Clearly murder
Why do people feel its right to decide who gets to live and die?.. no one has absolute freedom
isn't that a slippery slope?
Why do abortionists always assume religious significance to this issue when its a scientific and legal issue?
Explain to me when a human life begins and when it is therefore endowed with human rights, to a degree of precision such that no child will slip through the cracks?
>>767885445
>Explain to me when a human life begins and when it is therefore endowed with human rights
18 years old
until then, abortion should be legal
>>767885445
As a society we decide who gets to live or die every day. Grow up.
The bottom line however, is that a woman's right to police her body trumps your feelings on the matter.
>>767885662
we dont legislate to kill the innocent. in parts of the world where we do it is wrong.
bodily autonomy is a myth and is trumped at any rate by the right to life
explain to me when a human life begins and when it is therefore endowed with human rights, to a degree of precision such that no child will slip through the cracks?
you're just choosing the version of reality that seems less disturbing to you because you cant face facts..
grow up
>>767885584
at least thats honest
Why do most pro-lifers out there seem to think people are getting abortions extremely late into their pregnancies?
Most of the time the abortions happen when the girl finds out she's actually pregnant.
>>767886786
I think its more of the fact that people just use abortion as birth control these days. Literally children in the black community have about the same chance to be born as they do to be aborted, so theres that.
>>767886786
true. but most pro-abortion legislation limits in the second and even third trimester... and a lot of people support partial birth abortion.
with that in mind
explain to me when a human life begins and when it is therefore endowed with human rights, to a degree of precision such that no child will slip through the cracks?
What specific conditions exist in the unborn that disqualify them...
its not self-sustainability
viability outside the womb
consciousness
heartbeat
As all of these things can be absent in an adult yet they are still protected by law.
Even if these were valid, the acquisition of such is impossible to determine with precision and is likely different for every person, so any rule would be arbitrary.
Bodily autonomy?...irrelevant, nobody has complete bodily autonomy.
>>767887166
If birth control were affordable and all of the pro-lifers would support free or insurance provided birth control, abortions would drop greatly. Sadly prevention = abortion for many pro-lifers...
>>767886786
Understand, i would like so much to agree with you.
I don't want to think that babies are being murdered in their millions, thats a really shitty thought and it disturbs me, it would be the best news ever if this were not happening.
but life doesn't conform to what a person wants.
>>767887631
irrelevant to the question
>>767886786
atleast farm for the organs
>>767885445
At the point where the baby/fetus can survive by itself.
Before that point, the mother basically is basically has a dual-core brain since there's a second brain inside of her that can't survive otherwise.
>>767885445
When the baby exits the mothers womb, by natural birth, or c-section, it is then a seperate human being.When it no longer requires its mothers body to live
>>767887771
why is self sustainability the point where a person becomes human?
plenty of people cant sustain themselves, you cant just shoot them..
>>767887631
Birth control is afforadable
My insurance provides me condoms free of charge(male)
Plan-b is affordable
Planned Parenthood is free
You have no argument here
>>767887815
there is no physical difference between a baby 5 minutes before and after it is born
self sustainability does not exist for all born people yet they are still protected by law.
if a child is born unable to respire properly and is put in an incubator, is it alive? if it is alive and it is human does it not deserve the same legal protection as everyone else
>>767888196
>there is no physical difference between a baby 5 minutes before and after it is born
5 minutes before it LITERALLY lives off of the mothers body to survive.
5 minutes after the baby is born it lives off of its own organs.
>if a child is born unable to respire properly and is put in an incubator, is it alive
Yes, because it was birthed. It no longer depends on the mothers body to live.
Not being able to breath just means it is alive and cannot breath, thus the need for emergency resuce life support. It is alive, but it is being mechanically kept alive.
>>767888087
Condoms and birth control have a small chance to fail without notice. At that point, plan b doesn't matter. It sucks, but it happens.
>>767888441
Nah dude, a 16 cell zygote is a real baby.
>>767887997
Because being alive is a prerequisite for every activity that a human can do.
A baby left alone in the wild will probably die. A fetus with no lungs must die. There is a big difference between things that are unlikely and things that are impossible.
>>767888196
Yes, it is alive because we can use technological intervention to keep it alive. This is fine for a baby that is born a few weeks early.
However we do not have technology required to keep, say, a one week old fetus alive, therefore I wouldn't consider a one week old fetus as alive.
Technology will improve at some point so the threshold for 'alive' will change, but we aren't there yet.
>>767885445
When it can breathe without assistance.
>>767886477
Holy shit you kids are sheep I swear.
>>767885445
You're a badass male seahorse, get the bitches and the money. One day a lesbo-butch seahorse comes and shoves her baby into you against your will and fukkin ditches. You can't remove it, or you go to prison for murder for being a murderer.
>>767888441
>>767888672
>>767889069
why is living off your own organs and being self-sufficient the clause for human rights and legal protection?
>>767889160
oh, a meme... great
>>767889069
if my lungs are ruined and im on a respirator, am i still protected by the law?
>>767885662
That's why prostitution, drugs, suicide and such are legal right? Also, fuck you it's not your body that's being killed, it's the growing organism inside.
>>767889337
You arent a human until you are birthed and use your own grown organs to sustain your self.
If your mother is sustaining you, you are not a human being
>>767886786
>Why do most pro-lifers out there seem to think people are getting abortions extremely late into their pregnancies?
They choose pictures of pretty much already formed babies because that helps them to promote they point of view, it doesn't quite seem to matter to them wether they are being honest about it or not.
It's similar to vegans saying that we are naturally vegetarians, and eating meat is bad for our health
>>767885445
When the child breathes its first breath on its own. Anything before that is being a parasite.
>>767885445
Free abortion for rape/incest. Sluts gotta pay. False rape charges get same time guy would have gotten if convicted.
>>767889486
You mean till they get a job and move out of the house.
if it hasn't developed a neural system is it really a human?
it's alive, but i don't think human
>>767885445
Only time I think an abortion is "morally" okay is if the person was raped.
>>767889565
That would be an adult Human
>>767887771
Give a estestimate when you think that is. Please, I need to laugh at idiots to ease my pain...
>>767885662
Then you have this bastard rape baby whose mother is still a kid and cant support the kid. Kid grows fucked up, doesnt have a family, joins a gang that redistributes drugs on the streets, kills few civilians robbing a grocery store and ends up driving of the cliff with his wife in the trunk leaving behind another half dozen bastard kids he manage to pop into this world cause hurr durr condoms and abort are murder. And dont tell me this doesnt happen all the fucking time in states.
Other option in this scenario could be that girl was alowed abortion, she actually went college, and met a person who cares about her and before they get children they actually think about what that child will need to not to grow to be another fucking self centered excuse of a human being.
>>767889614
agreed
>>767885445
>Explain to me when a human life begins and when it is therefore endowed with human rights
This is already clearly defined.
If it can live on it's own, it is alive and has human rights.
>>767887367
Sperm in egg attached to uterus wall.
Dude, we've been murdering and fucking each other up for millenia. Killing unborn babies isn't even on the fucked-up meter, it's natural selection, strong kills weak, much better thsn to have it born, tossed into the welfare and foster care system, and taking odds one to a hundred of not having a fucked up life, while burning resources we all need.
>>767889431
what precisely about sustainability grants legal protection?
plenty of people are only alive due to massive medical intervention, do we really want to change that?
>>767889486
see above, furthermore, a parasite cant be the same species as the host, much less the genetic offspiring
>>767889719
see above
>>767889687
THE BABY DOESNT DESERVE TO DIE TO SUIT THEW MOTHERS CONVENIENCE
YES ITS SUPER FUCKED UP FOR EVERYONE BUT WHAT IF THAT BABY IS JESUS
>>767889861
No, the rule of law.
>>767887815
No biological difference exists between a child just born and 30 seconds prior. No other person would agree woth such an arbitrary and inane thought. You are dumb and should avoid sharing your opinions with others less you suffer the ridicule you deserve.
>>767889920
No, all opinions are welcome.
We must use dialogue.
>>767885445
lol, do you make that argument when we drop bombs on ragheads living in shacks thousands of miles across a sea? Where's their human rights?
>>767885445
>legal issue
You are not wrong. Lets let the free market decide...
Show me an insurance company that would put a 6 figure life insurance policy on a fetus/embryo.
I'll show you a really disgusting abuse of life insurance...
>>767889861
>much better thsn to have it born, tossed into the welfare and foster care system
but my democratic votes are in jeopardy if this occurs
>>767885445
If it's purely a scientific and legal issue, then you can't ignore the statistics that indicate that areas that allow abortion tend to have a decline in crime over a twenty year period. Unwanted children have a higher chance of developing addictions and engaging in crime.
Simple as that. Any intelligent society should act on that as a precedent.
if the point of having laws is not to prevent murder and stuff, why do we have any laws at all? if you cant say "this should be illegal" why should anything be illegal?
Im not benefiting from the current structure anyway
if were going to all play by made up rules, no abortion should be one of the rules
>>767889899
>WHAT IF THAT BABY IS JESUS
what if it's hilter, or batman, or zyzz?
hypotheticals of this sort are a distraction as they do not serve to further the discussion in any way.
The pro-choice have to understand that, even if it is a bunch of cells inside them, it is half them half the man who impregnate them (chromosomes). Therefore, it is a COMPLETELY different person which they decided to kill.
"I can't kill this parasite living off my body and created solely by me and my fuck buddy because the government thinks it's valuable" uhh...small government? Kek conservatives being consistent
>>767890186
exactly what if its anyone? the baby should live
>>767888441
It's kinda funny how ignorant you are about neonates. But no, a fetus does not "litteraly" survive from the mother, not in a direct sense. Given the right conditions and public opinion artificial womb babies are possible. But your assertion that it needs another organism to live therefore we have a right to kill it is absurd. I can make the same argument for you and your need for protein.
>>767889907
The law is a tool of control, and those in control are the ones with might enough to enforce it. Dont be deluded bro.
>>767890097
Im not pro-aggressive war and an against the targeting of civilians which is terrorism.
>>767890166
So the murder of the innocents at the convenience of the state to prevent potential future crimes?
>>767885445
Why should the roastie not have to live with her mistake? If she wants to be a slut and ends up pregnant, then that's too damn bad. She should be forced to raise the child(ren). lmao
>>767890377
Because not everyone who has an abortion is a roastie you autistic mongo
>>767890377
>Why should the drain on society not be a bigger drain on society.
Maybe we should just abort all the women that won't have sex with you.
>>767888672
Incorrect, dead bodies do all sort of neat stuff all the time, expelling gas is such a case. Regardless, a baby left alone in the wild WILL die, there is no "probability" otherwise. But the same can be said of a number of people, and even animals. I could take an adult iguana and see how he fares in the artic.
>>767890293
a parasite is not the same species as the host and is not their genetic offspring
Sex is where babies come from yes.
A small government still prevents murder, that's the entire point of the social contract. we abide by the rules and our property and lives are protected by the state
>>767888989
Sience has the definition for what is alive, not your stupid qualifier of "can technology do it?".
>>767885445
not a *person*
human maybe
just do it before it starts looking too human
>>767890353
shit still happens, till I see you waiving a banner for them, you're just another hypocrite.
>>767890577
So you use the literal definition of parasite to correct me but pretend that any definition of murder covers a fetus. Lel.
>>767887771
What about peoplw on life support, who cant survive on their own, do they not have the right to live?
>>767889614
Even in rape. Killing an innocent human life due to the illegal actions of another is not moral in my book. Danger to the mother from birth complication would be the moral choice tho.
>>767890748
murder is the active cessation of a human life
a fetus is a human life
a parasite is not the same species as the host and is not their genetic offspring
>>767890902
literally no-one has been able to argue this point throughout the entire thread
>>767890926
That's not the definition of murder, Webster.
A fetus also isn't a human life.
>>767885445
>Why do people feel its right to decide who gets to live and die?.
Aren't you making that choice when you fuck rawdog?
>>767889719
Your pretty stupid right? Paroting a wrong opinion as fact does not make it right. Please open a biology book and look into the definition of living organism. (Pro tip, it's not self sustainability)
>>767887997
OK to clarify, able to live outside the womb can mean able to live outside the womb on life support. No human who can't be sustained by medicine can survive.
So a woman, at any time during a pregnancy, should be able to say get this fucking thing out of me I didn't sign up for this. And a doctor should remove it. And if it can be raised in an incubator and society decides that that is the world we want, to raise every viable fetus into an adult, then we do so. And if the fetus is too premature to be sustained by our technology, then it is scrapped for parts. Or killed if you prefer the terminology.
When a couple gets IVF, they inseminate several eggs up to a dozen. They then choose one or two to implant. Is that mass murder? When a woman miscarries, has someone died? I don't think so.
>>767890063
Fine. Aside from possibly moving to ventilation as the means of respiration in like 15 secs, no difference exsists.
>>767891035
webster is not the arbiter of reality but :
unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought .
a fetus is alive.
a fetus is human
abortion means the active cessation of this life
abortion is murder
murder is illegal
>>767891068
yes... that is exactly when the choice occurs
>>767891157
see above thread.
also yes, a life that is human has ended
>>767891157
This shit from the same faggots who want to build a border wall because the Mexicans take our money and jobs wowzer
>>767891311
I agree completely. there is no difference.
If you ridicule people then their emotions become involved, which fucks up everything
>>767891329
since when has cessation of human life been defacto illegal or immoral?
there's still the death penalty in some places, you can still pull the plug on some patients
>>767890166
Education has shown to give better numbers than any other methods. That should be our gold standard imho.
>>767891329
If that were actually true abortion would be actively illegal instead of completely fucking legal and upheld, but it's not, you are retarded even though you aren't actually a retard
B8 but I agree 100%.
>>767891436
if you actively end someone's life then this is murder.
euthanasia may be morally fine due to the choice of the individual.
the death penalty may be morally fine due to the persons violation of the nonaggression principle and severe transgression of the law.
>>767891436
You can "pull the plug" in cases where there is no chance of recovery.. maybe thats a bad idea too, i havent read into the issue much.
a fetus is not sick.
>>767885445
People die everyday. Who cares. Human life isn't precious. If they decide to have an abortion, that's on them. Not going to say someone can't. If they want it out bad enough they will get it out. Might aswell have a medical professional ca
>>767891035
Wh.. what species do you think a fetus originating from two humans do you think it is?
>>767891480
circular logic. something being permissible because its permissible does not investigate the correctness or fairness of this thing with respect human rights
>>767885445
because murder is fine broski
>>767891750
What species is the bacteria inside of my body? Probably not human
>>767891348
That's not what I want
Ill give them all amnesty
And jobs
And I'll let them get all the abortions they want
>>767891157
Why is that ignorant people keep trying to come up with their own definition of what constitutes a LIVING HUMAN ORGANISM when science has already given the answer of what that is?
>>767891806
It's permissible because nobody agrees that your logic actually makes sense besides other retards, that was my point.
>>767885550
/thread.
>>767891685
then how is this a cut and dry issue for you? kinda hypocritical
>>767891726
Thats an incredibly easy thing to say.
In a universal sense maybe we aren't important, although we are currently the most intelligent thing that we are aware of in the cosmos.
But in the interest of a society based on fairness where justice is applied evenly (which we may not have but should aspire to).. should we not protect innocent lives that are human?
>>767891863
get rid of it then, that's not the issue. im talking about a life that is human
>>767891806
whether or not a majority of people agree is irrelevant to the correctness of a thing
>>767885445
lol so if I tear up some dolls it's murder too? Morphology is not an adequate metric for human life, dummy.
>>767885550
this but also only males
>>767889416
Those three things haven't gone to the supreme court and held up as freedoms allowed under the constitution like abortion.
Beyond that, Suicide is typically not punished or disallowed by law, and prostitution is legal in at least one state. So even those in gray ethical areas.
>>767888087
Agreed.
>>767892145
Abortion laws were invalidated before it was popular to be pro choice, specifically going against the grain because the people were morons who wanted women taking coathangers to themselves because they didn't want to raise a rape baby at 15
>>767891329
I'll say it again. If the fetus can survive outside the womb, when the woman goes to get the fetus removed, they deliver to incubator by c section.
Otherwise they kill it.
A woman should always have the ability to get something removed from her body. What we do with it after is up for legislation.
>>767891068
Condoms break. Birth Control fails.
>>767885445
oh look, a redditor!
>>767892082
because fetii are lives that are human.
they don't violate the nonaggression principle
they are not lacking any quality of humanity that cannot be removed from a born individual to the degree that this born individual will no longer be protected by law
I truly truly dont want to think of abortion as murder, it really bothers me.
but that's not how reality works, unfortunately. most of life is harsh and nasty
>>767892384
No, i just use formal spacing.
>>767891863
Let's ignore the word "originating" because otherwise your response is that of a middle schooler.
What species is an zygote (having human genes) created from the two haploid cells; a sperm and ovum (both carrying human genes) made by a human male and a human female respectively?
>>767892323
there is no point in repeating yourself, respond the arguments presented to you instead.
there is nothing about self-sustainability that grants human rights.
also you used the word kill
>>767892379
shit happens yes.
you cant insulate yourself from things like that
>>767891984
I'm not defining living human organism, I'm defining person who should have legal personhood and right to life.
Up until that point I consider them to be legally part of the woman. If they can survive outside the woman (with any amount of medical assistance or not) I accept we can grant them legal rights
>>767890902
People on life support don't have a right to live. The only live if another person, the hospital, or tax-payers decide to pay for their life-support for them, however a person on life-support has no right to the bodily autonomy of another person to keep them alive.
>>767892457
so killing human lives intentionally is only ok if they did something bad? Or are dying?
Not ok if they're fetuses?
why do you think this? I feel like you're applying different standards to different things instead of being objective
if we're killing people to minimize suffering then abortion is ok
if we're killing people because it's good for society then abortion is ok
If we're killing people because we don't like them then... We shouldn't be doing that
>>767892650
Then your just giving your opinion in a thread debating on facts?
>>767885445
Are you fucking retarded? Can you not see the bigger picture? It has nothing to do with morals or when a life starts or any of that shit. It's about keeping niggers and other low class poor scum from breeding too much. Like we really need another fucking fry cook or heroin addict. Grow up
>>767892650
so you agree that the fetus is alive, and human and that the need of intervention is not necessary for legal protection, but that the connection to the mother invalidates the legal protection of fetus.
does that mean that 5 minutes before a child is born, or even when the umbilical cord is attached the mother can choose to have the fetus torn apart?
>>767892650
>MFW if I crash into a preggers bitch and the baby is kill, I face a murder charge
If the fetus isn't a person, then why do i face a murder/manslaughter charge?
>>767892686
Incorrect. Medical professionals either take a "do no harm" oath or are legally mandated to provide care for a patient. One who ceses care for a patient is in violation of law.
>>767891329
Nice non sequitur there.
Bodily autonomy should be one of the most important legally protected freedoms. If you personally think abortion is wrong, then don't get an abortion. If you don't have a uterus, then the decision isn't yours to make anyway.
>>767892770
if the mothers life is severely endangered then abortion is fine
if a criminal violates the law and the non aggression principle than they can lose their rights.. personally i am against the death penalty but it is more morally acceptable to me than abortion as a fetus has done nothing wring.
euthanasia is the choice of the person who wants to die.. again I don't support it, but it is the choice of the person and I don't want to tell them what to do
a fetus doesn't chose to die, a person cant chose to end another persons life
>>767892991
>MFW that bitch can choose whether to kill my baby or not, but I can't choose to not pay child support if she keeps the baby and I don't want it
Why does the bitch have a choice and I don't? Are her rights more important than mine?
>>767892991
Nope. No one has explained why the lack of "bodily autonomy"disqualifies one for rights given to all other living humans. Is a baby 30 seconds from birth not intitled to them?
>>767892991
bodily autonomy is a myth, we dont get to do what we want with out bodies in all cases.
even so the right to life is paramount
saying that only women get to choose because only they are affected and understand is analogous to saying that only a first-person perspective matters.
>>767892960
the perception of something as a non-sequitur is often relative
All arguments against abortion are purely from an emotional standpoint. This is a fact.
It's pretty incredibly arrogant as a species that we will murder plenty of other living things in our unstoppable subjugation of the planet, but think that a blob of our DNA combined with someone else's demands special protection.
>>767893546
can i murder your mother?
Why?/Why not?
>>767893638
You can, but you shouldn't
>>767893711
why not?
what should stop me?
if I am physically able, what should stop me murdering your mother?
>>767893083
but women abort by accident and whatnot, it's just a facet of life
it's more no harm, no foul for me
a fetus can't suffer
criminals shouldn't lose their rights ever, that's goes against what rights even are
most people get unplugged when they're in a coma, no way to decide for themselves
>>767885445
Until the fetus leaves the womb, it is considered an organ - not a person.
>>767893776
Her sons and husband should stop you and maybe a neighbor. That's what should stop you. These days we also get the police. Kind of, they tend to come too late
>>767885445
If only your mother had decided to end your life after she found she was pregnant from the rape.
>>767892569
Yes I use kill. That isn't a problem to me.
All you do is refer me to the thread. All the thread says in this regard is, some people arent self sufficient... Arent they still people? So I present the case of the baby in the incubator.
Websters defines, is not a good definition for murder. Murder is defined in relationship with law. Soldiers actively kill, we dont consider it murder legally. The mother of the dead person may think the soldier is a murderer. The mother of a man who is killed trying to rape someone may consider her sons killer to be a murderer. They may, poetically or linguistically be a murderer. That doesn't really matter here.
Will we charge these people with murder? Should we? That's the essence of what we are discussing.
Are abortionists murderers, is the question here. The answer is, legally, in some states and some countries under some conditions yes, and in others no. The thread is asking, well should they be?
Is removing a fetus that is already dead murder? I hope you think not.
Is removing a fetus that is dying, and is spreading infection to the mother considered murder?
Terminating a pregnancy where they baby would die at a year old from genetically testable disease?
And finally, terminating a pregnancy at the mothers choice when there is no sign of a problem with the fetal development?
Ill agree that cases 2, 3 and 4 are killing a developing human. But I wouldn't charge someone with murder for any of them. I don't find any of them morally reprehensible either.
In the end, no one cares about your emotions about abortion, we care about legality and punishment.
>>767893776
the suffering you'll cause her family
the legal ramifications
the distasteful act of itself
>>767893147
Honestly there should be an abortion clause for men. A legal abortionthat functionally says the baby is dead to me.
This doesn't contradict that women should be able to get abortions.
>>767892955
That's not a "right to life". A doctor is only required to provide care within reason, and a doctor is never required to surrender his own bodily autonomy to care for a patient. He gets paid a salary to do it. Or in the case of public health care, the tax-payers collectively decide to all pay for the health care, and in this case life-support, of a person who needs. Imagine if there was a hospital with no power, and the only way to keep the life-support machines running was for someone to peddle a bike hooked up to a generator. No doctor would have a duty to ride that bike any longer than what he personally thought was reasonable. Comparing people on life support to a fetus only makes sense if we lived in a world where society collectively paid all of the child bearing and child rearing expenses for a woman that didn't want to be pregnant, and even then it's still a stretch.
>>767892831
No, those babies can survive on their own.
When a woman goes to an abortion clinic at 8.5 month pregnant, the doctor would simply deliver the baby by c section, and put it up for adoption.
The mother loses all rights to the baby. This is the case of the baby that can survive outside the mother.
>>767894069
irrelevant if we are all just blobs of DNA as was suggested earlier
>>767893858
circular reasoning
>>767893824
you don't abort by accident, the doctor aborts on purpose.
A fetus suffers by having its potential removed as with any murder, pain is also likely experienced in later term abortions although the experience of pain does not affect the act of abortion from the doctors perspective.
A person is a coma is only unplugged if there is no chance of recovery.. a fetus will "recover" in a few weeks months and then go on to life for up to 80+ years.
I'm not certain that pulling a plug is right either though, even if there is no chance of survival. though the argument that another person can decide in this instance is less egregious ...id have to read more into the issue tbh
>>767894410
survivability is not the clause for humanity and legal protection as people who cannot survive on their own cannot be murdered
so you are against partial birth abortion?
americans lol
>>767894575
nope
>>767885445
Its not scientific to say fetuses can be killed. Its appeal to emotion. You cannot kill something before it even has life. How is it a slippery slope, exactly? Do you think people will start stabbing their fucking babies? Inbred.
>explain to me when a human life begins
How about when it is born you fucking bellend.
>>767894439
I guess I meant to say "an early term fetus cannot physically suffer"
And women do abort by accident
>>767889899
Jesus and god don't exist so jot that down.
>>767892784
So the problem here is that we have different ideas of human rights and murder.
You seem to see them as natural, the philosophical human dignity and murder as killing which seems morally reprehensible.
But these are so culturally relative. I see each as legal terms. I don't see them as "facts"
You certainly can't argue that a baby human in prehistory had a right to life if there was no ads willing to feed and protect it? The same for clans warring, you couldn't really call that murder in a modern sense?
To me, each of these are defined by our current social contracts in our respective societies, and more specifically by the laws our governments. (though I assume everyone here is american until proven otherwise)
>>767894720
if they abort by accident then it is an accident and they have my sympathy.
There are conditions that remove ones ability to feel pain, a person who is on drugs might not be able to feel pain... doesn't change whats done to them
i am genuinely hoping someone can convince me otherwise..
They would have to demonstrate that a fetus is not alive, or is alive in such a way that removes their legal rights, which I believe are a consequence of their innocence and their humanity.
So far i genuinely havent found a condition that is only present in fetii that means they arent fully human...
>>767885445
Regardless if its rape or not, it shouldn’t be a woman’s choice. It’s their fucking fault for getting into that situation.
>>767889871
They choose to live a life supported by medical assistance. If a person goes into a coma their caretaker gets to decide if they should be removed from life support.
youre not a person if you do not have autonomy
If i won the lottery i would sponsor subsidized abortion clinics in inner cities so i could help kill thousands of nigger babies
>>767894439
>you don't abort by accident, the doctor aborts on purpose.
wait... do you not know what a miscarriage is?
>>767895064
op here.
its not a woman's fault if she gets raped
rape is a case that i am extremely uncomfortable with and il admit that i am hypocritical on that point, i would never impose a law saying that if a woman is raped she has to have the baby...but im not sure why, i just wont logically argue it
I realize that that probably undermines everything iv been saying for over an hour, but there you go. gotta be honest.
>>767895269
assuming a person in a coma would "recover in a few months" then turning off the life support would be a terrible idea.
>>767895442
this is a question of definitions.. i view abortion as murder and there for an active choice.
obviously terrible things happen and these women have my deepest sympathies.. someone very close to me miscarried recently and was devastated ... i feel so so bad for her all the time
>>767894962
the problem is what defines human? that definition is completely subjective. is it dependent on genotype? if so masturbation is murder. is it dependent on the ability to form complex thoughts? if so you can abort infants, toddlers, and some people all the way through adulthood. its all subjective. the right to have an abortion should be preserved. that way people who don't want them don't have to have them
because of that women should have the right to choose. I also think men should have the right to release themselves from all responsibility, though that should be difficult because lets be real: men have much more say on the matter on whether or not they have children
>>767885445
Many species of animals kill their young in stiuations where they cant feed them or they would be in danger.
>>767885445
This subject is not worthy of discussion. It has already been discussed hundres of times. No one can give you an answer.
What I would like to discuss is, should males have a choice in abortion? If both parties consented to have a baby, and the woman regrets it, should the man be able to have a say in the matter, legally? What if its the other way around? This subject is so taboo that even tumblerinas are scared to touch it, not even feminist. No one without an anon tag wants to talk about this, even academia.
Alimony and abortion are never going to be discussed seriously without flack from selfishness from the female sex, but they're progressive with anything else huh
>>767895779
im drunk as fuck btw, had half a litte rof vodka so im about to pass the fuck out
>>767895684
>assuming a person in a coma would "recover in a few months" then turning off the life support would be a terrible idea.
What your opinion of a "terrible idea" is is irrelevant. thats the law.
>>767885445
Not sure but what pisses me off is when I hear some abortion pro chick tell me that I cant circumcise my kid and that kid deserves a choice in the matter.
>>767895684
not being able to afford maintaining life support and not being able to support a baby are comparable. in both situation the termination of the body is the right choice.
>>767895754
genetic code common to humans contained in the cells of a body that is alive is a human life.
a fetus is just an early stage of human life cycle
sperm and eggs by themselves are dead ends and do not contain a full genetic code.
men and women are different. that's just the way it is, women should have the same choice as men if they want to have a baby which occurs at unprotected sex... accidents happen but that's life.
>>767885949
The real issue is that abortions have always and will always be done.
You can chose to ignore that, increasing the likelyhood or losing two lives, or make them safer. Keeping the loss to one
>>767896015
not being able to afford someone's care does not make it legal to actively kill them.
>>767885445
"The universe tilts more twards balence thanks to your sacrifice"
>>767885445
Even in death you become children of thanos
>>767885445
If you agree with abortion you agree with eugenics, there is no other way around it and you know it. And if you agree with that this website wouldn't exist.
>>767887367
Provide country and sources for your claims in legislation.
The legislative articles please, not some random website
>>767893638
Well my mother isn't a blob. Or is she.
Fat jokes aside. My mother can A: tell you she doesn't want to be murdered, B: will demonstrate an adverse physical response to pain and C: there would be a tangible emotional and social loss from her premature death.
Obviously a first trimester blob of cells can't communicate it wants to be alive or dead. However it also can't feel pain, perhaps up to as much as 30 weeks or as few as 20. Lastly, the only loss is of potential. My mom is a distinct individual. A fertilized egg may have a unique DNA sequence, but it isn't a person. Why undergo the physical and emotional hardships of pregnancy at the behest of a few cells?
>>767885445
Wonder what it tastes like. Doesnt these fuckers have some super cells that are almost magic like?
>>767896069
what if I said the real issue is precisely when life begins and do we want to have laws that say that some people who are alive don't deserve legal protection that applies to everyone else..
these people are also totally innocent and are often killed due to convenience.. we shouldnt legislate for this
>>767896395
but they aren't people. fetuses, embryos, zygotes, blastocoels aren't people. none of those things can do people things
>>767885445
Why did I salIvate? I'd love to cook that up with some fresh herbs spices and a little rice wine and fish sauce.
I bet it would taste amazing.
At least it n ver felt fear for its life or felt pain like hundreds of thousands of anim
Als in China daily or multi-millions of animals per day.
OP you need to evolve into 2018 for this. As a strong, modern age woman I should be able to sell my foetuses to the highest bidder.
Fuck all of you cismen who even think otherwise.
>>767896218
do your own research
>>767896247
we are all blobs of DNA
Feeling pain doesnt grant humanity nor legal protection nor by its absence remove these
Being able to communicate doesn't grant humanity or legal protection nor by its absense remove these.
i cant kill someone who is stone drunk or in a coma and not be convicted of murder.
A body that is human and alive is a human life,
Not murder.
Right to choose.
You say it's your stance isn't due to religion, but i bet you are religious.
this should be in pol.
kek off you fucking kek face
>>767896395
Ultimately this is why abortion should be left to personal choice. If you feel that a sperm and egg create or are filled with a soul at conception, then I get why someone would feel that abortion was murder.
I believe humans are pretty much just lucky apes, and that our meaningless existence is bad enough without forcing unwanted children into the world. Bad enough never having asked to be born, probably worse if my parents hadn't wanted me either.
>>767896569
they are alive and human. part of the human life cycle, there is no unique condition that logically debars them from legal protection.
I think people just dont like to think of them as human as they dont look like us and the thought of abortion as murder is deeply disturbing
life, however, is often disturbing.
>>767896569
Nobody responded because you are in fact correct.
>>767896707
if abortion is murder, it's not a choice we can make regardless of gender.
yes, I think we are clever apes, I don't believe in god, but I do believe in fairness and that we should aim for that.
Why tf do you even care about abortion. I don't understand why anybody would care about something that doesn't even affect them.
>>767896715
they aren't human. if the definition of human includes "things that might eventually be human" then that's some bullshit. if dolly the sheep can be created from the nucleus of a fibroblast cell then by your definition>>767896045 every diploid cell in my body is a human being, and that's nonsensical
>>767896715
My sandwich will be gone if I eat it. If I dont do anything and leave it be it will turn to a moldy lump,
Thus my sandwich is a moldy lump already and should be treated as such from the start?
No. This is where that logic falls apart.
>>767885445
It can't survive without the host therefore its a parasite
>>767896870
human doesnt contain something that will become human, human is just human. a living entity that contains a genetic code common to humans is a human life, not something that will become a human life
no other cell in my body is separate from my life and would in its natural course develop into its own life... and thank fuck for that
>>767896964
enjoy your sandwich, i believe its time for me to have breakfast.
>>767896979
discussed multiple times in thread
I support abortion.
However I am not deluded into thinking that we abort babies for any other reason than the fact that it is often inconvenient to our own lives to have a baby.
Many pro-abortion nuts go insane going into the minutiae of when or when isn't a baby 'alive' and what rights does an unborn baby compared to the rights of the mother, but in the end it all comes down to convenience. To me it is convenient that I don't have a child, and I also think that the world is FAR too overpopulated as it is so ending these lives before they become self-aware is the best thing for me and for the planet.
>>767887997
Already been born. Stop being a faggot by deflecting.
I'm an anti-abortion atheist as well. People are just more concerned with personal freedom than the freedom of anybody else which isn't as palpable. Nobody alive can be aborted later and murder is considered an entirely different thing just because that's the most comfortable lens to look at it from. I just personally no longer feel like it's worthwhile sacrificing my standing with certain people just because of my opinions on it and thus no longer attempt to really talk about it directly. I mainly simplify my views into the idea that we should be using science and medicine to reduce abortions, and putting in significant resources into sex education and contraception accessibility is the ethical choice for a society.
>>767897007
>human doesnt contain something that will become human, human is just human. a living entity that contains a genetic code common to humans is a human life, not something that will become a human life
my knee-grow, that doesn't make any sense
a fucking embryo in its natural course doesn't develop into its own life without obligate assistance from a uterus
>>767897191
addressed multiple times in the thread.
>>767891329
>a fetus is human.
Faggot. A fetus is a fetus. Thats why its called a fetus, not a baby.
>>767897180
Understandable. The perspective that aggravates me is when they defend the choice as being made for the baby itself.
>>767897201
a wonderful sentiment, but the most passionate "pro lifers" don't want comprehensive sex education either
>>767897227
...and not once by a legit argument.
>>767897201
What about rape? Its not the womans choice and its not fair for them to have to go through the process of pregnancy (all the while being reminded of rape).
>>767897222
your knee is your knee.
yes it does.. thats where babies come from, unless accident, injury or intention alter this.
>>767897180
at least you are consistent.
>>767897299
i could just as easily called a fetus a baby, I didn't so as not to trigger people.
>>767897369
fine.
so 5 minutes before a baby is born can its brains be scrambled.
>>767885445
The parent of a child always has say on whether their child loves or dies.
I don't have the right to forbid parents from owning guns just because kids accidentally blow their heads off with them.
I don't have the right to force a parent to take their child to a real hospital where they use medicine to cure illness instead of asking God to wish it away.
And I recognize that in those cases, theirs only a chance they'll doe rather than a guarantee, but that brings me to vital point of all of this.
>the thing in that pan isn't a child
>it is not a separate living thing
There's an entire world of fully grown, self aware humans torturing and killing each other left and right, and THIS is the fight you pick?
There's spic cartels flaying family alive in front of each other, there's chinks blowtorching live animals on the street for an audience, and your holy war is against people who chose to stop the life of their potential child before it could start?
You're on 4chan, you know damn well what's out there. So fuck you, fuck your bait, and fuck me for taking it.
>>767897478
no they dont.
a parent cannot legally kill their child
ITT; a bunch of Christ-faggots pretending to care about their fellow human beings whilst smugly shitting on the legal right to get an abortion. Move to Gilead and leave the rest of the fuck alone.
>>767897544
op here
i dont believe in god, that's a strawman
if god exists then i don't want to worship
>>767897402
my man, this sentence
>human doesnt contain something that will become human, human is just human. a living entity that contains a genetic code common to humans is a human life, not something that will become a human life
does not make sense. if you wrote a sentence like this in english class your teacher would ask you "wtf does this mean?" you can't hide behind nonsense
>>767897476
Again, utter bullshit. DEAL with the reality and stop making shit up. You know that does not happen. This is why no one takes your position seriously when you just lie your ass off to support your position. You need better b8 or seriously need to get another hobby. This is what actual personal responsibility and liberty looks like.
Okay so when do you think life actually starts? Conception? I can tell you at conception its nothing more than single, fairly benign cells. There's no mind. No consiousness, no nerves, no brain tissue, nothing.
>>767885445
Here's why abortion is murder.
1.) A zygote is to a fetus, what a fetus is to a baby, what a baby is to a child, what a child is to a teen, what a teen is to an adult, what an adult is to an elderly person. It is all the same human being throughout its life.
2.) A woman that voluntarily brings a child into existence (whether intentional or not) has a positive obligation to see the pregnancy through until the child can survive outside the womb and someone else will take care of it (if she doesn't want it). It does not matter that the woman owns her own body because she was the one that involuntarily brought the child into a situation where it cannot survive without her. The child had no choice in the matter. Obviously, this doesn't apply to woman who was raped.
3.) It is similar to the following scenario. Imagine you bring an unconscious person onto your yacht and set sail for 9 months. Do you have an obligation to feed them? Should it be legal for you to throw them off your yacht at any time because you own the yacht?
The only reason abortion should be legal is because of pic related.
if men gave birth we wouldn't care about abortion
if I woman gets pregnant we decide they must become a full time mother or
they are a bad person.
if elon musk could get pregnant and it meant his 4 chan followers couldn't meme about flamethrowers anymore for 18 years minimum
the alt right would be wearing pussy hats for abortion lol
>>767897633
im pretty tired, its half 8, i think its sloppy writing and needlessly complicated but that it makes sense.
>>767896847
I don't feel a group of cells is important or unique enough to merit protection. Eggs fertilizing sperm is a process we can do over and over and over. The freedom for an existing human to not have to dedicate nine months to eighteen plus years of their life for something they don't want seems more important than someone who isn't a person yet.
>>767897682
refusing to answer the question, posting cute memes and not seeing that liberty doesn't involve complete freedom in a society...intensifies
>>767897702
>voluntarily
>whether intentional or not
the fuck you just say?
>>767885445
To prevent war, the galaxy is on Orion's Belt...
A "human" that is a microscopic clump of cells with nothing to feel think or sense with is not important compared to the life of the mother.
That's it.
>>767897702
but what if I get pregnant but
then I don't want it?
>>767897595
The is /b/. If you want an actual explanation, go to an actual place that deals in this. At 9 weeks, the legal absolute limit in the USA, the cletus is little more than an olive sized, bunch of developing cells. Pic related.
>>767897385
Everyone accepts that that's an exception. In a perfectly fair world everyone would live forever and we'd just enable the woman to sleep through the whole ordeal and that rape-let would be allowed to live. Unfortunately that's not a reasonable scenario. I've thought about it and the only thing I've come up with is the concept that the government could offer to pay the woman a significant amount of money to keep the kid, and then another second significant amount of money to raise the kid and that these would both be optional. But then that would create an entirely separate ethical problem where no wealthy woman would be willing to do this while poor women would and thus it would disproportionately result in more children of rape being born into poverty which is an entirely different problem.
>>767897704
not a valid excuse. if you can't clearly articulate your thoughts to someone else then your thoughts aren't completely clear to you
>>767897761
>someone who isn't a person yet
something, perhaps?
>>767897761
a human life is a human life, ending a human life is murder, which is illegal
if you don't want a baby don't chooseto have unprotected sex if you get your dumbass pregnant anyway, shit happens, demonstrate responsibility and maturity or have it adopted.
im very tired, iv been at this for hours its half 8, and i believe we have reached an impasse, its gotten to the point where I'm just repeating myself for new people anyway.
peace
>>767897820
>voluntarily
She was not forced into the acts that led to the baby being conceived.
>whether intentional or not
If the pregnancy was not the goal, but happened anyway as a result of one's actions.
>>767897998
Too fucking bad. You have to wait until it is born or can be safely removed and put up for adoption.
>it's okay to kill bacteria
>it's not okay to kill people
>the difference between people and bacteria that explains this is that people have people DNA and bacteria have bacteria DNA
It is a waste of your time to engage with these people, as no one who is capable of reason would have adopted these beliefs in the first place. Go back to masturbating, you'll be happier in the long run.
>>767897702
Imagine you're a month out of port on your yacht and you find a stowaway hiding in your boat. He must have snuck in during that big party you threw before departure. Do you take a detour to drop the stowaway off, or let the unwelcome visitor stay with you for the rest of your voyage?
>>767898274
but did you consider that I don't want it?
>>767897798
Answering the question? That your "scramblng the brains 5 minutes before birth"? It doesn't happen, so you are either full of shit (/b/, so normal) or you are borderline retarded. 9 weeks, faggot, 9 weeks. Look it up sometime.
>>767898181
its not an excuse, its the reason im stopping, i have work.
iv explained myself multiple times over the last few hours.. there have been about 5 counter arguments.. none of which stand up logically .. enjoy your day
simplicity is relative unfortunately for everyone concerned.
>>767898325
What you're describing is closer to a pregnancy that came about from rape. In your scenario, the owner of the boat did nothing through their own actions to cause the stowaway to be on their boat.
>>767898181
Something is probably more accurate, yes.
>>767898379
Nah I just dont care about globs of snot, cunt
>>767897932
That's not really it though. You haven't solved the ethical quandary lmao. What is importance? What if the woman is scum? Child could still grow up to be a good person.
>>767897702
Then by your logic, you are up for genocide every time you rub one out. See you in prison.
(A woman has no moral obligation to do anything of the sort. You on the other hand have a moral obligation to seek help.)
>>767898362
5 minutes , a day , a week a month, partial birth abortion is the point.. for fuck sake, im too tired to hold peoples hands at this stage
>>767898470
gesundheit
>>767898518
jesus christ how dumb are you, people.
better question than
"is it murder"
better question
"why can't I murder sometimes?"
isn't 4chan full of atheists
>>767897703
Notice the lack of replies. /thread.
>>767898509
>what is importance
>what if the woman is scum
this is about setting a precedence for everyone
also yeah, if the woman is "scum" its still not as important
>>767898348
Can't always get our way. Laws exist for a reason.
>>767898603
Well laws currently uphold abortion...
>>767898274
Oh wait I have a better idea. I'll just have the fetus transferred to you, seeing as you care so much. Thanks.
>>767898441
Are you suggesting that only rape produces unwanted pregnancy?
>>767885584
fucking edgelord
>>767898712
You completely missed their point.
>reading comp
>>767885445
Why do you want to take the perons right of killing their own baby? If a SJW feminazi feels like killing her 20 unborn babies, I cheer! And so should you! Why? Because these babies are composed of the same gullible genetic material. I have no problem with their genes rotting out.
>>767898518
No, because a sperm by itself will never grow into a human, but a zygote will.
>>767898636
Yes, like when slavery was legal.
>>767898734
>>767898734
>>767898587
>>767898563
>>767898529
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
the debate is really about a woman's place in the home, their potential to contribute to society is minimized as is the relentless reality of raising a child.
women arn't important enough to sacrifice a child -human or otherwise-
>>767885445
A fetus is, by definition, not a human. It is an embryo. Abortion is therefore not murder.
>>767898768
Derp derp reading so hard me not think do words good herp
I think that's about as productive as anything else I could add to this thread.
>>767898966
your face is a flasehood
and you have a big ole floppy dick
>>767888672
Every single person in old people's homes, wheelchairs, blind people etc would also die if left in the wild.
Yet we don't terminate them so that our lives would be easier.
Either life itself has value or it doesn't. There's no way to have it both ways in regards to "one thing".
>>767898274
but if i fucked the fetus
is it rape?
>>767898712
No. When there is a rape, one is not responsible for the pregnancy. When there is no rape, one is responsible for the pregnancy even if it is unwanted. There are consequences for our actions.
>>767899125
Old people have value in wisdom, experience, expertise, social connectivity, etc. Maybe not a ton, but there's some use to old people.
Not so much with a grape sized lump of tissue.
>>767899237
what if I used 99.9 percent effective birth control that was defunct from a problem with manufacturing.
can I get an abortion then? because its just like being raped its not my fault the contraceptive didn't work because the pregnancy arouse outside of the accepted risk.
>>767899093
Let's redefine human so that people like you aren't in then we can hunt you for sport.
For future discussions, this -> "by definition" <- usually means you lost the argument
>>767899336
old people have cataracts
>>767899430
Good question. I believe all birth control has a disclaimer saying that there is still a chance you could get pregnant, so...no.
>>767899237
The consequence is disproportionate to the action involved. Sex should be enjoyable and free of worry for women and for men alike. Abortion should never be the first line of contraception, but it should be available if necessary.
>>767899453
all for redefining "human" to exclude this anon
>>767899093
say I
>>767899237
What's the consequence of an unwanted child growing up neglected or abused by parents who didn't want it? What's the consequence of being put into a foster care system full of absuse and rape?
>>767899336
Not just old people. Sick people. People with absolutely no value to society other than being a drain on resources. There are plenty of them, many are not old.
Their value is far in the negative. Any blastocyst has more potential value than any of them.
Yet we're fine with them being kept alive. It doesn't matter how big the lump of cells is. Either humans are worth keeping around even if they're not specially valuable, or they're not.
>>767899657
lol as if the right gives a shit about
the reality of raising a child as a poor person or person with bad support systems.
The right huffs their own Ayn Randian farts so much. They think every poor person is just too lazy to be happy rich and wise
>>767899564
It does not matter how many precautions you take if your actions still lead to the child being conceived. You are ultimately the one that brought a person into an existence where they cannot survive without you. If you push someone into a lake that can't swim, you have an obligation to try and save them, or it becomes murder.
>Sex should be enjoyable and free of worry for women and for men alike.
And this is what it all comes down to. People want to have as much sex as they want even if that means killing a human being that they voluntarily, through cause and effect, brought into existence.
>>767899564
Why should sex be freely enjoyed without any consequences?
I see absolutely no reason it should. In fact I see a whole lot of reasons sex _should_ have consequences, both personally and privately.
What if during the pregnancy where an ultrasound cannot pick up something like the baby developing deformed would you rather raise a child with serious health issues or end the pregnancy ?
>>767899657
>What's the consequence of an unwanted child growing up neglected or abused by parents who didn't want it?
Yes, it's sad when that happens, but hopefully they would put their child up for adoption.
>What's the consequence of being put into a foster care system full of absuse and rape?
Improving the adoption system is always a worthwhile goal.
>>767899896
Yea thats what we want. Whats wrong with that?
lets enjoy our trip to the eternal void
>>767885445
Infanticide has been practiced by humans since pre history and is practiced by all animals. In times of famine it is fairly common practice to destroy offspring to leave resources for breeding adults. Also sickly, mutated, or weak offspring are killed as not to waste resources. Abortion is actually more "humane" than the way things are naturally done. There are 7 billion of you apes shitting up this planet. If some dumb dirt person vacuums out one of her mistakes she's doing you all a favor. It's one less drug addict you need to feed.
>>767885445
I believe abortion should be legal so dumbass people like you stop making these posts
>>767900211
>>767900060
>>767900086
Hopefully you guys will infected with Super Gonorrhea in the nearest future. Alelujah Jesus!
>>767900313
You should turn the other cheek so I can slap you on that one too.
>>767900053
I'd be in favor of an abortion allowance for children with serious health issues. Something like down syndrome, though, they can often live okay lives.
>>767885445
>Clearly murder
It's legal and therefore not murder by definition. You're just illiterate.
>>767885445
Sounds like you think like a Republican. You're so focused on the unborn, you couldn't give two shits about the ones alive.
It's fine if it's teh death penalty, despite it being the same fucking thing in teh end, and it's fine if it's shooting a criminal (tho this can be justifiable), and it's perfectly fine to kill another human being in war, yet you focus on a topic that is so controversial (and not in your favor) to take a moral "high ground" to make your pathetic, worthless self feel a tiny bit better for supporting a party of death and suffering to everyone that isn't the top 5%.
>>767900701
The year is 1000 a.d. You and another person are shipwrecked on an island in the middle of nowhere. You kill the other person. Was it murder?
>>767900770
irrelevant obfuscation and implication of motive.
the point is where does life begin.
>>767900211
Here here
>>767900841
Sorry, I'm not familiar with medieval maritime laws.
>>767900841>
>767900993
Seems like you didn't study your country's law and legal but yet you expect people to feed you the answers. We don't spoon feed lazy fat asses like you guys!
>>767885445
If there's no absolute freedom, then there are no absolute morals. We allow a dozen innocents to die in a drone strike to kill one suspected. Armies prioritize treatment of their soldiers over treatment of civilians injured by the army's actions, etc. The value of human life by itself is arbitrary.
For me personally, a conscious being chained to a gurney for 9 months is way more unsettling than a month old fetus being evacuated that fundamentally lacks the hardware to perceive pain or any other experience. Maybe if the overwhelming majority of abortions happened a week before delivery I'd feel different, but it's just the complete inverse, so I don't.
Some dudes turned foreskin cells into a small lump of neural tissue that has basic communication with itself. Is it murder to destroy that?
If you had to save 5000 suspended zygotes in jars or one 10 year old kid from a burning building, which one would you pick? We can talk about how we define murder, but let's drop this false equivalency shit.
>>767885445
OP you should have been aborted
They are doing the world a favor by not having these unwanted babies
>>767885445
What kind of model kit is that?
>>767885445
Her body her choice.
>>767902146
to do what
>>767899430
no, adults cannot avoid responsibility
Goddamn, b, you really fucking suck now. Way too much conservative ass sniffing here for too long.
Essentially every argument against abortion becomes some idiotic semantics game, most of which don't make any sense at all. But even if you were to trick someone into some verbal gotcha moment, really ask yourself if you honestly REALLY give a fuck about a fetus. I mean honestly, even born babies, let alone fetuses, for months are just things that eat and shit themselves. My cat has more of a personality and is more aware of his mortality. You know literally nothing about what they will become, and beyond basic stimuli they have no clue what is happening around them.
Honestly, I feel like the biggest part of it for most of you is that banning abortions really hurts the poor, minorities, and women far more than you and you aren't too fond of any of those groups.
>>767899545
why would it be possible to completely avoid the potential consequences of actions... thats the thing i really don't understand in all of this.
legalizing abortion is attempting to reshape reality to the extent that babies can be murdered just to make things easier for people...
how lazy and irresponsible and childish do you have to be to actually perform the mental gymnastics involved... they aren't even good mental gymnastics.. the entire argument of pro-abortion is that biology, morality, and law don't matter because we don't want them to so we invented a bunch of rules that dont apply in any other situation but when we want to avoid responsibility.
it's like a child playing a game, making up new rules as they go along so they can feel good about themselves.
if I wished it I could float into the air like a soap bubble Winston , i do not wish it . the stars are points of fire a few kilometers in the air we could reach them if we wished.
>>767903103
underage poster
>>767902146
It's not her body. It's another life that she created.
>>767903246
>biology, morality, and law don't matter
Biology says nothing about what is or is not appropriate to do, biology is just studying life and living tissue.
Morality is subjective/bullshit unless you believe in some religious fairy tales.
And the law is by definition made up by us to suit what we think is best for us. Not to mention that currently "the law" supports our right to have an abortion.
Also just a reminder that even if you banned abortions, rich people would still get them by going somewhere else/having a trusted person do it for them. Banning them really just prevents the rest of us from being able to, thereby making upward class mobility less likely because babies are expensive, and our now live babies get to potentially do their part one day as dead soldiers fighting a war that makes those same individuals even more wealthy. So there's that.
>people actually give a fuck whether a woman has an abortion or not
Raise your hand if you remember being a fetus or sliding out of your mum's huge pussy and getting a good taste on the way
>>767885445
Human life begins at the point at which the fetus is able to survive without being physically attached to the mother. Before that it's basically a parasite.
>>767904687
christ, how many times...
why does survivability determine legal status only in the unborn (no reason) and what parasite do you know of is the same species as the host and is their genetic offspring (none)
>>767905199
In any situation in which the Mother would consider abortion? The child is better off never having been born.
Anyone who is prolife but has never adopted a child is a hypocrite.
Anyone who votes to take away social programs is not prolife they are probirth and slavery.
Stop trying to pass laws to control others.
Control your self.
![week-9-fetus-1[1].jpg](https://cdn.randomarchive.com/b/image/1525/677/1525677691981.jpg "week-9-fetus-1[1]")
