmoking atheist
try to find your way back to r*ddit little guy
>>768784300
burden of proof is on you for denying something that 99% of humanity accepts as fact.
>>768784149
define what your god is and I will.
>>768784409
lol. google: Russell's teapot, kiddo
>>768784463
a creator and sustainer of the universe.
>>768784433
thats an ad populum fallacy
>>768784433
What am I trying to prove exactly? I'm not making a claim. I'm simply saying that I don't believe your claim.
>>768784517
Omnipotent?
Omniscient?
Omnipresent?
>>768784149
>God exists. Prove me wrong.
And here's the usual insecure Christian thread.
>>768784149
I don't care to prove you wrong. If you care to save my soul from eternal damnation then you'll care enough to provide evidence
>>768784433
99% of people believed in the efficacy of bloodletting and human sacrifice too, were they right?
>>768784569
doesn't matter. god is the most capable force in and outside the universe. he doesn't need to be capable of anything, just more capable than anything else.
>>768784149
god exists, my wife was supposed to be pregnant.
She had all the symptoms : belly pain. dizzyness, tired, headache, everything.
I prayed the lord and the pregnancy test came negative!
>>768784662
no im asking does this god have these traits or not?
>>768784662
>. he doesn't need to be capable of anything, just more capable than anything else.
except I can do things that your god can not
>>768784621
this is a very good point
>>768784626
They were proven wrong
>proof
In the case of God it isn't that proof hasn't been found yet, it's that proof is unattainable. This puts the question of God into a different category than questions of suitable medical practice. I don't see the point in pretending they can be approached in the same way.
i fucking hate theists, they are the dumbest mutherfuckers on the planet, the truth means nothing to these assholes. god is obviously not real, this world is way too shitty for god to exist
>>768784662
and lets get some specifics here, are we talking about the Christian death god?
>>768784626
yeah and they found a better more effective alternative,
burden of proof still lies in your lap to give a better alternative than the existence of god, faggot.
>>768784990
>proof hasn't been found yet
so by that logic, everything is true until its proven false?
>>768784716
i just explained why it doesnt matter whether or not god has those traits
>>768785064
we have better alternatives
>>768785130
no you didn't
>>768784149
Frost Giants
>>768785161
learn to fucking read.
further proof that atheism is a symptom of a retard in delusion that he is smarter than everyone around him.
>>768785307
All payers to the Allfather, till Valhalla
>>768784509
Sure thing, bucko! No prob, lad! See ya, skipper!
>>768784149
God doesn't exist. Prove me wrong
>>768785367
you didnt prove anything, you just said a bunch of meaningless shit about the nature of something you have no evidence for.
>>768784149
Prove he does exist.
Protip: You can't!
>>768785421
>muh feels
>>768785109
and continuing in this same vein, if everything is true until proven false then the statement "god doesnt exist" is true too.
if you aren't an atheist you are literally a fucking idiot. vaccinations probably cause autism too
hmm. look up the 'inconsistent triad'.
>>768784149
You're right, I can't prove you wrong. It wouldn't follow logically. I cannot logically prove a negative.
But that's okay, because I'm not claiming that it is impossible for a supreme being to exist.
What I do claim is that IF a supreme being does indeed exist, it is definitely NOT the one any of us is praying to. It is either an evil, vindictive, hateful god, or one that is simply apathetic and hands-off. Regardless of which, you're wrong.
So no, the character of the Abrahamic God probably isn't real, which should terrify you.
>>768785541
Are you retarded?
It’s okay to belief and worship something/someone
But why bring up something completely unrelated such as the vaccine thing which has been proved to be a hoax multiple times, even by the guy who started it all
God will never die so long as we keep him in our hearts
>>768785668
Is he Tinker Bell?!?
>>768785541
no it isnt okay to worship a fucking fake myth, a fake responsible for thousands of years of genocide, slaughter, abuse, rape, and control. god belief makes you fucking plebian, you deserve to either accept that there is no such thing or to be thrown a fucking pit with all the other stupid people.
>>768784149
>I want this thing to be real
>you can't prove it is not, therefore it is real
If we keep slaughtering each other over an idea, then that idea needs to change. And we've been killing each other over our differing ideas of God for centuries.
We need to revisit this habit. Its a bad one.
>>768785696
Haha yes! if everyone at /b/ were to start clapping we may bring him back to life!
>>768784149
> these threads…
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. QED"
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
- Douglas Adams, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
>>768785014
>calls theists the dumbest motherfuckers
>believes in truth
In the grand scheme science asserts few things as inherently true. Math and logic are a couple of the rare fields which deal with absolute truths, but these truths must be contained within a system. It's been proven (with math and logic) that ultimate truths can never be fully contained within their systems, or within any system. There must always be a broader scope which defines the nature of truth within the systems it's observed. In this way truth is infinitely far from any definition we could assign. We live shallow lives of ignorance saying things like "the world is way too shitty for god to exist" - assuming truth for something (God) which lies infinitely beyond our conceptions.
>>768784149
first define what you mean by "God", then we'll see.
Protip: If you use the term "omnipotent" I absolutely CAN prove you wrong.
>>768786130
>implying douglas adams as more authority over the divinity than the literal word of God in the bible, torah, qu'ran. aqdas, book of mormon, sutras, etc
>>768786130
/thread
God: 0
Babelfish: 1
in the beginning there was Logos
the universe is bound by the logic proceeding from god, there are underlying foundational principles of the universe that preceded the assembly of our planet and solar system and the emergent property of matter that we call life
if our consciousness can be hosted in an assembly of matter why couldn't an immeasurably superior form of consciousness exist in a similar fashion at the beginning of the universe where all matter and energy was supposedly concentrated?
>>768784433
How many believe it is irrelevant. And not believing is not the same as denying. For instance: I am not denying that you own a Ferrari, but I am not going to believe it until you provide evidence. The burden is on you.
>>768784149
If you are bound in your mind by the shakes of faith and belief then this discussion is pointless. you will except any intellectual and emotional shelter rather than try to accept that certain things in our universe (by which i mean the overwhelming majority!) are and will likly remain unknown, and anything which helps you overcome your fear of the perspective that, within the known universe alone, and within the minute lifecycle of our planet and even smaller impact we have on its surface, that your life and existencef, like us all is beyond insignificant, and when you die, there will most likely be nothing, not even an empty blackness. You will just cease to be, and in that instant be both nothing and infinite.
>>768785518
one could take it a step further and say thet Greggory the God eating penguin also exists and therefore has killed and eaten all the gods and is also true until proven false.
This is why we prove thing to be true and not prove things to be false.
>>768785109
I said it wasn't that truth hasn't been found yet. That is a false statement. Truth cannot be found - this is a statement which can be logically proven in the case of God.
>>768786265
God is omnipotent... not op but i wanna see your argument
>>768786083
The fact that God has not stopped us proves that he either doesn't realize what we're doing, which means he's not omniscient, or cannot stop us, which means he's not omnipotent, or prefers not to stop us, which means he doesn't love us, or that he doesn't exist. An omnipotent, omniscient, loving god is impossible based on the observable evidence.
>>768786482
>this is a statement which can be logically proven in the case of God
go on then
>>768784662
Is your God capable of lying? If not, I am more capable than your God.
>>768786482
well truth that you're not a pedophile hasne been found yet so that must mean it's true... This is all according to your logic.
>>768786417
imagine you were in a room with painted pink walls, everyone agreed it is pink, and then some jerkhole walked in and claimed it is green. claimed it was green walls and then claimed that everyone else in the room had to prove it was pink, otherwise the walls are green.
>>768786398
That would be correct. The person who actually existed knows more about human beliefs than the imaginary person you're comparing him to.
>>768784990
True, you can define God in such a way that Gods existence is unfalsifiable. But assuming than an unfalsifiable claim must be true is entirely irrational. Look up Russell's Teapot.
>>768786744
>implying douglas adams knows more about humans than their creator
>>768786841
you have to demonstrate that there was a creator first
>>768786841
>>768786905
... but you cant.
>>768786841
Correct. And by the same reasoning, though I'm no expert on holiday traditions, I know more about Christmas than Santa Claus does.
>>768786905
you have to demonstrate that douglas fucking adams' representation of humanity has anything to do with the facts of its divine cause and creation, faggot.
>>768786470
Exactly.
>>768786521
Omnipotence is a paradoxical term. Is it possible for an omnipotent being to create a being more powerful than itself? Is it possible for an omnipotent being to create an amount of matter so larger that it itself cannot move it?
More here for those interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNQkSJXUzjo
>>768786807
If you can define God, then God is an artificial construct created by a human mind, regardless of the definition you come up with.
>>768787079
that was where I was going with me asking about the nature of this so called god
>>768786061
So as the JudicialExecutiveWorldwide and i dont see you saying /pol/ is a bunch of retard's...
Plus you cannot prove he is unreal...
>>768786533
Yes but you could make the argument that since He's the Father of mankind, that He can see the lessons we need to learn better than we can. Maybe He thinks this is one of those lessons, a challenge we have to face and overcome on our own without help from anyone else. Maybe He realizes that we'll just keep doing this shit over and over again if He keeps bailing us out.
>>768787033
stop getting mad because you're losing this debate, kid.
if god exists i think hes got some explaining to do
>>768786533
God loves us, but he doesn't love the fleshbodies that we are currently tasked with occupying
>>768786559
Absolute certainty is impossible except in trivial cases of definition. These trivial cases exist because within a framework that allows for such definitions. To fully define something beyond that framework requires a new broader framework. God is defined as beyond our framework, and any framework we can conceive. Thus God cannot be known.
>>768786679
It is possible for someone to be proven a pedophile, it is not comparable.
>>768787230
you just lost the debate because you have resorted to ad hominem attacks instead of defending your position.
>>768787283
prove it
>>768786807
I never said it must be true because it's falsifiable. I said the question shouldn't be treated the same way as questions which are trivially falsifiable.
>>768787321
I haven't used a single ad hominem attack, You have no idea what you're talking about.
>>768787215
If you have twelve children and you let four of them murder four of the others, you could make the argument that you're teaching the surviving children an important lesson, but you'd probably fail to convince a jury.
>>768787079
Paradoxes usually only prove our own ignorance. You should try looking up the ones we've solved.
all atheists are fags. prove me wrong.
protip: you can't.
>>768786711
That's easy, it's just a question of defining terms. If you can agree on an interval of wavelengths of light that you would classify as green and pink, you can simply test if the walls are green or pink. Anyone making a claim about the real world, not just what they perceive, but the world we all live in, should be able to back that claim up. And it should be backed up with something better than "All the other kids at school think so too!".
If you think you have an insight into the real word, you should be able to make predictions about it. Sticking with the colour metaphor, if you think the wall is green, you should be able to predict something about the wavelengths of light that are reflected by the wall.
>>768787309
>God is defined as beyond our framework, and any framework we can conceive
as soon as you say "God is..." you have just defined what god is, and by your very statement "beyond our framework, and any framework we can conceive" so you have just contradicted yourself. Circular reasoning.
>>768787426
>stop getting mad
you are using my personal temperament as a argument against my position. that is the very definition of ad hominem. i don't physically or personally represent the position i am defending, so discrediting me on a person basis is a fallacy.
>>768787283
If I told you I love you, and that I really want you to love me too, so you need to do all these things I'm telling you to do, otherwise I'll put you somewhere where you'll be tortured and burnt for eternity, you'd probably get a restraining order.
>>768786679
How do you remember to breathe?
>>768787660
That's not even close to what ad hominem means.
>>768787460
that's exactly the kind of shit that Christians used to think was "OK".
>cane and abel
Do we seriously need to be following the ideas of people who think murder is OK under the right circumstances?
>death penalty
>>768787704
I dont have to remember, Its a result of the autonomic nervous system.
>>768787622
Stating a property of God is not defining God in a way that exists beyond our framework. Stating all properties of God is, as it would ultimately define God.
God is a human creation
>>768787480
A logical paradox can't be solved. You have to redefine your terms and start over. Apologists typically redefine "omnipotent" to something more fluffy, that ultimately waters down the term to the point that everyone can be said to be omnipotent.
>>768784149
you prove you right i didn't make the fucking thread you did. DO IT YOU FAGGHET
>>768787682
you're just another soul in a MeatSuit though
it's a fair warning, being seperated from God's love would be torturous, especially after you die and realize it was all real and that he no longer wants anything to do with you
if he exists why haven't we seen him
>>768787817
That is exactly what it is. That is precisely what defining a thing is.
>>768787752
Actually, Cain was punished for murdering Abel, marked by God and exiled. Genesis makes it pretty clear that murdering one's brother out of jealousy is wrong.
>>768787713
prove it, faggot.
>>768787846
A logical paradox is usually solved by revealing a false premise.
>>768787325
not the replier but its fairly easy...
Our body's as complex as they are just gonna get buried or ashed if not your body rots and there's a proof that the body stays soul leaves the body when you die
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment
also if you're gonna say: retard anon on the same wiki there's a criticism where it says...
>He tested for animals and they don't lose it just like it says in every book... Except pajeet one
>>768787405
You're right, it shouldn't It should be rejected out of hand for being such a malformed proposition. Claims about the world that are not unfalsifiable can either be right or wrong, and either answer will make us smarter. An unfalsifiable claim gives us nothing.
>>768787987
insult: "your mom sucks nigger cocks."
ad hominem:"your mom sucks nigger cocks therefore your argument is invalid."
see the difference?
God doesn't exist in this universe/dimension, I'll asume of his existence to be beyond our comprehension, therefore we can't prove his existence
>>768787979
I haven't read it so I wouldn't know.
That'd be a good AMA to be honest. A child raised in a purely areligious household. My mom very specifically kept me away from this subject until I was old enough to decide for myself.
>>768788087
your mom sucks nigger cocks.
also, your argument is shit.
>>768787946
You want to argue the definition of definition? No need. My argument is based on one particular meaning, whether you agree with it as commonly accepted or not. In my argument defining God means knowing God's nature in its totality.
>>768788045
from the same article you just posted...
"the experiment was flawed because the methods used were suspect, the sample size was much too small, and ...
>first chapter
>talking snake
People DIED for this shit.
>>768788169
above...
>>768788003
Then please, enlighten me. What premise is wrong here:
Can an omnipotent being create an amount of matter so large that it itself can't move it?
That is a completely logically structured, and well-defined question. That omnipotence is paradoxical is not a new thing, btw. Apologists have been struggling with it for a long time, and as I've said they usually resort to redefining the term "omnipotent".
>>768788148
so you dont understand the difference? Not surprising since you believe in magical sky Patriarchs.
>>768787906
The existence of a soul is just as unprovable as the existence of a god.
Since there are so many miraculous examples of God's love and intervention described in the Bible, yet now that everyone's got a cellphone camera handy, he's suddenly gotten out of the miracle business, it seems reasonable to conclude that some of those things might have been made up. Loch Ness monster sightings are way down lately too.
I doubt being separated from God's love after death, if one had a soul, would be much different that living here without it.
>>768788150
Explain to me how you define something that is by your definition indefinable?
>>768788169
also is it on wiki was much too???
The Bible as it is, is just a tale of mere mortals that has been modified by the church for their own convenient way
>>768787782
Well thank the heavens for that ay? ;)
>>768788047
Exploring things that are unknowable or unfalsifiable often leads to new discoveries. Scientists do it all the time for this reason. When talking about such subjects scientists freely speculate rather than discard them out of hand.
>>768788210
so many people have had so much horrible shit done to them, I dont think any good can outweigh the negative IMHO.
>>768788312
>Loch Ness monster sightings are way down lately too.
The Lock Ness Monster causes miracles! You heard it here first!
>>768788124
It'd seem you still absorbed some religious stories through normal socialization as you grew up, even if you didn't hear about them at home. I'd suggest actually reading the Bible to find out what it really says, and then draw whatever conclusions you want to about it. At this point, it's like having an opinion on Shakespear based on all the Bugs Bunny cartoons you watched as a kid.
>>768788392
haha yea, thank Odin for evolution.
>>768788507
Russell Glasser was raised secular.
>be me
>christian from cradle to grave
>wait for sex until marriage
>don't do drugs or go to parties
>do nothing fun to get in to heaven
>die at 28
>unmarried, never even seen a tit or plunged weiner into a wet pussy
>nothing happens
>simply cease to exist with no heaven.
>mfw wasted life because of a jew from 2000 years ago.
>>768784626
Maybe
>>768784681
kek
>>768788585
Okay. I don't think he was the poster I was replying to though...
>>768788636
>mfw wasted life because of a jew from 2000 years ago.
a story that likely didn't even happen.
Believing in gods is simply and antiquated and only the weak still need to believe in fairy tales.
>>768784300
That's an old cunard. I understand the nature of Pluto, Spanish, and unicorns. I have no reason to believe in that. You'd need to present evidence that it exists. I can provide evidence that God exists. As soon as I do that the burden shifts to you to tell me why my evidence isn't sufficient.
>>768788299
I suppose you could redefine omnipotent, since few people actually claim God's total omnipotence, merely his omnipotence within our universe. I think it would be more interesting if one of the other premises fail though: Perhaps God is not one being but two, and so can both make it and life and and not make it and not life it at the same time. Or maybe God can change the nature of matter itself, or breaks the concept of "moving." - there are many premises in such a paradox. I don't claim to have the answer, I just know how paradoxes die.
GOD IS DEAD
ALL GODS ARE DEAD
>>768788507
Well I have read some parts, but I ended up going down this whole "dead sea scrolls/gnosticism" shtick and I got distracted to say the least.
You can't escape all the Biblical references. It's flat out impossible. So I know enough to get the jokes but not necessarily all the vivid details that make the parabol so...um...impactful? etc
>>768788636
Well, if you cease to exist, you won't be there to regret not doing more with your life.
Whether someone believes in life after death or not, it's still a good idea to live your life to the fullest while you can.
>>768784149
you said to prove you wrong, and that i cant at the same time, there is no response if i am to listen to you
come on quints
>>768784149
There's nothing to prove wrong about, I also believe he exists. I am a Roman Catholic, amen brother.
>>768788585
>secular
that's the best word for it. tmyk, thank you anon.
>>768788404
No, when scientists speculate on the nature of the world without being able to test their hypotheses, they tend to argue on the basis of Occam's razor, and as such they most often look for the solutions that are the most mathematically elegant.
This is what we see in the different interpretations of quantum theory.
God, however, is an infinately complicated solution, and also has the downside of being unfalsifiable. That's why God is Russell's teapot, and not the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.
This all comes down to the philosophy of science, and religious claims do not come out looking good when subjected to this approach.
>>768788888
is no one going to comment on the fact that I just called my fucking quints?
>>768788888
GOD EXISTS THERE YOU HAVE PROOF
>>768785633
How do you know it's definitely not?
>>768788801
wheres your evidence?
XD nowhere obviously
>>768788345
None of us can, we're bound by limited frameworks. For understanding to be had it must account for an infinite number of frameworks, most of which are beyond our knowledge.
>>768785130
Then what traits does god have?
>>768788636
topkek
>>768788828
stfu edgefag
there just never was a god to begin with, just man, nihilism is fucking dumb, just live life in a way that makes everyone happy
>>768784149
You can neither prove nor disprove God because God is a concept, the idea of god is littered with so many paradoxes, logical fallacies and flaws that it is nigh impossible for them to exist. However due to the fact that God is a rather abstract concept, those arguing for it can simply make the argument "they can do that because they're God, logic does not apply to them". Like that one kid in the playground that godmods his characters in games, it's just more fun to walk away and do something else.
>>768789173
its a Nietzsche quote dumbass
>>768784149
Define god first
>>768787079
Just because an omnipotent being CAN create a being more powerful than himself (which would somehow be more infinite than itself) doesn't mean that it HAS to. It definitely has the capability to do so.
>>768789142
god doesn't need a list of traits. god exists outside of the boundries, of his creation, of logic, time and space. attributing a set of traits to god (other than being the creator of the universe) is irrelevant. it isn't even illogical, it is incomprehensible for god to have a limiting set of traits.
OK, everyone seem's to be an atheist i wanna ask you a thing.
What keep's you from killing everyone, stealing, being revengeful (I'm talking eye for a head).
Why leave with the morality from:
>a jew from 2000 years ago.
>>768788636
>>768788707
i dont get atheist actions if your truly atheist blast off Your morality is subjective... Just go on a rape spree and when u get caught just erase yourself... What's keeping you from dying?? Were all doomed to this "prison" plus eternity is feels and passes like blinking
>>768789451
>it isn't even illogical, it is incomprehensible for god to have a limiting set of traits.
thats why it cant exist
>>768788959
Scientists do apply reasoning to their speculations but that doesn't stop them from speculating freely. Further, speculations of God can and have been analyzed in this way. Identify a quality of God: ex he made this universe. Then apply your knowledge of the universe to make better targeted speculations on God. Apply Occam's razor by ignoring the more complicated/extravagant speculations. Russel's Claim is about the burden of proof, it is not relevant here. There is no proof.
>>768788888
Quints proves God exists
>>768784149
Which god?
>>768788825
Yes, a paradox of course won't stand if you adjust the meaning of words in such a way that it is no longer a paradox. But I wouldn't call that a paradox dying, I would call that downsizing your claim to avoid the obvious inconsistencies.
I am willing to concede that is is possible (not probable) for an extremely powerful being to exist whom created the universe somehow. Then it's just back to being an unfalsifiable claim.
The only thing I asserted was that an omnipotent god (with the standard definition of the word) is an impossibility because that concept creates logical paradoxes.
>>768789477
is feels damn I really shoulda read from start to finish... Correction, it
>>768789477
>What keep's you from killing everyone, stealing, being revengeful
well what stops you from doing these things? If its because you think you god wont like it thats not morality, thats attrition.
God is a Microwave Rotisserie Chicken in a PiP. Prove me Wrong.
protip: I don't care
if god is present everywhere, he would be present in your fingers while you typed that, if god is present while typing that, that would make god a liar. so for you to type that god exists, god could not be present while you type that(being god that typed that) god would be present in your mind, the thoughts that thought that, your arms and fingers, you would have to be god for the definition of god to be true, but that would make god lie as he typed that. if god typed that, "prove me wrong" would be a command from god, while telling me that i cant would also be a message from god saying i cant. god would be telling me to do something that god says i cannot do, i could only disobey, or fail in the eyes of god. if god is not present in you while that was typed, you are separated from god, therefor in hell. you are either god setting me up for a divide by zero scenario or in hell, by definition
>>768789535
I got quints, I say whether god exists or not...and it certainly doesn't.
>>768788993
because of ALL the suffering any monotheistic god glady sees done upon his disciples, pick any religion, AWFUL horrible things happen to people of all religions, so what, do none of their gods care to do anything for them with their LIMITLESS power?
There is no possibility that there is a kind merciful god that one of the major religions is properly appeasing.
>>768789451
How can we prove if your god exists or doesn't if you can't even define.
It's like the only Quality it has is existance
>>768788866
I read the parts I was curious about, the parts the people I grew up around kept telling me were The One Real Truth. Because, hey, if they really are, that'd be a good thing to know about, right?
I... didn't quite buy it. There's good stuff in there, like telling ancient Israel to wash their hands, years before anybody had discovered bacteria. That's good advice, no argument. But there's all this sacrificing of sheep and stuff that I just didn't get.
I guess what it comes down to, for me personally, logical arguments aside, is that the Bible says God made Adam and Eve, put them in this garden, and gave them one rule: Don't eat from that tree over there. Now God put that tree there, and he made the rule, and if he's at all as smart as the Bible claims, he knew they were eventually going to eat from it. Anybody that's ever been a parent knows what's going to happen.
So God basically invented sin and provided the explicit means to commit it, knowingly, in advance. And when Adam and Even inevitably sinned, they and all of humanity became liable for that sin. Animals were sacrificed to atone for that sin. Jesus, finally, died to atone for that sin. This seems like gross mismanagement at best, or more likely, outright cruelty and unfairness.
That's not the kind of person I want a relationship with, so I don't have a relationship with God. I also don't think he exists, for various other reasons, but primarily, this is my main objection to Christianity itself.
>>768789608
Not only god says it but i understand to keep other's safe i must do it.
>>768789625
>
that post might be of the devil, because it looks like you want to be in hell, or are god wanting to prove that god does not exist, but god could be saying this to me as i myself type this, so who knows what to do
>>768784149
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
>>768789759
>but i understand to keep other's safe i must do it.
there ya go, no gods required
>>768789498
god exists outside of the limitations of the universe. are you a cuck? imagine the universe is your gf, and god is an alpha that you let cum inside her whenever he wants.
>>768789623
You truly care if u didn't care why the fucc did you came into this thread
>>768784433
>99%
your god isn't based on proof, therefore you must prove it exists or else it isn't fact.
>>768789549
The exact specifications of the paradox may not exist as we assume and often we fail to realize
how exact those specifications are. This is a result of ignorance. This is the ignorance that prevents someone from claiming God can't be real based on the paradox.
>>768784149
He exists in all his Noodly Goodness. Selah!
>>768789510
But there is proof. The universe functions in such a way that miracles are not needed for our existence.
And in order to speculate on the nature of God you first have to assume its existence, and make some assumptions on its nature. Also, considering that "God" and "Miracle" can generally be replaced with the word "magic" in terms of epistemology, it is an infinitely complicated explanation, and is blown out of the water by even the most moderate use of Occam's Razor.
>if god is present everywhere, he would be present in your fingers while you typed that, if god is present while typing that, that would make god a liar. so for you to type that god exists, god could not be present while you type that(being god that typed that)
None of this contradicts anything you've said. God exists everywhere so because he exists everywhere, that makes him a liar? That's super crappy reasoning.
>>768789841
>god exists outside of the limitations of the universe
does this god ever manifest inside our universe? If so it has to have an effect on our universe in some measurable way. We see none of this.
>>768789942
occams razor?
okay the simplest explanation is that god created the universe.
>>768789689
Just because he has limitless power does not mean he's obligated to use it on his disciples.
>>768790045
no it isnt
>>768789801
THAT is the point
when your an atheist you don't need to protect everyone just the ones who you know...
I live subordinated because i believe Everyone should get their foot in earth even though i am prob. bad at doing it... The point is this Do you wanna give space to Strange package Muhammad or do you specifically care about know one's...
>>768789608
This.
I'm kind because I want to, not because I'm afraid of afterlife.
Also, there are plenty of believers that rape and kills (some even work at the chruch)
>>768789669
Who the fuck are you? I don't see you with quints, impostor.
>>768789994
tide goes in, tide goes out. boners go up, pussies get wet. cum goes in, babbies come out.
you cant explain that.
>>768789798
true shit
>>768789994
Bethlehem, a couple thousand years ago, apparently. Seemed to make an impact? Not sure exactly what all that was about though - we've got a lot of really old, sort of conflicting reports about what went on.
>>768789975
>God exists everywhere
everywhere would also encompass everywhere in time as well, If he exists in all time then he knows the outcome of every situation.
Congratulations you just debunked freewill.
you niggas need some math.
here's a mathematical proof for Gods existence.
yes. there's a definition for God in the proof as well.
see pic for proof.
Its Godels proof, look it up.
>>768790091
>when your an atheist you don't need to protect everyone just the ones who you know...
why the fuck would you not want to protect people if you're an Atheist? That makes fuck all for sense.
>>768790140
tides go in and out, we can't explain that?
XD I learned that shit in middleschool
are the people who are still Christians just straight up retarded?
>>768789742
>There's good stuff in there, like telling ancient Israel to wash their hands, years before anybody had discovered bacteria. That's good advice, no argument.
Exactly. Medical science can seem like "magical blessings" to a bunch of desert dwelling peasants.
>This seems like gross mismanagement at best
pic related
>he knew they were eventually going to eat from it
Exactly. Which is why the whole thing is bullshit. That's the first thing you have to accept as absolutely true, that God made Adam and Eve original sin blahblahblah. Without believing that, you can't go on to believe that Jesus died for that sin in particular, And on and on. It all hinges on this story where a supposedly omniscient being was stupid enough to put an apple on a tree, tell them not to eat it, and genuinely believe that they wouldn't.
>>768790107
You prefer to give your good life to stealing nigga's and persons who truly hate you?
where do you live?(going obviously to commit a ad hominem)
>>768790199
>Positive properties are possibly exemplified
Is it?
>>768790181
I'm not here to debunk freewill, you just proved God exists
>>768789942
The universe also functions in such a way that we cannot provide its cause. It does what you yourself call miraculous and there is no explanation for how it came to be. You call that proof? I call it more questions.
>assume its existence, and make some assumptions on its nature.
Yes, that's theoretical work in general.
>considering that "God" and "Miracle" can generally be replaced with the word "magic" in terms of epistemology, it is an infinitely complicated explanation
They can also be replaced by "simulation" and "glitch" - this doesn't make it more complicated. These are words we use to help us understand.
>Blown out of the water by even the most moderate use of Occam's Razor.
Try it then
>>768789477
A mix of laws, conscience, ethics, morality and being a fucking normal person.
I think a better question is, will you really go to heaven if everything your doing is out of fear or a feeling of obligation based on fear?
>>768789884
We are not talking about ignorance. Ignorance doesn't even come into play. We are talking about what is logically possible. It is logically impossible for a being to be omnipotent, just as it is impossible for a married man to be a bachelor, or for 2 plus 2 to equal 5. Again, with these claims you could also play the definitions game, but that doesn't resolve the paradox, you are just rephrasing the sentences so they no longer refer to the paradox. It's a rhetorical trick, not a resolution to the paradox.
An omnipotent being can't exist with the standard definition of that word, because the concept of omnipotence is a logical impossibility. If that omnipotence is necessary for your definition of God, then your God is a logical impossibility. If you have some other definitions of either the word "God" or "Omnipotent" then this does not apply. But in any case, you have to downsize you God to make him logically consistent.
>>768790091
atheist here, I don't really have much ties to my family, but I hate to see any humans suffering, any race or region. I wan't to do everything I can to stop human suffering however it manifests.
>>768790416
Why does it have to follow logic? Something man made
>>768790357
lol no stupid, I just showed that by your Omnipresence logic either God is Omniprent OR freewill doesnt exist, which by proxy debunks you having agency to sin.
keep up
>>768790276
Since I'm shit at explaining myself here it goes:
>Nietzsche
Basically this people don't have a soul it's just survival there's nothing special about the human were just mortal and weak being's...
I can't even understand why atheist hate god so much but then celebrate Christmas... Its like going to a birthday party of the biggest douche in town just to get cake...
>>768788888
>>768788979
I will. checked
>>768790045
No, that explains nothing. Just because it's the shortest sentence doesn't mean it's simple.
That's like claiming the simplest answer to the question "How does a computer work?" is "Magic!". It's a short answer, but it's infinitely complicated, because nothing is actually explained in that answer.
>>768790492
atheist here I want them to suffer
>>768790416
>We are talking about what is logically possible.
You clearly have no idea what that is. You gave me trivial cases of logic, things which define themselves within a system. You do realize we're talking about God right?
>It's not resolving the paradox!
I never said it was. I'm saying most paradoxes die because there's no reason to resolve them, they don't represent our reality.
>>768790601
Why does an omnipotent being have to follow a man made construct like logic?
>>768790605
>I can't even understand why atheist hate god so much but then celebrate Christmas
well first of all there is no god to hate
second, Christmas was originally a pagan holiday, not christian
third, I like getting/giving present. Its not a christian holiday, its a consumerism holiday
>>768790348
...you didn't follow the proof did you? look at axiom 4 - the necessity of 'all' you seek, is located in there.
read the proof again, you go down one 'road', and it leads to 'possible God', but expanding upon a being of 'all positive', leads to Gods existence.
>>768784149
God existed butcher it doesn't exists anymore.
Prove me wrong
>>768790621
finally someone believes in me
>>768790605
>atheist hate god so much
I mean.... I don't really hate the tooth fairy XD
while im at it, could someone disprove the existence of the tooth fairy for me? thx in advance
>>768790181
doesn't matter if he exists or not, free will doesn't exist because everything is caused by something else. since your entire body and consciousness is powered through chemical reactions, those reactions were caused by something, that something being stimuli, changes in your environment.
>>768790693
so he's omnipotent now, huh?
ok then, can god create information that he does not or can not know?
>>768790648
god I hate sadistic little privileged cunts
>>768790938
I am a black disabled jew, in no way privileged
>>768790492
Then why aren't you a Christian even though you think Jesus was just a philosopher and god doesn't exist, You can still believe or follow his message...
There's a hole film about that I'm a pleb at films but i know there's one who portraits Jesus as an normal civilian who had a different idea
>>768790885
>free will doesn't exist
agreed, and if freewill doesnt exist praying, sinning, you eternal future are alll not in your control so if hell does exist you have no choice if you're going or not. This makes that god evil.
>>768790772
I can't disprove god ever existed....
could you mayB prove that he existed in the first place.... like you know, this whole fucking thread is about......
The evidence of it is in the typological relationship between the Gospels and Josephus' "wars of the Jews," and between Paul's epistles and Tacitus' "annals."
Christians are already familiar with the Moses/Jesus typology of the book of Matt, Google "Jesus the new Moses" for more on that. What Christians don't realize is that where the Moses/Jesus typology ends, at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, the Jesus/Titus typology begins. Every single event in Jesus' ministry is a darkly comic version of events described in "wars." A SEQUENCE of more than 2 dozen parallels between the two works.
A few examples in sequence:
Jesus, at the shores of the sea of Galilee, calls men to follow him and become "fishers/catchers of men."
Titus, at the shores of the sea of Galilee, defeats rebels led by a Jesus, calls his men to follow him and spear/catch defeated rebels still floating in the lake, thus turning his men into literal fishers/catchers of men.
Jesus travels to Gadara and encounters a legion of demons who possess a man. Jesus commands the demons into a heard of swine who rush down a steep hill and drown in the Jordan.
Titus' army travels to Gadara and encounters a legion of rebels (Josephus refers to their leader as a demon who infected his men.) With expert command of foot and horse the rebels are forced down a steep hill where they tumble into the Jordan and drown.
Jesus, son of a Mary, in Jerusalem, at passover, tells his followers to eat his flesh and drink his blood. A human passover lamb.
A starving mother named Mary, in Jerusalem, at passover, slays her son, roasts and eats half of him. A human passover lamb
Outside Jerusalem Jesus and two others are crucified. Joseph of Arimathea asks Pilate and is granted permission to let Jesus' body down from the cross. Jesus survives.
>>768790922
>so he's omnipotent now, huh?
>ok then, can god create information that he does not or can not know?
Just because he can does not mean he has to.
>>768791074
Outside Jerusalem Josephus bar Mathias (notice similarity in names) sees three of his former friends on crosses, with tears in his eyes goes to Titus who orders they be let down. One of them survives.
This typology on its own is more than enough evidence to say without any doubt Jesus was created by the Flavians, but there's a lot more. There are a number of literary puzzles that offer more proof (the puzzle of the empty tomb, the puzzle of Decius Mundus, etc...) There is also another sequence of parallels between Paul's letters and Tacitus' "annals."
Also the influence the Flavians had in the early church. The first non-fictional pope was a Flavian. The first Christian catacombs were financed by a Flavian (sister or niece of Domitian, Domitilla,) who incidentally is also a saint.
There is also the absolute lack of any evidence of Christians anywhere in the empire prior to 70AD, no inscriptions, no art, no grave markings, no carved symbols, no writings, no comments by any historians, no churches, absolutely nothing. At the end of the Flavian dynasty, 25 years later, we find all of those, in every single province of the empire. Only one group had the ability to do that. Only one group wouldn't
>>768790885
>everything is caused by something else
Everything in our universe is. We don't understand consciousness, let alone know it only exists within our known universe.
Moreover, have you considered that we live in an optimal universe for free will? We have causality, such that our will can be excreted. It is not necessarily a prison.
>>768791091
so he can create information that he cant know?
that marks off omniscient AND omnipresent
one more to go...
>>768791034
Well im a good human being, I don't need to be told il be tortured forever if im not...
If you would do horrible things to humans without believing that, guess what, your not actually a good person
>>768789842
I posted in it from the index view
>>768791189
>Moreover, have you considered that we live in an optimal universe for free will
we just proved freewill cant exist. pay attention
>>768791095
have been killed for trying to do that. That group was the Flavians and their allies
/thread
>>768790199
Every line starting with A is an axiom; a thing that we are to assume is true in the context of the proof. As presented, this simply means that if all of those axioms are true, the conclusion must also be true. That said, the five axioms presented in this proof are presented with no evidence, no proof of their own, and to me they don't appear self-evidently true. I'd require a more concrete explanation of these axioms to accept this.
>>768790367
Nope, now you are operating with the God of the Gaps. As we unvail more about the nature of the world, it creates even more questions. That's only natural. We have now pushed back our knowledge of the universe to within a tuiny fraction of the first second of the big bang. That is where you have currently made your God reside. But what will you do when we get a theory of quantum gravity and can explain that first fraction of a second, and maybe even the cause of the universe as we know it?
What you are suggesting is replacing the open questions with an assumption of a being with agency who did it all, and without any evidence we should speculate on the nature of this being? This is where Occams Razor comes in: There is no need to do any of this. There are already several models which do not require any magic.
But we also have a philosophical reason for not presupposing God: Every time in our History when we have thought we have met the end of the natural world and the supernatural must now be responsible, we have been wrong. To the point that God is now confined to within a Planck second of the big bang.
You know, Sam Harris is a really cool dude.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM
just wish he'd stop talking about free will
>>768791219
Again, just because he can doesn't mean he has to. Even if he did, it would still be possible because he can. Also, I'm not sure why you're marking off anything like you won your argument
>>768791296
Within our known universe sure. But no one has proven our consciousness, the origin of our will, is totally bound by causality. If some aspect of it were to not be causal in nature, to perhaps exist in another dimension or universe, then free will would exist here, in a place where it miraculously matters.
>>768791434
if he CANT by definition it is not omnipotence, why is this so hard for you to comprehend?
>>768790522
That's a cop out
>>768784149
Actually the hurden of proof is on you. There is no evidence any god exists so until there is concrete evidence the conclusion is there are no gods. You must provide evidence of something existing not evidence proving it's lack of existence. Learn to science christfags.
>>768791544
I never said he can't, he can, he just would not have a need to do so
>>768791579
the god of unreason and illogic
>>768790761
My problem occurs before axiom 4 such that you don't even reach 'possible God'
>>768791579
So is forcing something limitless to have a limit
you cant proove that god exists either.
>>768791630
>Again, just because he can doesn't mean he has to
>JUST BECAUSE HE CANT
>>768791627
242 replies into the thread, this anon assumes nobody's mentioned burden of proof until now.
>>768791049
Something started the universe, and I call that god.
I just don't believe that it exists anymore and you can't prove it does
>>768790199
That's not math. That's symbolic logic. It was designed to look like math.
>>768791630
and if he can he isn't omniscient because there is something he doesn't know. lol oh that logic thing is a motherfucker huh
>>768791725
I didn't bother reading the thread honestly. Just making sure to drop in and bust a truth bomb on the moronic op.
>>768791698
Ah, for the information he can't know idea. Yeah, I still think it's valid to say an omnipotent God can do that even if it breaks your logic
>>768791841
Why are you using a man made construct like logic to pigeonhole a limitless being?
Heres what I wanna know... why can't your gods do ANYTHING?
It appears they have NO influence on this world
>>768791924
im demonstrating that your "limitless being" can be defeated using simple logic.
also how do you define a "limitless being"?
>>768784149
thank you for this great atheist thread btw
god hates gay sex, and everyone has gay sex these days, and even more people support it. I think that god would be fed up and start killing the gays at this point if he existed, because theyre corrupting his followers with their gay
>250 replies
god tier bait
>>768792016
Again, you're trying to put a limit on something that has no limits. If you don't know what having no limits means, then I'm not sure anyone can help you
>>768791336
nigga. you need some more math.
look up Godels proof on the existence of incompleteness. called, the incompleteness theorem. there are many results from it, but the most important, at least to me, is that any system of truth must be built upon at least one axiom, or to be put another way, there exists no system of truth that doesn't require an axiom.
>>768791404
>But what will you do when
God is by definition beyond our universe and knowledge and will always reside there. It has been mathematically proven that there will always be unknowns.
>with an assumption of a being with agency who did it all
I speculate on this and other possibilities yes. In the grand scheme of things it's not unlikely. The simulation hypothesis offers plenty of simple logical support for the concept.
>The supernatural must now be responsible
I make no claims like this. I look for God in the unknowable because God is defined as Unknowable. I do not use God to explain the unknown as not all that is unknown is unknowable.
>>768784409
Hold it! That is an argument. We have absolutely no need to argue that god doesn't exist because that is a negative statement. When you try to make a positive statement, you need to use proof. Basically, no one can "proove" god doesn't exist, but why would we need to?
>>768784433
Like the nonexistence of pangaea
>>768791654
umm, you're not following the proof correctly then. i don't know what else to write.
>>768792125
I literally just demonstrated your gods limits.
and no I want YOUR definition of limitless so I can spank your fairy tale believing ass further with logic
I like to think that when the Bible says that God created mankind in his image, it means that he made us with self-awareness, self-determination, and free will, like him. Rather than meaning that God also appears to be a type of primate.
If God is omniscient and already knows everything we'll ever do in life, but refrains from intervening because he chooses to allow us free will, that might explain why serial killers and such are permitted to exist, and why God doesn't rain food from the sky for starving children in Africa to eat.
>>768792304
do people go to hell?
>>768792304
He also created gays and niggers and pedophiles
god a gay pedo nigger
>>768790683
>You do realize we're talking about God right?
Special Pleading.
> never said it was. I'm saying most paradoxes die because there's no reason to resolve them, they don't represent our reality.
There is a reason paradoxes don't represent our reality... And that's because that which is logically impossible cannot be represented in our reality! A married bachelor cannot exist just as an omnipotent being cannot.
If your resolution to these paradoxes is "Yes God COULD create an amount of matter so large he couldn't move it and he COULD create a being more powerful than himself", then God is not omnipotent, and if he couldn't do those things then he isn't omnipotent either.
You're argument now seems to be: "Well he wouldn't try, so why bother?". First of all, now you're claiming to know the mind of your God. Second of all, the term "omnipotent" does not describe what someone does. It describes what they CAN do. It's all about potential power, and not necessarily about it being expressed in actions.
It's equivalent to me telling you my car has two top speeds. One is 200 kmph, and the other is twice the speed of light. Both can't be true, but I doubt you would accept me brushing off any complaint with "well I choose only to drive 120 anyway, but both topspeeds are still simultaneously correct.". That is a logical impossibility about potential power, just as the paradox is with God. My car would be impossible, just as an omnipotent God would be.
>>768792299
You didn't demonstrate anything. All you said was simple logic, which is putting a limit on something limitless.
>>768792473
demonstrate that you god is limitless
>>768792473
demonstrate how you KNOW your god is limitless
>>768792366
I wouldn't know. I haven't died yet, and unlike Tokyo or London or other places I've never been, the afterlife isn't easily looked up on Google.
>>768792589
Demonstrate how you know it's not?
>>768792635
>I wouldn't know
and yet you're speaking to the nature of a thing you cant define or demonstrate? Thats a pretty weak position.
>>768792537
Demonstrate that it is not
>>768792698
I was there at the big bang: prove I wasnt
see how that reverse in burden of proof works?
>>768784149
God existed, then he died. We are the maggots in his celestial rotten corpse.
