Try and convince me with no political alignment, why Communism is preferable to Capitalism.
>>703556260
It's not though.
>>703556260
It is not
>>703556260
Because human nature. The idea of people as blank slates is retarded. You can't teach them to be perfectly altruistic, and you can't create a society without hierarchies. Its internationalist fantasies are especially stupid- people naturally prefer their own nation and culture, class being secondary to that.
Untempered socialism and capitalism are both pretty shit-tier and kikey, but there's a third position that's better than both.
Not
Capitalism is good. Because dollars make sense.
>>703557072
And that third position is Nationalsocialism isn't it?
>>703557358
Or fascism in general. Hitler was a cool dude but I think American fascism is likely to be as tailored to us as National Socialism was to Germany or Falangism was to Spain.
Коммунисты России приветствуют западных коллег. Пролетарии всех стран объединяйтесь!
>>703557827
Cheeki breeki
>>703556260
Helping your fellow man is better than being incentivized to fuck your fellow man in the ass
wow there is a surprising lack of faggotry happening in this thread.
>>703556260
Capitalism is based on selfishness... which is not the entire drive behind all human activity.
Communism is based on sharing... which likewise is not the entire drive behind human activity.
Something in between is better and better describes true humans.
Communism has died where it's been tried.
Capitalism doesn't work... see the usa's $28trillion debt to world investors to prop up failed capitalism for more details.
We need something new.
Find it?
>>703556260
communism is profit at the expense of the many for the enrichment of the few
capitalism is profit at the expense of all, and enrichment of only a handful of individuals.
what's the difference, really?
>>703558649
>Communism is based on sharing
HAHAHAHAHA!
Ladies and gentleman let's create the Pepeism
>>703558746
It was originally a noble idea.
But it doesn't fucking work... for obvious reasons.
>>703556260
It has the potential to be more efficient in regards to altering the chemical equilibrium of the planet.
>>703558649
>usa
>free market capitalism
>FED
>numerous financial regulations
>legislated bank monopolies
you dont know jack bout economics, son.
>>703558649
Mutualist based economy?
Market Socialism?
Something to that affect would be optimal
>>703558010
чики-брики
чик-чирик
Eseentially you're looking at:
"I am owed what my skill and hard work is worth, and no one gets money they haven't earned"
Vs.
"I am owed just as much as anyone else, regardless of worth. Even if I do zero work."
The money comes from the same place, so the only real question is: where in between these two extremes do you think is best?
>>703556260
Because people's worth shouldn't be based on how many little strips of paper with an imaginary value associated with it that was printed by a corrupt group that's only source of power comes from their monopoly over the ability to print out these little strips of paper. Science and medical research is held back because the brightest minds are more focused on making dick pills and hair growth formulas instead of treating disease because rich people are throwing more money at keeping their dicks hard than they are at treating poorer people's disease. Capitalism is rapidly burning flame.
>>703559417
Idi Nahui
>>703559758
Sounds like you want fascism.
>>703559758
your so stupid that you don't understand what value is. i suggest you read a book about basic economics.
less than 50 people control OVER 50% of the worlds wealth. They will keep getting more money because thats how capitalism works. That means less money for us. If communism is executed the RIGHT WAY it could work really well but then again Stalin was chillin in the kremlin having caviar and nice shit while the rest of russia was sucking horse dick
>>703559777
Trips acknowledged. IDI NAHUI!
>>703557072
National SOCIALISM...?
If you say socialism is "kikey" then you are a Jew cock sucking faggot. Nazism = socialism, as the name entails.
Adolf Hiltler: "We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions."
>>703556260
Its not.
Because capitalism will destroy nature and humanity
>>703560110
thats not how capitalism works, thats how crony capitalism works. monopolies don't exist without help from the state. lrn 2 economics.
you know i said i wouldn't fuck with this thread because /b/ level economic discussions are fuckin sad but ill fuck with it.
>>703560285
And if you were a true national socialist, you would know that it's fundamentally different from Marxist socialism.
Marxism is proletarian and encourages resentment of material success, whereas national socialism recognizes the parts that all classes have to play in their nation and encourages cooperation between them. National socialism is against exploitation, not hierarchy.
>>703560378
>muh ancap paradise
A large enough monopoly becomes the state.
>>703561155
ancap? no, just non interventionist fiscal policy, which has existed in the past.
>>703559721
>Meme knowledge
>>703561445
Ah. Well, you're still wrong, just less so.
>>703561574
america, 1800s. honcong, 90s. britain during the industrial revolution.
sup?
>>703561847
No, I know it's existed, it's just shit-tier.
>>703557827
fuck off, no one speaks commie here
>>703561452
Care to define it more "accurately"?
>>703561937
lol, compared to what? the non existent economic system that has done better?
that's what i thought.
Communism would be the best system if human wasn't greedy.
>>703556260
because your mom is like Marx's economic theory. everyone gets a share
>>703562125
see >>703560737
The Spanish miracle and the economic recovery of Nazi Germany await your response.
Arguing solely on economic grounds is retarded, but whatever.
>>703556260
>Communism is preferable to Capitalism
Communism puts humanity's collective needs above all else, causing great suffering.
Capitalism puts humanity's individual needs above all else, causing great suffering.
Both are obviously wrong.
marketingfag with specialization in the politics marketing here.
Communism is dead, and actually they base theyre power in persuasion, they sell fake ideas to the mass and control em througth different methods.
Ill go with capitalism, is better, pays the hard work a man does.
>>703559049
Found the libertarian guys. Took a bit this time.
>>703562413
So are you saying is that we need a balance of both, an intermediate unit of humanity, or something else put before humanity?
Because depending on which I might completely agree with you or think you're an absolute moron.
>>703560737
National socialism is just another flavor of socialism, not Marxism and not communism, which are both global in character/identity.
It's like you are arguing that chocolate ice cream is not ice cream because it is not vanilla ice cream.
I.e., you are a dumbfuck.
Take your Jew-jealousy, shove it up your loose asshole, and fuck off.
>>703562627
>I don't know anything about fascism
>I'm triggered by the word socialism because I know all the modern "right" has to fight with is economics
>>703556260
I can tell from the comments in here that no one has actually read Marx, Engels or Lenin and yet are trying to talk about Communism from what they learned in History 101 and memes.
If you guys want a real discussion from a Marxist, feel free to ask your questions. I can answer most everything you guys have to ask since none of you are informed enough to know which questions actually matter in the debate of Communism.
At it's core, it has a good intention- cooperation. At capitalism's core, it has a bad intention - selfishness.
You can say that 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions', and that they'll actually do evil, but my statement stands.
>>703559721
Why do people think communism means everyone gets paid the same? I know people who lived in the USSR and thats not how it works. Everyone just gets the same shit for free like heat, housing and healthcare. You atill pay for tv and electricty thats your own issue. An engineer did not get just as much as a janitor. He just had to live with one.
>>703562343
>economic recovery of Nazi Germany
the east or the west? because the west was capitalism and the east was hell.
Spain shifted to a tourist economy, whats the big deal? it was also capitalism.
but these don't await my response, in fact i don't they they are relevant at all? I don't have to explain every anomaly to defend fee market capitalism.
>>703562898
Because they don't understand Communism outside of shitty memes and what Fox news tells them.
>>703556260
Because everyone gets equal shit, there shouldn't be some guy who works on a computer making 100k a year while some guy does labor hard work for 20k a year
>>703556260
Essentially, communism is based upon labor. Marx basically says that modern wealth is valued upon an exchange value and a use value. According to Marx, there is another value that is not being accounted for; labor. Money does not take into account the labor put into producing wealth, and therefore capitalism will fail. It will fail because the wealth will allocate to the rich and the poor will be taken advantage of (modern society you could say?). Communism is therefore favorable to the working class, for it is a just distribution of wealth.
>>703563082
>Someone kinda gets it!
Awesome. :D
>>703562978
at some point we just have to ignore people like you
>>703562929
I didn't say the economic recovery of post-Nazi Germany. I said the recovery under Hitler.
Spain's economy under Franco was decidedly not tourism based, so try again there too.
>>703558949
Because we all eat too much salt
>>703562898
Becouse they dont do research before speaking.
Although in the comunist russia the dude who sold you vodka was a spy, your wife too, even your son. Theres a story from a boy who told to the police that his parents were doing stuff against the country and they were killed.
>>703562806
How do you justify what is essentially an ideology of class resentment when a stratification is the only model for a successful, healthy society?
I understand concerns about exploitation, but the answer isn't "lol give it back to the workers".
>>703563181
Yeah because I make too much sense
Dont vote for Trump m8
Communism makes people equal which is way better than the class division we have nowadays here
>>703563199
>recovery under Hitler.
>massive national debt, rationing from tarrifs
what?
again why is this relevant to free market capitalism? you think every example of a successful economic system invalidates all others?
>>703562929
>west was capitalism and the east was hell
We aren't talking after WW2 dipshit.
Before hitler came along, Germany was complete dogshit. They used money as fucking fuel for fire to keep themselves warm. That's how bad it was.
Enter fascism, and bam.
Economy restored.
>>703563483
people didn't get payed the same, not even close.
>>703559758
We didn't get where we are by being socialist. Capitalism has made those that embrace it the most advanced and wealthiest people in history.
>>703563082
While that is true, its also why the USSR fell.
It as your job to paint, not the guy to clean up the paint
>>703563615
>Economy restored.
see
>>703563587
and this was at a time when the entire world crashed because of Americas depression, you know economies naturally recover right? collaboration is not causation.
>>703563585
No its not you dummie.
Leaders are still superior to the common people.
Thats just lies to get powers, theres no equality, thats a concept the human made. Grow up kiddo.
>>703563842
>collaboration
lol i mean correlation
>>703556999
Trips confirms
>>703563587
>war means rationing
No shit.
Fascism is just as successful as a free market, with the added bonus of a strong, healthy nation. Free market capitalism is internationalist and makes no allowance for the exploitation of the underclass by their betters.
>>703563879
Retard confirmed
>>703563332
Yea the soviet union sounds fucked. The guy i work with tells me about the place all the time. I do think their free education system worked well. Everyone had to take entrance exams for the schools they applied to and they were hard as fuck, so some retard didnt waste the countries money on fucking up a degree.
The whole unstocked supermarkets in the 80s and shit tier consumer goods also made it sound shitty.
>>703563464
>when a stratification is the only model for a successful, healthy society?
You're asking me to answer a question where your assumption is assumed to be correct.
But I'll bite - it's NOT the only model for a successful and healthy society. Although no country has actually been Communist in practice, even in the transitionary period in the USSR, we see some amazing things: one of the first countries to introduce paid maternal leave, 100% employment, 96% literacy, free universal education and health care, and the most stable economy the world has ever seen for over 6 decades. And why? Because it doesn't have booms and busts which are innate in a free market model.
But besides all that, you're making an assumption without proving it's true.
>, but the answer isn't "lol give it back to the workers".
When everyone's a worker it makes sense.
>>703563929
>>war means rationing
this was pre war, dude. the war wasnt until 44. we are talking late 30s, early 40s.
>>703563962
You dont have the arguments to prove that fag
>>703563700
Yeah the top 10% get to do whatever they want while the rest struggle to even eat anything other than rice and eggs everyday
>>703563929
also fascism isn't an economic system its a system of government.
>>703563977
The USSR was still stratified. My point remains. Additionally the USSR's claims of 100% this, 96% that are less than credible.
As for everyone being a worker, it's again a bad model for society. You need a warrior class, a leadership, a priestly class- all of which the USSR had, though they were dressed up in communist terminology.
>>703563700
And that's for a reason. ALL socialists and communists say that you need a competitive model to get to a point where necessities are no longer scarce enough to need to use a price mechanism for them.
We've hit that point. The problem is that those who have embraced Capitalism have yet to let go.
>>703564240
>tfw would love communism because I make minimum wage and can hardly pay rent
>tfw I eat peanut butter sandwiches and Ramen every meal
>>703557827
>>703563977
100% employments bad. Im not a fervent anti-communist, but 100% employment lead to people slacking off big time in the ussr and underproduce in factories and mines.
>>703563615
1937 Hjalmar Schacht, Minister of Economics and president of the Reichsbank, told Hitler he couldn't continue to spend or he'd risk hyperinflation. Hitler fired him. The war saved the economy.
>>703564241
It's both.
>>703558649
Crony capitalism is why the US is so fucked up, not capitalism on it's own.
>>703556260
Communism is meant to happen. Since the optimization of the means of production goes greater and greater, soon the work force of mankind will be drastically reduced. In the meantime, population is growing higher, wich means there will be no way to "earn" your mantenience, since work will be rare and limited. If you want to support a system with classes, thousands will have to die from starvation, wich likely leads to revolutions. If not, you'll have to put a system in wich everyone gets what the need, not what they work for. So there will be communism. The wheel of history keeps rolling.
>>703564240
We have the only obese poor on the planet
>>703564375
The USSR was only Socialist. They never got to Communism thanks to Kruschev. So "my point remains" means you can criticize Socialism, but not Communism.
Furthermore, you assert that we "need" a warrior class or leadership. Care to make an argument why instead of asking me to take your word for it?
>>703564537
100% employment is bad in Capitalism. Not Communism. And there weren't any huge issues of underproduction in the USSR when in peace time.
>>703559721
I miss 4th grade.
>>703564780
Basically yes.
Communism is guaranteed to happen no matter what you say unless we destroy our society and environment.
>>703564780
And who pays for it? The government produces nothing
>>703564812
Dude look at the late stages of the soviet union 100% employment fucked with them. I agree with everyhing else you said just not that.
>>703564812
This is known as Dorm room Socialism/Communism
Because in its very essence Communism or the principles it espouses is merely a continuation of the way of life that has got us as far as we did from our dawn to the advent of maybe the agricultural era and at least 5000 years ago. Its the elaboration of the communal living aspect of early man.
Put simply: Communism provides for the basic living of all members while capitalism is dog eat dog and results in the degradation of the many for the benefit of the few. Capitalism is a system dedicated to the advancement of one through the systematic accumulation of wealth. This can only lead to greater and greater power/resources in the hands of a decreasing few as the many soon cannot compete with the wealth of the few.
Communism, or the ideals of communal living, provides for the species. Capitalism destroys it.
>>703563929
Facism is pretty shit m9.
It's only real use is for power-tripping.
>>703564812
Communism even acknowledges the need for such roles, but it just says "lol the workers can do that too," i.e. direct democracy as a replacement for leaders. Direct democracy is as much of a failure as representative democracy, because the average person is not competent to make society-guiding decisions. In a representative democracy they vote for people who promise them gibs, and in a direct democracy they vote for whatever they want at the moment.
And if you want to talk about "muh real communism," we can talk about Catalonia.
>>703564802
They aren't poor if they're obese man, I eat rice and peanut butter sandwiches and I can't gain a lb because I can't afford food everyday
>>703565267
Read what happened when the Pilgrims tried to be communists
>>703556260
Communism is the best political system because it is an ideal. Pure communism can never be achieved because that a governing state needs a system to unify the state and monitor, run basic operations. However, By having a organization to run the state there is a group of people who have power over everyone and it is only basic nature for those who have power to want more control, as well as those who are not in power to feel oppressed and therefore want to gain power for themselves or remove it altogether. Capitalism in theory sums up as everyone has the opportunity to rise up however power and wealth is governed by those who control and monopolize the means to produce and prolong them.
TL;DR both are shitty, not what they are supposed to be, but Cap wins
>>703565330
What does fascism actually mean?
>>703564802
>can buy enough food to be fat
>poor
Lol no
>>703559721
This is not true. No where in communism does it say you get a share for nothing
>>703565453
They get food stamps, and all they buy with it is shitty junk food because they're all too stupid to cook.
They eat like banquet meals and generic brand chip-alikes all day.(At least in the U.S)
>>703564812
>And there weren't any huge issues of underproduction in the USSR when in peace time.
confirmed for being completely ignorant of life the USSR
>>703565267
While I agree that communism would be amazing if done properly...
It won't be done properly. Vast majority of humans are greedy. They care about themselves or their own beliefs and would do whatever possible to abuse this system just as they have with capitalism.
>>703562604
>So are you saying is that we need a balance of both,
This.
Countries like Canada and the nordics manage it by having a capatilist base that has my communist ideas on top. Note they have the highest standard of living in the world. China almost gets to it by having a communist base but also and outlet for entrepreneurship. Unfortunately they also have an insane layer of corruption on top of everything.
>>703556260
It isn't. Democratic socialism is.
>>703565236
I don't understand your point. Socialism and Communism are philosophical in nature - it's called political economy. You of course need to be educated to understand it.
>>703565084
Late stage USSR is certainly debatable, but again, after Kruschev, things started to break down. We have to acknowledge both the good and the bad.
>>703565349
Communism acknowledges the need for ROLES, not CLASSES. Communism is:
A) Classless
B) Moneyless
C) Stateless
And yes, the average person is not competent enough to make those decisions. That's why most Marxists are Marxist-Leninists, who advocate for a vanguard of educated people to begin the first steps. This may not be necessary anymore. After all, we're in 2016, not 1916.
Also, Anarchist Catalonia will only hurt your point, not help it. I'll leave it alone.
>>703565678
I'd say that's you if you disagree.
>>703565680
>Friedman: Well, first of all, tell me is there some society you know that doesn’t run on greed? You think Russia doesn’t run on greed? You think China doesn’t run on greed? What is greed? Of course none of us are greedy; its only the other fellow who’s greedy.
http://allfinancialmatters.com/2011/10/24/milton-friedman-on-greed/
>>703565819
Not quite the balance I was thinking of.
>>703565453
Check out a housing project in the US
>>703565644
I'm in canada and never heard of a food stamp but here in canada food is very expensive compared to there and poor people definitely aren't obese
>>703565460
The pilgrims were an ill equipped group living in an unfamiliar environment. Most died or went to live with the natives of the time. Hardly an example
Look, the Chinese instituted a policy of land share that worked on a principle of each family getting land for themselves and if not passed on it went back to the govt and was doled out again. I'm just saying that we need something better than a giant game of musical chairs
>>703565500
Heavy on authoritarian and class bases make it pretty easy to go on a power trip dude.
>>703562627
>National socialism is just another flavor of socialism
Short history lesson for you, so you won't seem as stupid next time you open your mouth. The Nazis put "socialism" in their name as a bait for workers. Once in power they did everything to suppress any socialists.
>>703565488
Plus it tend to kill millions that don't agree with nits failed principles
>>703556260
>Help me with my history homework /b/!
>>703565877
>I'd say that's you if you disagree.
dude the USSR was a constant disaster of over/under production because prices are impossible to fix, they are too interdependent and complex. I suggest you read the works of actual economists responsible for pricing in the USSR, they describe the nightmare in excruciating detail.
i mean this is basic shit, you are totally ignorant.
>>703565898
Milton Friedman is a hack and it's acknowledged by most economists today. You shouldn't quote him.
>>703565680
Which is why it is imperative to provide for the basic needs with the tech available. No reason we couldn't let people have no more than a set amount of land and access to resources t improve it. Water, power, food. Done
>>703566170
Okay, so I can stop responding to you now. Read a book man.
>>703566179
wew lad
>>703565956
The government gives you money to buy food if you're poor.
Food stamps, (which are actually called something else now) can only be used for food, you get somewhere between $50- $800 a month depending on your situation.
Banquet meals cost 1$, they're terrible for you and taste like cardboard, but they're easy to make and super cheap calories. Poorer people in general tend to buy lower quality food(surprising eh) which is mad cheap if they stick to generics, it's unfortunately also made of sodium and fat.
>>703566004
This is true.
Korea calls themselves Communist. They aren't.
Nazis call themselves Socialist. They weren't.
America calls themselves free. We aren't.
>>703565877
It's the argument of idealistic children. Only people in universities have the luxury of entertaining such nonsense. But their teachers believe it(never having worked in the real world) so you can't blame the kids.
>>703566242
yeah USSR was so good at providing shit they had to allow limited capitalistic trading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_goods_in_the_Soviet_Union#Consumer_Goods_in_the_early_Stalin_years_.281930s.29
seriously you know nothing.
>>703565877
Catalonia is actually a great help to fascists, but sure let's pass over it for now. As for roles versus classes, that's exactly my point. Communism fails to accommodate for specialization or stratification, instead choosing to parasitize off the natural resentment that the working class has for the exploitative upper classes and tell them that destroying the entire system is the only way.
Even in the current year, a random man on the street is not a leader. He has a role to fill, but rather than teach him to be proud of that role, communism teaches him to hate his social betters and fantasize about replacing them with another set- the vanguard you mentioned.
>>703565976
Read about the Pilgrims...you don't know what you're talking about. Not Roanoke. Plymouth Rock
>>703558649
capitalism doesnt work at all. all the college quotations about how great it is wont change the fact that there are millions of people living on the streets, people starving, people cant afford housing anymore, etc etc.
just because a few people prosper does not mean the system works. if all people arnt taken care of in a 1st world society, then that society doesnt work. its just nigger rigged to look like its working
>>703566004
>Marxist socialism is the only kind of socialism
>>703566004
So that you won't seem as stupid....but I can't guarantee anything...
"There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than separates us from it. There is, above all, genuine, revolutionary feeling, which is alive everywhere in Russia except where there are Jewish Marxists. I have always made allowance for this circumstance, and given orders that former Communists are to be admitted to the party at once. The petit bourgeois Social-Democrat and the trade-union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communists always will."
A.Hitler
>>703566519
So you're anti-intellectual. This is a common theme among right-leaning ideology. I probably can't convince you even with facts and evidence as anti-intellectuals don't value such things, so there's no use in wasting my time.
>>703566629
You're free to believe all that, but you're operating off so many assumptions that I don't know where to start.
How does Communism fail to accommodate for specialisation? Stratification sure, because, you know, it's classless. It's supposed to end stratification.
Your arguments are, no offense, specious at best. They sound like they're saying something but they aren't really.
>>703566897
when evaluating an economic system you don't say its good or bad, you compare it to another economic system. so tell me, which system do you have in mind when you say capitalism is a failure? which system is better than capitalism at improving the human condition - and remember, the entire first world run on capitalism.
enlighten me.
>>703567134
I'd like you to detail those assumptions.
>>703556260
We should be working towards a collective society using socialism to temper capitalism
Eventually we will reach communism.
It would take about 100 years if we progress towards it slowly.
>>703567134
Intellectual is a relative term. I never see any facts just insults and opinions.
>>703567134
>>703567453
Also, intellectualism != lack of respect for knowledge.
Someone who jerks off all day to how smart and well-learned he is is not someone I would trust to lead me or my people. Practical experience is just as important as formal education, if not more so.
>>703567131
Well, yeah.
Hitler recognized that if you were a commie and weren't a kike, you were probably having your justified discontent diverted into communism. Such people could be made to see the light of national socialism, but note that he says "former Communists". The ideologies aren't compatible.
>>703567326
still waiting commiefags.. enlighten me!
>>703567453
>Communism fails to accommodate for specialisation
It actually does.
>or stratification
Duh.
>Instead choosing to parasitize off the natural resentment of the working class
This has to do with specialisation how?
>tell them that destroying the entire system is the only way
Well yeah. But why do you assume it's not?
>A random man on the street isn't a leader
That's fine, because Communism doesn't need leaders.
>Communism teaches people to hate the upper class
Not really, unless you're talking about what the masses are hearing rather than Communist theory.
I mean, you think you know what you're talking about, but you haven't read Capital or else you'd know all of these claims are ridiculous.
The worst part about being a Communist is dealing with post-Cold War propaganda where alternative economic theory is not taught, nor is economics as a philosophy, and Communism is a taboo word despite the truth of the matter.
>>703567782
> Practical experience is just as important as formal education, if not more so.
Disagree.
>>703568231
>It actually does. I mean to say it DOES accommodate for specialisation.
>>703568120
The were of the same family. One was internationalist the other was nationalist.
>>703568120
Communists hate fascists and fascists hate Communists. You're correct in saying that they're incompatible. Fascism is a right-leaning ideology and Communism is left, but these terms aren't to be confused with American colloquialisms of "conservative" and "liberal", which are just two slightly varying forms of off-right centrist ideology.
>>703559721
Stupid retarded kid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_according_to_his_needs
>>703559402
Welcome to Scandinavia.
>>703568231
>It actually does.
It doesn't, because specialization is the precursor to stratification.
>This has to do with specialisation how?
It doesn't, it has to do with stratification. Details forthcoming.
>Well yeah. But why do you assume it's not?
Class cooperation is better. A worker and a leader and a soldier all have their duties to perform for the nation.
>Communism doesn't need leaders.
Democracy is shit, we've discussed this.
>what the masses are hearing rather than Communist theory.
What happened to the proletariat being the most important social class? What happened to no leaders being necessary? :^)
>>703568755
I don't hate communists, I just think they're deceived by an ideology that serves the Jew/globalists as much as capitalism does.
>>703568462
There's more to it than that, but even based on that understanding alone you should be able to see why fascism is superior.
>>703569046
>It doesn't, because specialization is the precursor to stratification.
It's not. You can be a anesthesiologist without being "superior" to a nurse.
>Class cooperation is better. A worker and a leader and a soldier all have their duties to perform for the nation.
Proof/argument? Or just more assertions?
>Democracy is shit, we've discussed this.
Communism isn't democratic, though it would depend which of the dozen Communisms you're talking about.
>What happened to the proletariat being the most important social class? What happened to no leaders being necessary? :^)
>WHAT IS VANGUARDISM?
I just explained that, so take your smug emoticon and put it away. You haven't debunked anything.
Theory comes first, practice later.
>>703569255
It doesn't. I should start a discussion with you. The above guy is arguing from a limited knowledge pool.
What makes you think it serves "Jews" and globalism?
>>703556260
Nein! Kommunisten müssen ausgerottet werden.
>>703569614
>It's not. You can be a anesthesiologist without being "superior" to a nurse.
Maybe not. But certain professions have higher status in society than others, either due to culture or to the capabilities required. When you specialize, you create stratification.
>Or just more assertions?
Nope, purely a moral assertion there. Though we can talk about how class resentment is more destructive to the worker than the capitalist.
>Communism isn't democratic
So you're saying there's a leadership?
>WHAT IS VANGUARDISM?
Literally leaders.
>What makes you think it serves "Jews" and globalism?
Communism is internationalist. Even "socialism in one country" was conceived with goal of further expansion. Internationalism echoes.
>>703562268
2 bad
>>703568882
Still not classless or stateless.
>>703570316
>But certain professions have higher status in society than others
Not under Communism.
>Though we can talk about how class resentment is more destructive to the worker than the capitalist.
Make your argument then.
>So you're saying there's a leadership?
>WHAT IS A FALSE DICHOTOMY?
There's more options than just "democracy" or "leadership". Seriously, just a few books on Communist theory would REALLY get your bearings on straight. I'd be happy to make recommendations.
>Literally leaders.
Because Socialism is a transitional period before Communism in most forms of the theory. When everything settles from the transitions, the "leaders" (misnomer tbh) disappear.
>>703562806
Lmao
>implying that reading makes it changes it's points and values
>goDiepls
>>703556260
free stuff
>>703562975
#feelsBad2BeMerican
>>703570791
>WHAT IS A FALSE DICHOTOMY?
Look fam, someone has to make decisions. There's actually a greater need for decision-making in socialism than in capitalism. Do you expect me to believe that that need will simply dissipate when "muh trve communism" is achieved?
As for books, how's this. Make a few recommendations and I'll make some too. I used to hate commies, but now I just see them as deluded.
>>703556260
No super rich taking all the wealth and living like gods while most of us live in hovels.
>>703558649
You're saying we need a third option?
>>703571045
No, the values and points never changed. Most people just don't read so they don't understand them.
>>703571391
You have yet to make any decent points. Feel free to judge us as "deluded" but chances are you're just misinformed or poorly educated.
>>703563615
Are retarded? Maybe ww1 aftermath had something to do with it? Maybe us and France had something to do with it
>>703571669
A Third Position, you might say?
>>703571707
And you've spent the thread pretending that ideal communism is a legitimate possibility, and that the very real flaws in it can simply be dismissed with "MY ideology doesn't need that, and also shoots fire from its dick." Try a political philosophy that exists in the real world.
>>703571921
And when Hitler kicked out the international banks and nationalized industry, the economy took a complete 180. Almost like central planning works. Soviet Union went from agricultural backwater to world superpower in just around 20 years with socialism.
>>703572112
Perhaps, some kind of third... reich?
Why should I convince you one failed system is better than another failed system?
>>703563700
Yeah 100% legit m8... bet those black workers really embraced it hard or maybe the white workers in 1867? In the us? Anyone recall that? I mean common even then capitalism failed. And it will always fail. The only way forward is to convert every system into socialism. And don't give me that liberal bs about keeping capitalism it won't work
>>703572510
>we need mo money fo dem programs
>>>/a/frica
>>703563700
Those that rigged it
>>703572112
It is a legitimate possibility. And not only that, it's inevitable short of Capitalism collapsing the world to an unworkable state.
Every system has flaws. We don't dismiss them. But the "flaws" you've addressed aren't real flaws.
>>703572852
They are flaws.
Please, condescend to explain to me how any society can function without a leadership.
>>703564227 he may not but I do you fucking piece of human waste. The only way to gain maxim power is to obtain knowledge over others. That is why the government never shares any intelligence. How ever if the population of this country has the power to recognise this then they will rebel. And I'd like to point out that the American election doesn't really support you claim with superiority...
>>703573044
Anarchist Catalonia would be a good one to point to since you already know about it. They were Communist and functioned perfectly well up until the Spanish army came in and "reclaimed" them.
Leadership is only needed as regulation. You can regulate without leadership.
>Peter Kropotkin - The Conquest of Bread
>Peter Kropotkin - Mutual Aid
These are great for both Communist and Anarchist theory.
And no, they aren't flaws. They were addressed 2 centuries ago. There are real flaws with Communism but you don't know what they are because you're literally uneducated about what Communism actually is and how it works.
>>703564375
Stfu the termology for user scientists is Nazi. I'd also point out that it was the amount of deception us did that made the ussr fell. It had power yet it was to focused on war to work. Also it didn't really work due to corruption than again Nixon :/
>>703573461
Anarchist Catalonia was a short-lived statelet in the midst of a civil war that spent most of its time destroying Spanish culture. It's not an argument any more than Russia during the revolution is.
My primary criticism is that practice matters more than theory. Theoretical politics, including and especially communism, often depends on certain assumptions about the nature of man and society that are objectively false. Your ideology has been consistently shown to b a failure- or, at least, to be so incapable of supporting itself against external (Franco) and internal (Stalin) enemies as to be unworkable. Of course, I am speaking to someone who honestly believes that the resentment-filled ramblings of a NEET Jew are a sound basis for political and economic theory, so the fact that he believes you can thrash out societal problems by sitting in a room and thinking a lot about said NEET Jew shouldn't surprise me.
>>703564713
>Implying capitalism could exist without a state to enforce private property rights
>>703574447
Looks like you're an anti-intellectual too.
Catalonia and the USSR are both fine examples of the successes of Socialism. You can claim they aren't, but have fun being on the side opposite of the intelligentsia.
You claim practice matters more than theory. But practice is based on theory.
>Theoretical politics, including and especially communism, often depends on certain assumptions about the nature of man and society that are objectively false.
Do you know what objectively means? You can't just say "I know what the nature of man is objectively" and expect to be taken seriously. Tabula rasa hasn't even been debunked yet, though I fall somewhere in the middle myself. Most evidence points toward human nature being malleable based on your society, culture and experiences.
If you take Confucian China, for instance, they had a much more moralistic system than we did and it was because they taught children from an early age that the nature of man is inherently good. It's all about HOW you raise people.
As Lenin famously said, "Give me just one generation of youth and I'll transform the whole world."
You're just an armchair intellectual with no real knowledge about these things. You can maybe defend your own ideologies, but you can't attack others without understanding them. Hell, you don't even know the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.
Also, the NEET Jew that you're talking about was quite possibly the most influential person in human history. Like it or not, the man was a genius, and his diagnosis was not only right during his life, but his prophecies are coming true today.
>>703568882
>Implying Scandinavia's means of production aren't privately owned
>>703558010
I v damke!
>>703575549
>You're just an armchair intellectual with no real knowledge about these things.
Pot, meet kettle. You would rather pretend your ideology reflects reality than adopt one that actually works.
>I know what the nature of man is objectively
Didn't say that. But just like the fabled economic man, the ideal man that communism depends on is not a reflection of the real thing. He's a construction who exists to fulfill the needs of masturbatory communist fantasies.
I also think it's interesting that first you call me anti-intellectual and then an armchair intellectual. Which is it, commie?
>>703576670
I guess this is why having a discussion on 4chan isn't worth it.
I am nearly done with my PhD program. My undergrad was a double major in Philosophy and Economics, and my PhD will be in Philosophy with a concentration with political economy. I've published articles and essays and am on my way to being known in the world of academia. So, you can keep your pots and kettles to yourself. I know my stuff. I've had nearly a decade of it in a rigorous setting.
You said that the assumptions about man made by Communists are objectively false. That means that you know what it is (or is not), as they are inversely true.
You're an anti-intellectual who entertains the notion that you know what you're talking about. Using the phrase "armchair intellectual" isn't actually calling you an intellectual.
I think I'm done here. If you seriously want to participate in these kinds of discussions, then allow me to point you in the right direction. Otherwise, be content knowing that you're just another person in the way of people making real headway in the world.
>>703556260
But it isn't