explain to me scientifically, why is this not murder?
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
explain to me scientifically, why is this not murder?
>>768012716
Is that popcorn shrimp ?
>>768012716
The fact that that's not really a person until it can survive outside the womb is a good starting spot. After that point you have a much stronger case for rights being applied, before not so much.
murder is killing a person
abortion is removing an unwanted piece of a woman body
is that simple
Huh, so that’s what a fetus really looks like
zygote/fetus is not a person, it does not have personhood, therefore it is wrong to confer the rights of a person onto this...thing
very simple Bioethics 101 stuff
>>768012716
A seed is not a tree.
>>768012860
why is survivability a prerequisite for humanity?
>>768012908
Waitt thats not popcorn shrimp ?, oh god wat have i done.
>>768012977
a child is not an adult
>>768012860
>that's not really a person until it can survive outside the womb
Arbitrary and subjective.
>>768012860
than can you explain to me how killing a pregnant woman results in a double homicide if this is true?
>>768012716
Technically I don't even consider murdering children murder. Whenever you see the news they make extra sure to mention how many children died in an accident or something. Big fucking deal. It hasn't lived yet, and it's got no good memories of life and experiences the way an adult does. It's nothing more than a family pet like a dog or a cat, worthless and we can make more anytime we want.
>>768012895
A fetus is a person you fucking idiot.
>>768012716
Is muerder?
>>768012961
Really, so why is it a double homicide when you kill a pregnant woman?
>>768013131
hivemind bro
>>768013083
>>768013095
t.childless channer.
>>768013083
Different ethics, the woman probably wanted the child and so you killed off 'the possibility to have the child grow up'.
With abortion the woman actually doesn't want the possibility of the child growing up.
For me you are only a 'human' once you start breathing, so at birth.
>>768012998
>Why is the sole thing that's keeps specicies alive the thing that makes us who we are
I knew I'm retarded but holy shit you're giving me a run for my money today
>>768013177
I care about my own children. I couldn't care less about yours, though.
>>768013224
This
Check the SKIP arguments on google or sth, there ethical ways to consider a fotus a children and there are ethical ways which dont
>>768012860
>>768012895
>>768012961
>>768012977
>>768013224
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>>768012961
Yep. This simple. Anti-abortionists are simply too uninformed, illogical, and unwilling to grasp these simple conclusions. That's one reason why almost every ethicist/philosopher is pro abortion (except for the religious pseudo-philosophers and ethicists).
>>768012716
What is much more interesting is that when faced with this contemplation and the resources of the internet your thought was to come to /b/ and ask this question.
>>768013224
what if the father wanted the child but the woman chooses to have an abortion anyways?
also
if you are only human once you take a breath than whether or not you wanted the child doesn't matter, it isn't considered a "human" until it has started breathing according to your definition
so again
why would it be double homicide if it wasn't a breathing "human" yet?
just because she wanted the child, well what she wants doesn't matter anymore, she's dead.
>>768013397
>feelings over fact
>>768013059
Its definitely not arbitrary, defining when something is actually human and not just potentially a human is important when your throwing around the phrase murder.
Its kinda like stealing candy from a child, it isn't really stealing if you just decided at the last second not to give them candy in the first place. The only thing that actually matters is if THEY knew they had candy at all. In the case of abortion because the baby never gains consciousness it is never really robbed of life because it never actually experienced it in the first place.
when a baby really has a life of its own however very subjective I can agree with you on that.
A fotus is a bunch of cells
When u scratch urself, u kill a bunch of cells
Fotus =~ human
>>768013493
>defining when something is actually human and not just potentially a human is important when your throwing around the phrase murder.
its literally everything
>>768012977
A fetus isn't the seed anymore..it's already developing lol
>>768013108
cool, it moves.
>>768012961
They scream when they're ripped apart. Some abortions take place after 26 weeks. At this point there is around an 80% chance that the baby would survive outside of the womb... but not just survive: thrive. 80% chance of having absolutely no negative long term effects of such an early birth. Medical risks are taken on patients with far lower chances of complete success on a regular basis.
Bioethics 101, as you put it, exists so that doctors are able to justify their actions under these circumstances by passing the moral buck.
There are babies killed in abortions that would survive with no long term problems of any kind. This is a fact.
What does bioethics have to say about that? Not much; bioethics relies on the legal definition of what is a person. Legally a person must be born. Ripping it apart before that time is not murder because that person was never born. This is the legal logic that the morally weak hide behind. Just remember that it is a legal logic, nothing more.
I personally have no problem with early term terminations. If the splat of cells cannot feel pain and is not even exhibiting stimulus response then there's no harm - no foul. Many pregnancies do not last past 12 weeks or so. Having a termination then is still morally questionable to many but, realistically, the baby has not formed any dependable methods of supporting its own life.
This does not apply to the ones that scream though. The ones that have developed biological systems that could support itself with the aid of modern medicine and have a significant chance of survival to the point of thriving. Have you seen the videos? The ones with sound? They are indefensible to any who have managed to avoid the brainwashing that is current bioethics.
>>768012977
A sapling needs tending to.
>>768013568
>A fetus isn't the seed anymore..it's already developing lol
checkmate reality
>>768012775
only after frying.
>>768013397
very scientific of you
>>768013131
Most laws that consider the fetus a person actually only apply after certain points, ie 4 months pregnant, 6 months, etc. Just being pregnant, even a few weeks, is usually not enough to have a second murder charge. Again, that's usually done because 1) viability of a pregnancy is important and 2) the pregnancy is almost guaranteed to be wanted.
>>768012716
You know that murder ain't science, right? It's a legal question, not scientifical... It's bit like asking why execution of condemned criminal is not murder, scientifically, or why killing someone in battlefield is not murder. Scientifically. Murder is legal term, not scientific...
>>768013034
you have that analogy wrong
It would make sense if he said "a sapling is not a tree"
but he didn't...
>>768013623
I'm certain you also consider all of this when you step on an anthill or hit a squirrel with your car while driving.
wimmins have freedom of choice to get a nut busted in their cunts then vacuum out the leftovers. They can not exercise freedom of choice prior to the nut gittin busted in their cunts
>>768013421
>what if the father wanted the child but the woman chooses to have an abortion anyways?
Mother's body, so mother decides, too bad daddy.
>why would it be double homicide if it wasn't a breathing "human" yet?
This is wayyyy too deep into the entire ethics of it all, it boils down to: you killed the mother, you killed a person. That alone makes you a murderer.
>>768012895
>removing an unwanted piece of a woman's body
Then a lot of women need to abort their fat.
>>768013105
A baby inside the womb of a woman has the same metabolism rate as the other organs of her, its only after birth that the baby increases its metabolism into a pace suitable for bod odf its size. Effectively this means that before birth you are just removing an unwanted organ.
>>768013631
>the treeseed is growing
>alas it is still below the surface of the earth
is it a tree yet?
>>768013455
>facts
I think you think
kys
>>768013749
>>768013810
move over Shakespeare
>>768013623
With the aid of modern medicine, see here that just doesn't count. its like saying we can keep a braindead person alive with modern medicine.
>>768013862
>found the 15yo
>>768013623
>take place after 26 weeks
Did you know, that late abortions are only allowed if the birth not only would kill the kid but also the mother. Arguing against late abortion would be like: abortion is bad, rather let two beings die. Also at week 21 the survival rate is near zero.
>>768013533
yeah... your agreeing with me? or...
did you see the person I was responding to?
>>768013676
>on 4chin
>science
>reallynigger.jpg
>>768013828
This anon gets it.
>>768012716
I have mixed feelings about abortion.
On the one hand I'm in favour of killing babies, on the other hand I'm against letting women make their own decisions.
>>768013945
agreeing
>>768013105
It's more of a parasite really
>>768012716
>y, those are $0.00?
>>768013533
making it not arbitrary like the guy he was responding to said
>>768013105
Its just a parasite really.
>>768013775
fine daddys wallet daddys choice good look with the kid
>>768012716
>explain to me scientifically, why is this not murder?
Because Democrates say so
>>768013828
The argument against abortion is purely emotional.
>b-b-but it moves and makes sounds
>>768012716
That picture makes me horny.....
>>768013913
>found the faggot
>>768012716
Murder is a social construct. Not a scientific one.
All animals kill all the time.
>>768014132
aww c'mon be honest you are 15
>>768013711
>best answer
>>768014200
No, it is correct, but it is not an answer. OP is obviously a child. So we need to read between the lines on this one.
>>768014192
be honest your fag who wants to be right on so the cool kids will like "it"
>>768014189
I would rather say it is a biological phenomenon. Cats for example not only kill, but derive pleasure from it. Did develops even when they grow up without learning it.
even babies hardly qualify as people
>>768014303
haha holy shit you really are 15 aren't you.
>>768013775
yeah that makes you a murdered of a pregnant woman
not a murderer of a bunch of cells that aren't even considered to be human yet because they haven't taken their first breath
please define "murder"
as far as i know it's the killing of one human by another
can't commit murder, if the victim isn't human
so by the definition that a fetus is not human until it takes its first breath, or is living outside the womb on it's own, than killing a pregnant woman should only lead to a regular homicide not a DOUBLE homicide
its a double standard, abortionists aren't murderers because its just a bunch of cells that isn't human yet
that murdered killed a pregnant woman and deprived the poor fetus of the life it could have lived so he must be charged with double homicide! whether she wanted the child or not.
>>768013623
sir, your logic and reason are not welcome here, these kids just got through with their tide pod challenges, snorting condoms, and burning each other with their deodorant challenge. so please, sir, keep your logic and reason to yourself, kids know better obviously
Because the Gooberment needs people to die
Its over populated already. The gene pool is already fucked with all these liberal / feminist retards walking around. What we need is one huge disaster that would require only the smartest / strongest to survive.
>>768013059
Not at all. There are clear developmental milestones that occur in each trimester. I work in OBGYN and we have never, ever birthed a newborn less than 24 weeks. Almost impossible to ensure they survive. I suggest you explore into this topic a bit more.
a human life is one that is alive and is human
no?
because I don't fucking care
Abortion should be legal until a person reaches the age of 35
>>768014110
so is the argument against putting lead into the bodies of annoying teenagers at a high rate of speed
>>768014534
very perceptive.
>>768014600
and yet...
>>768013623
Illegal after 24 weeks. They don't scream either. Uninformed twat.
>>768014566
Neither do I wan't tennie moms, not retarded kids from 40+ moms
>>768014340
>>768014192
>>768013913
you sure showed him anon
>>768013493
>Its kinda like stealing candy from a child, it isn't really stealing if you just decided at the last second not to give them candy in the first place.
You could say the same for an adult, why would the logic be different for a child?
> it is never really robbed of life because it never actually experienced it in the first place.
You could kill someone at 20 and say, 'well they never missed being 40 because they didn't experience it' - what logic is this?
What about a 1 year old, they havn't exerienced anything and don't know anything, no sense of 'self' etc, can you kill them without it being murder? Someone with severe learning difficulties with no clue of his surroundings, him?
Robbing someone of their potential life is what makes murder so bad isn't it?
>>768014589
Uhm no? They have a conciousness, killing something just because it annoys you is also immoral, not to mention the economical and environmental loss you would cause. During the first 20 years a human being needs an absurd amount of ressource and can only pay back later. So it would be stupid killing one, just because it annoys you, while you could just move to another place.
>>768012998
A sperm is alive. How many of those have you murdered?
>>768013242
I honestly don't believe you're reproduced.
>>768012716
medfag here. Basically (to cut it really short and keep it easy) the nervous system isn't actually complete and consistently functional until the 25-26th week. That amounts more or less to two trimesters. Plus, consider that 95% of abortions are performed during the first three months, and in almost all countries second-trimester abortions are only performed under particular conditions (rape, danger to life of mother). If you take into consideration only the first trimester (12 weeks or so) the fetus neurological development is almost inexistent. The hamburger you will eat tomorrow comes from a pig whose brain is tons of orders of magnitude more developed than that on a 12 weeks fetus. Do you consider killing the pig murder too?
>>768014847
.. a sperm cell is not the same as an individual human life
>>768012716
Because a human in this stage can't even recognize what's going on. the brain isn't far evolved jet
>>768014925
the ending of a human life is murder in cases that does not involve murder or triage
>>768014982
so?
>>768014986
So the US will end us all with their allowed civillian killings?
>>768014102
good luck with the child support bro.
>>768015035
the u.s allows for the termination of individual human lives
>>768015006
so it's not murder if you just tear apart a bunch of organic stuff
>>768014986
>ending of a human life
how can you end something that hasn't happened yet?
>>768014982
same could be said for a severely mentally retarded person
lets just all agree eugenics is the obvious choice and we should just start getting rid of the inferior genes in the pool if we are gonna allow abortion
>>768015006
Who cares about them, they aren't even sentient.
>>768015067
if a 90 year old cant recognise what is going on .. killing them isnt murder?
>>768014926
by your logic it is
>>768014612
yet you're incapable of forming a complete thought?
i can't stand when people think their opinion is obvious like this, especially over the internet.
>>768015079
at what point does a human life begin?
please be absolutely specific
>>768015154
no not at all.. a human life is a life that is alive and contains a human genetic code
>>768015172
its not my fault you miss the obvious,
>>768015131
old people or retards can still feel pain. the embryo on this stage not cause the nerve system isn't evolving on this stage
>>768012716
Abortion is almost always done by taking a couple of pills which in effect enduce labour ,,,,,, they do not cut up babys for removal and neither would they want to given if any matter is left behind then they will have problems on there hands . Pictures such as this are thanks to ectopic pregnancy where the kids growing in the fallopian tube and brings the risk of death to the mother , only answer is to cut out the offending matter ( the kid ) to then give a chance for the mother to further go on and have a child at a later date . CUNTS however will of course use shit like this to purpetuate bullshit of abortion is the death of people and its evil . Its eveil to tell women what they can and cant do with their lives and bodys , you and i have not right to decide what someone else must to and we would be royal cunts to villify them based on what WE consider good for us .
>>768015088
If a retarded person has the mental capacity of a fetus <25weeks, which is the requirement for abortion, then it needs life support to simply not stop breathing. Then you also would be allowed to switch off the machines.
>>768015235
so pain is the standard for the permission of human rights?
>>768015215
>>768015172
>thatsmypoint.jpg
>>768012716
As long as the umbilical cord is attached, a fetus is essentially a parasite stealing nutrients from a host. If the host no longer wants it in their system, they should be able to have it removed. If it can survive outside the womb, great; if not, then it's totally a parasite.
How old are you OP?
How long have you been alive?
I’m pretty sure only living people are alive.
So killing something before it’s born can’t be murder as you’re not taking a life.
>>768015388
a parasite isnt the same species as the host and isnt the genetic offspring as the host.
you sound like you are trying to repurpose the meaning of the word parasite to suit an ideological position
What is the difference between contraceptive pills and abortion? You are denying the kid the chance of a life in both cases.
>>768015436
this
>>768015423
WOKE
>>768015423
you are alive before you are born, if you have any scientific research to the contrary id be happy to read it
>>768015088
medfag again. not quite so. even the most mentally retarded person has got nociception, reflexes and sensorial aptitude. that is more than enough brain activity to consider it very well alive.
because its not a human being, its not concious, its worth less than animals
>>768015477
How many years have you been alive? You’re counting from your birth date right?
>>768015487
are there medical conditions transitory or otherwise that inhibit nociceptor function and inhibit pain
>>768012716
it is murder but you have right to kill unwanted parasite that invaded you're body
>>768012716
Killing an innocent human being is unethical but isn't it also unethical to force a mother to endure painful labour and to raise an unwanted child?
>>768015516
social convention is irrelevant... your age is not counted from your conception. but it doesn't mean you weren't a living embryo or a living person before you came through the birth canal
To be honest I don't think we can conclude one way or the other whether or not it's murder. Is it murder if you slaughter a cow, for example?
This is not to say that fetuses are cows. Rather: I'm demonstrating where the line for sentience is drawn. And frankly we just haven't done enough research on fetuses to determine whether or not they're sentient.
So it's merely a curiositiy, for now, whether or not this is murder. If we discover the fetus is sentient, then it's absolutely murder. If we discover that the fetus is *not* sentient, then, well, it probably isn't. Of course, we're talking about the *social* definition of murder, here, and not the *legal* definition of murder. Legally abortion is merely a proxy to oppress women in society, and "murder" is the excuse they use, when in reality they have no fucking clue what they're talking about.
>>768015602
if they make the decision to risk pregnancy then they should accept the consequences instead of consent to murder
>>768015608
How do you define living being?
>>768015608
Yes it does, ask anyone how long they have been alive and they will tell you from their birthdate. It’s not social convention is the definition of the word alive.
>>768015673
a separate human genetic code which is alive and will develop into a person is a separate human life
>>768015215
medfag here.
I have been absolutely specific. A human life begins when the brain is functional. You can be totally sure it isn't yet at 12 weeks, and quite sure it is not yet before 22 (theoretical limit is 25 but doctors always apply the "2-3 weeks uncertainty rule", to be completely sure we are always well within th boundary). So, you can pretty comfortably say no human life starts before that point.
>>768015568
>invaded
not sure you are using that word right
it's not like the fetus snuck in after you accepted a trojan horse into your vagina
well okay it kinda did but not in the way i mean
puns weren't intended
>>768015683
so a person a second before they are born is not alive?
>>768015724
You define living by being alive? Then what does being alive mean to you?
>>768015758
so if a 45 year old male is presented to you with no brain function then they are not alive?
>>768015796
i define living by being alive yes
>>768015820
So a bacterium is also living, since it is alive (not inanimate)?
>>768015663
>Is it murder if you slaughter a cow, for example?
No because of the definition of murder
mur·der
ˈmərdər/Submit
noun
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
>>768015882
yes.
>>768015882
now where is your hook
>>768015534
yes, there are. but you still have all the other sensorial abilities, and those still very much qualify you as alive.
>>768012716
oh trust me it is murder but if it has something wrong with it it must be killed but if it is healthy then it must be kept alive
>>768016016
so your senses are what qualify you as being alive?
>>768012716
i don't wish to explain.
it actually IS murder.
>>768012716
Because a fetus isn't a person.
>>768015933
>>768015903
No, hook. Just wanted to show, defining living as being alive is stupid. No one would say, that masturbating is killing something living.
simple answer
don't want a baby
don't have sex, since that's the whole purpose of it, ya know, to reproduce.
>>768012716
Explain to me scientifically, why is this not bait?
>>768016115
defining a living being as alive is stupid?
can I define a stupid being as stupid?
>>768013105
No it's not you fucking bait
>>768016142
if there have been dozens of posts id rather you jump in at a point in the dialogue not the beginning. im sure you understand
>>768015797
yes. that is PRECISELY the definition of death.
the de-facto standard just happens to be 20 minutes of silent EKG, just because cardiac death implies cerebral death.
>>768012716
MURDER
>the unlawful killing of another person
(it is impossible to 'murder' an animal because they are not a person
PERSON
>a person is a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness
(a fetus does not qualify)
>>768013397
People like you should be aborted
>>768016308
Also the fact that by definition, abortion cannot be murder when permitted by law.
>>768013623
Thats no human, it's just a fetus, it's not even a baby. a seed is not a sapling. Just because they are screaming doesn't mean they're human
>>768016300
if you were presented with a patient, 35-year-old male, 189 lbs, that had no discernable brain function but you knew with absolute certainty that he would wake up in a few weeks and the mother wanted to turn off the life support.. what would you do?
>>768016176
You have two problems. First defining something by itself is a common logical fallacy, after highschool you should know that.
Also second, this is no direct problem, but being alive rather is everything not being inanimate. Living usually is used in a sense of higher being.
>>768016539
this is also true
>>768012716
Science needs to use the right definitions. Murder is a legal category, so the science of LAW decides what is murder and what not.
Other than that, of course it is the ending of a human life. No point in arguing that.
It's what laws a society decides to give itself what makes an ending of life a murder.
>>768016692
legal standards ar transitory
>>768016589
Not anon, but easy. Doctor has the last say. But how should the doc know? Rarely potatoes wake up again and then in such a condition, that you think, it would have been better to switch off.
>>768012716
Abortions are best when done for the lulz.
>>768012775
No, but it does taste great battered and fried on a po'boy.
>>768015088
Yep, killing off people is the only way for our race to get less retarded. it's fucking selection, natural selection is taking a bit too long, so why don't we accelerate it
Abortions are good because they send babies to god faster in an overpopulated world.
>>768015477
You're alive, but you don't have human rights. because you're just a cluster of cells. just the same as you can't put human rights on your skin alone
>>768016812
im a doctor,... i think that your mother has no value and should be processed... we might learn something from this
why not?
>>768012716
needs more sauce
>>768016241
I understand what good fishing is
Sentience is not within us until our larvae stage is complete. The larvae stage completes around 1yr. Imo
>birth control
"No! It's degenerate and leads to sin and promiscuity!"
>Abortion
"No! It's murder!"
>Post birth care assistance
"lol we don't care about babies after they're born, idiot."
>>768012716
I dont give a fuck if it murder. Ive had 4 abortions and a handful of miscarriages with a dozen women. The world is overpopulated and none of the girls or me made enough money at the time to support a child. Fuck kids.
>>768017148
Then I can get the opinion of a second doc or sue you. Just because a doc has the last say, doesn't mean you can't fight it. Or do you accept police misstreatment, because you have the say?
>>768013095
>>768013493
>this is what leftists actually believe
>>768013108
Oh i always thought they didnt move in the womb like a dead thing. Youve made me see the light. Faggot
>>768017311
>they have the power in that moment
>>768016589
I find the fact that you needed to add a weight for the patient to be particularly funny.
No braindead patient EVER has woken up. If the brain is dead, you are dead. His mother wants to turn off life support? I turn it off. You cannot kill a dead person, period.
But you cannot presuppose an impossible thing (he will certainly wake up when braindead) to steer the whole discussion towards your goal. And even if we wanted to presuppose such an absurdity, there would be no comparison possible between the fetus and the man. The mas WAS alive at some point before. The fetus never is to begin with.
>>768016768
Irrelevant. "Murder" is itself a legal standard. Using it to justify your ethical position on the issue is rhetorically convenient, but factually incorrect.
Legally, life starts once independent of the mother, death occurs once there is no activity in the brain stem. As a fetus is still dependent on the mother, it's not murder.
Not born yet = not alive.
Can't kill things that aren't alive.
Protip: there's already enough people and abortion is a primarily nigger/minority thing so we don't want these "people" anyway
>>768017418
i "presupposed" a particualr physical condition to emphasise the reality of the situation in narrow terms
no braindead person has ever woken up
but
has fetus?
>>768017439
legal standards are irrelevant.... dont make me explain how
>>768016589
He's dead. Without brain function he is dead and there is no certainty that someone with trauma that severe to their brain would ever wake up, or they would gain back very little brain function. I could count on my left hand all of the times since the 1980's that a human being has come back from that, two of those times they where not the same person when they woke, they brain is all crossed up trying to find a stable function and they don't even know who or what they are.
>>768017532
>has fetus
Are you ESL?
>>768012716
doesn't have conciousness
The same way that this isn't a deforestation device
>>768012716
cus the little nigga cant call the police
>>768012860
So then killing black people who can't survive on their own shouldn't be illegal either?
>>768017657
Well it's a teste popper. Does that count for anything?
>>768012716
No brain waves until 24 weeks
>>768017616
just a little busy..
>>768016055
yep, the ability to perceive stimuli around you and react to them as an organism qualify you as being alive in the strictest sense. your line of argument (that a heavily retarded person is essentially the same as a fetus without a developed nervous system) is never gonna work. there are many neurological functions that even highly retarded individual can perform that a fetus cannot.
>>768016589
>had no discernable brain function
If that guy ever wakes up it would be a fucking miracle, no sane doctor would ever bet on such a thing.
>>768017723
They're not interchangeable or even analogous.
You're talking about people vs a clump or cells. Git gĂ¼d, skrub.
>>768017398
No they don't retard, you always have the power, even if they insist they need your go ahead or complacency to do anything.
>>768017532
the sillyness content of this line of "reasoning" is reaching levels so high I refuse to answer this.
once and for all. a fetus does not "wake up". it STARTS to live (neurologically speaking) at a certain point. before that, there is no person, and hence no crime whatsoever.
>>768017760
What if we made these places that look like abortion clinics and encourage women to wait, tell them they have plenty of time to abort, and prolong it as long as possible so they have no other choice but to give birth. Why aren't they already doing this? They could save so many fetuses from deleteus.
>>768017911
Apparently the anon you're arguing with doesn't understand consent.
It has no consciousness, no memories, no feelings, does not feel pain, does not feel sadness. And growing up in a bad enviroment might be worse.
Exactly like a tree. A tree is alive, sure, but it does not "live". Do you argue against your neighbor cutting down a tree because it is living?
>>768018037
Like a brick wall.
>>768017566
>can't explain himself
Only retards that should've been aborted are anti-abortion anyway, so that's not a surprise, lil guy.
>>768013108
ayy
>>768018017
they are already doing exactely this in the usa with crisis pregnancy centers, unfortunately.
it's chinese breakfast
>>768017275
Evangelicals don't even see the contradictions in their beliefs. lol.
>>768013224
So before birth you can be a giraffe?
Science sure is amazing, unfortunatelly most y'all faggots can't tell science from what you wish.
Meh!
>>768018184
Seriously? Holy hell... that's morbid as fuck. Those pro-life types are positively soulless.
>>768012716
Good read (baby killers will skip this)
>>768018112
>>768018037
Sorry, I forgot, in the US people still believe more in christ than in science. But netherless, if parents refuse, they later get sued for any damage done.
>>768012716
Explain to me why you care if it is? Theres no way you would know if a woman has had an abortion unless she told you. Abortion in no way affects you at all especially if you are against it just dont get one damn im sick of you pro life cunts.
>>768018306
Did you forget your meds this morning? You're just maundering about nonsense at this point instead of trying to present an argument or defend a position.
>>768012716
The fetus is not born yet therefore scientifically it is not a human so it is not considered murder, pretty easy...
>>768018316
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NNpkv3Us1I
Okay, so here's what I think:
1. No unambiguous objective line can be drawn as to when exactly a fetus becomes a person with all of the rights associated with personhood.
2. Killing innocent people is morally wrong and not allowed; all rights people have are predicated on their right to live (cuz you can't bloody well have rights if you don't exist).
3. Because we cannot be certain of when personhood arises we cannot be certain if terminating a pregnancy is murder; The only morally defensible course is to not abort unborn life unless another life can be saved by doing so.
We can debate exceptions such as downs and anencephaly (born without a brain) and such. But when it comes to regular old retroactive-contraception-abortion things are crystal clear. Not permissible unless medically necessary.
>>768018397
You just have no further argument against what I said, it seems.
Your opinions != reality
Sorry, it doesn't matter how much you try, that's not how things work.
The world is overpopulated and children are annoying.
Abortion is a win win
>>768018600
Back this 100%
>>768017532
Reddit spacing
>>768012716
consent to sex isnt consent to pregnancy and the foetus doesnt have the right to use somebody elses organs without their consent
>>768018345
saved for the keks
>>768018306
medfag still. you think you are putting forth something completely absurd with the giraffe thing, but you are actually not. up to a certain (very early point) in embryogenesis you are actually somatically indistinguishable not only from a giraffe, but from all other chordates. of course you are genetically different, but I'm trying to make you understand how aspecifical is the fetus development and how long it takes from human neurological activities to arise.
>>768012860
What if it can still think, feel etc but it wont survive outside the womb.
Just sterilize China, India and Africa and you've solved most of the world's problems
>>768013083
I need you to cite all of the cases where this has happened. Then I need you to cite me all of the cases where double homicide charges were not filed. Then you take a look at the individual circumstances and figure out that in some the fetus was not viable and in others it was.
>>768012716
because for all we know theres no chance of consciousness at that stage
>>768013108
Frankly its just disgusting so its okay to kill it.
Animals eat their babies if there are too many to take care of, abortion is literally the same thing
>>768018772
So the DNA is the same too? Medfag?
>>768018570
medfag. this is what you thik. not what is. what is is that you can be objectively sure no neurological activity is present as 12 weeks. sure as you can be sure the sun will rise tomorrow.
>>768018779
>Using what if scenarios
>>768018818
>forgetting to sterilise the USA
Don't forget where a lot of the first world's problems come from
>>768012716
You can't. You're killing something that is alive from the moment of conception. It's murder.
Period.
>>768018989
Sterilize the Earth it's the only way to save us all.
>>768012716
Because a fetus isn't, by any definition of the word, alive:
Definition of alive
1 : having life : not dead or inanimate
2 a : still in existence, force, or operation : active
b : ing or realizing the existence of something : sensitive
alive to the danger
4 : marked by alertness, energy, or briskness
his face came alive at the mention of food
5 : marked by much life, animation, or activity : swarming
streets alive with traffic
>>768013738
Well, it isn't a seed. It is a fetus. We're not claiming having a period or jacking of is murder, we claim abortion is.
>>768017566
If they're irrelevant, then your position is irrelevant because you have stated it in terms of a legal standard.
Don't feel too bad, being unable to articulate an actual argument beyond "hurrr it's murder" is characteristic of most pro-life mouth-breathers.
>>768018456
How awful, how exactly is this still legal?
>>768012908
I can't believe it's not fetus!
So out of curiosity what do anti-abortionists think of Plan B? Do you consider that murder as well?
Goddamn moralfags i swear
>>768018891
Not the medfag. DNA is still human, it's just that the fetus develops in a way that makes it look like it goes through the stages of evolution. For example, a really young fetus has gills, a tail and a fish like heart, yet lose those traits as it grows
>>768019050
>having life
good thing that fetus isn't growing then. Oh, wait.
>still in existence
Well shit, someone better tell that mother that her pregnant ass is carrying. around air until she gives birth
>>768019214
Gill slits* probably doesn't have actual gills
>>768013108
Looks black. Go ahead.
>>768012716
It can't think, feel, survive on it's own, and doesn't function, look, act, provide, or contribute like a human being. By all rights it's parasitic in nature. Without a host, it will cease development and presuming that the rights of an unthinking, unfeeling parasite who still has many months of development before its heart beats on its own trumps the bodily autonomy of the parent is lazy thinking. Besides, as soon as the kid pops out you people stop caring about it anyway; you just want it to come to term, whether it's born into a good stable family or a black ghetto. You people are the reason we're overrun with faggots, jews and niggers; you won't let them scrap away mistakes. Besides, it's no different than any other medical procedure; you climb a tree and fall off, break both arms, go to the hospital and get it fixed. Drive recklessly, get into an accident, go to the hospital for them to put you back together. Smoke two packs a day for twenty years, get lung cancer, go to the hospital and get chemo.
Your ethics and morality don't hold up if you give it two seconds of thought.
>>768018891
can you read? reread my post, please.
there is genetical difference, but not somatical. this means that until all the gene content has expressed itself a fetus does not possess the neurological traits of a person.
for something to have the same genetical material as a person does not directly constitute a condition sufficient for it to be human. your spit contains alive and genetically human cells, that could, under the right circumstances, be kept alive and multiplying in vitro. does this impy that you are committing murder any time you spit?
>>768018677
>>768019214
You mean to say that we could be born with girls? Cause that'd be cool.
>>768019171
muricans.
>>768019331
Kek, meant gills.
>>768013397
You should feel bad.
>>768019331
It's only on the early fetus, although maybe a genetic mutation could give someone non-functuonal gills at birth. Probably not though
>>768018570
There's nothing wrong with killing <undeveloped> children that you yourself own, if they present an unnecessary hardship to your own living that surmounts your ability to care for them. If they are developed, then you can reasonably disown them instead.
Same reason you don't let in and house the homeless or quarter the army even if people are saying you should.
>>768018677
/THREAD
>>768018892
Okay, so then you're tying personhood to neurological activity. Fair enough. Except neurological activity doesn't lead to any form of objectively verifiable personhood until about 2 years of age. Children fail the mirror-test before this time.
You are saying that the *potential alone* for the level of neurological activity required for personhood isn't enough to deserve protection.
And for the record. Embryo's start developing brains at around 4 weeks old.
Abortion should be legal until they turn 18 years old
All of the pseudoscience being used to define wild philosophies about life and sentience is wrong and unnecessary. It comes down to two decisions, one leads to life and experiences, the other to nothingness and death. If you would make the latter decision for any reason then you are a sub human and a traitor to your own species
>>768014284
If you always speak to a child like he is retarded, always filling the gaps between his lines (and thoughts) he never learns to understand anything but child-like things. I want OP to start growing up since he came here, it's time him to start thinking with his own brains. It's beneficial to all of us anons here. If you don't understand what law is or what science is there's no point answering based on false phrasing of question. Science is exact in form and based on know facts and hypothesis.
You can scientifically define in various ways if human is alive or dead. You can also define scientifically what's the cause of death. If that cause was due human interference or violence you can prove that scientifically too. You may even find scientific evidence to point out person who did that. You can also, scientifically determine whether person was sane or insane or intoxicated when doing that.
But when it comes to a question "is it murder" it is not a science nor scientist can answer that question. That's legal question, determined by judges, lawyers, prosecutors and jury based on law. Law then is not based on science but on political decisions made by government, having it grounds on ethics, morals, holy scriptures and personal reasons of it's writers - not science. Legal questions deal with guilt - if person is guilty or not of breaking the law. Law, on other hand, is very subjective matter. What's legal on other country might be illegal on another and so on. Even same legal case might have different outcome with different judge or jury or in different legal degree. And it has nothing to do with science, only different interprations of same law.
>>768019305
I find this argument to conflate the differnce between a human life and anything living. If we're not gonna value human life, why have laws preventing us from killing each other at all? Yet people are okay with killing those who could not yet do wrong & keep those alive who have. Either it's a human life or not, plus my skin cells die naturally all the time, you gonna try to say I'm murdering my skin cells?
>>768019461
You can't own people. Second: Okay, so at some point in development it *does* become wrong to kill children. When is that exactly? How do you establish that threshold has/hasn't been crossed?
>>768019539
You can't abort it if it is already born
>>768018677
>foetus
Childless britcuck detected.
Nobody has a right to my property either, doesn't stop the government from taxing me.
>>768019655
I am honestly disappointed that someone thought this thoroughly and spoke this eloquently on this topic on this board.
I am humbled to be in this person's presence, and am also absolutely sure that the shit flinging chimps will gloss over it and continue flinging shit.
>>768019593
It's in human nature to kill other humans though, it's through higher level thinking that we got over it
>>768019700
oh man, those religious nuts really did a number on you
Anyone who supports ripping out their offspring piece by piece while it squirms in pain just so that you can freely have sex without consequence, you are a degenerate piece of shit and don't deserve life. Judging that you're on /b/ in the middle of the day you don't have life and you cry yourself to sleep every night wishing you were aborted, hence why you support abortion. You're a miserable fat blob and a complete waste of life. At least those babies had a chance to become a decent person. You on the other hand will amount to nothing. If there's a god you will be judged and I hope sends you to hell as an aborted baby having yourself chopped into bits for eternity.
>>768019785
The government is a higher power who owns the state where you live, a fetus is just a cluster of cells that can develop into a human.
>>768019787
>I am humbled
Fag
>>768019508
"You are saying that the *potential alone* for the level of neurological activity required for personhood isn't enough to deserve protection"
exactely. this is medicine's stance on the subject.
the primordial "brain" that you are talking about is the one that develops right after the initial neural tube formation, and it's only a "brain" in the sense of it's anatomical positioning and embriological destiny. it is made of highly undifferentiated cells (the CNS neurons are the most differentiated cells in the body) that exhibit no electrical activity whatsoever, that are not attached to any peripherical structure and are not capable of any information processing. it's a brain in the same sense to which the genital tubercle is a "penis".
>>768019787
>>768020009
my point is illustrated.
>>768019982
People are just a cluster of cells
>>768012716
I don't consider that to be alive. It has no experience, no self, nothing, it's just a meat shell. It hasn't formed any semblance of being.
>>768013397
What's up with your index finger?
>>768020090
You are a cell cluster with neural capabilities and sentience, a fetus isn't.
>>768020088
Seriously though, who talks like that? Were you bulied in school? Do you consider yourself to be more intelligent than all those around you?
>>you are a degenerate piece of shit and don't deserve life. Judging that you're on /b/ in the middle of the day you don't have life and you cry yourself to sleep every night wishing you were aborted, hence why you support abortion. You're a miserable fat blob and a complete waste of life. At least those babies had a chance to become a decent person. You on the other hand will amount to nothing. If there's a god you will be judged and I hope sends you to hell as an aborted baby having yourself chopped into bits for eternity.
>>768019939
>At least those babies had a chance to become a decent person
I highly doubt someone has a great future ahead if his parents tried to kill him already before he was born.
>>768020156
No John, not even that, not any more. I have evolved to the point where I don't require a fleshy vessel to live.
Why would anyone classify dog food as a murder?
>>768019799
Human vs Human conflict is very subjective and complex, with many different factors and reasons. The act of killing someone before they are alive is a simple thing with simple causes and circumstances.
>>768019677
>You can't own people.
You are at least responsible for the child borne to you. I'd consider that ownership.
For now, I'm under the impression with the others that "surviving outside of the womb" is enough reason for development. IE, you can leave a newborn alone for a day and nothing should happen to it.
If it can fend for itself, then it's mature enough to be a full fledged person.
>>768019939
Glad you have a meaningful opinion. How's that bacon and egg taste?
>>768020263
Because you need to feed the dog that you are training to kill people
>>you are a degenerate piece of shit and don't deserve life. Judging that you're on /b/ in the middle of the day you don't have life and you cry yourself to sleep every night wishing you were aborted, hence why you support abortion. You're a miserable fat blob and a complete waste of life. At least those babies had a chance to become a decent person. You on the other hand will amount to nothing. If there's a god you will be judged and I hope sends you to hell as an aborted baby having yourself chopped into bits for eternity.
>people still reply to bait abortion threads
Only incels and /pol/ think abortion is bad
>>768019939
Actually, being on /b/ at a specific time of day doesn't mean shit (although, since it does to you, maybe what you said applies to you). Reason for this is because you get different time zones (the world isn't just made up of America, Ikr, who knew!) And even within those time zones where it is the middle of the day, people could be browsing 4chan in mobile inbetween doing stuff
>>768020536
>incels
I hope you meant the morally sensitive.
There's no more difference between incelibates and people who fuck thrice a day concerning abortion.
you dont have a soul until you exit the womb
>>768019661
I am not trying to conflate anythig. A human life is different form anything living, but for this difference to exist that human life must first start. And cannot start before the completion of the brain to a certain extent. Period. Up to that point, it's just "life" in the biochemical sense and nothing more.
And your definition of "natural" is the problem you should be most concerned with. What is natural and what is not? Forget the skin cells. IUD contraceptive devices all prevent implantation of an already genetically complete (in the human sens) zygote. Is any woman with a IUD a murderer?
>>768020730
You don't have a soul period. We're all shells to our completely independent neutral clusters.
>>768020730
So are you saying that a machine can not recieve a sole?
Is that school lunch in Japan?
>>768020786
Soul periods sound gross. Would it be like ectoplasm leaving from the surface of your skin? Unless you meant period as '.', in which case, you made a double fullstop. Using 'period' is for a verbal end to a sentence, it doesn't really work out when you type it. More people should realise this.
>>768020846
Actually, there are several man-made machines out in the world now that could be considered to contain souls.
They simply aren't programmed to make full use of them.
