Daily reminder; that if you aren't a communist, you're literally cucking yourself to your employer.
Why aren't you a communist?
>>674828125
Are you like 14? Communism doesn't work. Fuck off with your nonsense and get a job instead of living of benefits.
>>674828125
You don't deserve to live in a worker's paradise.
Communism has killed more people than hitler by tenfold fgt
>>674828805
so what? Are you some pansy liberal? The quickest way to end a war is lose.
My country used to be riddled with famines,illiterate and industrially undeveloped until Communism fixed it.
So I'm all for it.
>>674828655
This is the same fag that would defend billionaires getting bailouts. For some reason they think taxes of the lower and middle classes going towards the top .1% is ok, but not the .1% paying taxes to help the poor and middle class. The rich use you as a useful idiot.
>>674828125
>>674828655
Wow, "it doesn't work". What a great argument.
>>674828805
>muh gorillions
Can you back that up?
And how many people has capitalism killed?
>>674828805
>not taking into account the implicit deaths of billions due to capitalism, and its predecessor feudalism, and future massacre of this planet in the next 150 years or so if capitalism continues to have free reign
>>674829232
Excellent, comrade. Where are you from?
>>674829784
The image is related,reverse search it.
>>674829547
>but but gommernissem is scurry :(((
>>674828655
Get a load of this guy. He's never even read the Manifesto.
>>674828125
If I was a Communist my employer would be the State, and I'd be cucked to them.
The simple fact is communism would be the GOAT if humans weren't stupid, it simply won't work with the way people are nowadays
We just have to hope one day a real communist utopia will surface somewhere and we can learn from it
also we need to drop the image of Stalin and USSR that everyone thinks of when you say communism, just like national socialists have dropped the image of hitler and death camps
>>674830206
>In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis, "common, universal") is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.
>>674830206
You literally don't know what communism is if you think it includes a State.
>>674829515
Stalin is more than enough proof of death by communism
>>674830549
Well. This might be true if we were purely speaking about America. Then you should do as Sanders does.
However, an important part of getting people to understand Socialism, is to make them understand that the USSR was not this hellhole the burgers think it was.
>>674828125
Yeah, nature is cucking me. I hate that I have a plethora of employers that have to compete for my labor.
>>674829515
>Wow, "it doesn't work". What a great argument.
Yet it is the only one proven by world history
Capitalism >Bad
Communism >Bad
Let's create something new that'll be only benefits to people.
How about peopleism
100% monthly income tax, free housing and food rations
You then get a salary of 100k per month per person for whatever
If the government runs out of money then they'll print more. No inflation because prices of everything are fixed by government
Self sustained, no international interaction. Everyone is also given a job and trained to standard
If you don't work you'll be executed
>Utopia
>>674830775
Oh wow, name dropping is awesome proof.
I'm not a USSR fanboy, but you need to realize you've been lied to.
>>674828125
Jokes on you. I own my means of production
>communists win
>everyone celebrating
>no military network
>no organized state or government
>North Korea nukes us and we won't see it coming
>240 years of capitalism killed by one night of communism
We'll be free from the state r-r-right?
>>674829232
Ayy based Yugoslav
>>674831340
Ah yes, of course. My parents didn't suffer and everything they went through in soviet Europe is a lie made up by the government and media. Like the moon landing, fake.
>>674831089
>employers competing for your labor
Holy fucking shit. What capitalist utopia are you from?
Or are you only speaking from rational self-interest, and you somehow make 100k+/year, and not from a political one?
Because if you aren't producing as much as you consume or perhaps a little more then clearly we cannot use the big organization of our society for the purpose of keeping you alive because your life isn't any benefit to us and it cannot be of very much use to yourself.
>>674831018
At least we have burgers. Farmers dydn't even have grains toward the end of the war.
>>674831340
I really hope your joking, you can't seriously believe Stalin wasn't a murdering oppressive asshole
Like, there isn't a troll in the world who would try to spin this
It's a fact
This is like /pol/ denying WW2 except much worse
>>674831390
Damn you.
We're coming bucko.
>>674828125
2016 and you're not an anarcho-capitalist. For shame. For shame.
>>674828125
History of USSR in a nutshell (3000 pages).
tl;dr USSR was much worse than Nazi Germany
>>674830549
>The simple fact is communism would be the GOAT if humans weren't stupid, it simply won't work with the way people are nowadays
Primitive human society was something much akin, if not identical to, communism. We're obviously smarter now and are resources are more secure, so it shouldn't be too difficult to recreate. There's also the issue that humans probably aren't this fucked up by nature, but are forced into greed and selfishness to survive in capitalism which seeks to take as much from them and give it to the top. Much of our violent crime comes from people not being properly cared for and falling behind because their economy has abandoned them, as well. Humans are social animals. It makes a lot more sense for us to be naturally inclined to do what's best for the species overall than our individual survival at the expense of everyone else. That's not a good strategy to last as a species. You can see the evidence of this that climate change has on Third World countries who get dicked over because CEO's want to produce shit the cheapest way possible, fuck the future of humanity.
>>674831610
This
I really don't understand the hate on America
If you have any brains at all it's easy to make a living, get a house to settle in and eat burgers for life
>>674832005
Silly anon! Stalin was just pranking us!
The Volga was just a joke bro
>>674831811
True. It was a rough patch for the USSR at first. It continued to be so in the shape of imperialism, but there were no famines after 1933. People like to point out famines as example of why a system doesn't work, but famines were really common in all feudal pre-industrialized societies.
>>674832364
In all pre-industrialized societies*
>>674831674
I work towards Anarcho-Capitalism everyday.
>>674832488
I approve this message.
>>674832005
I'm not an USSR apologist,far from it actually,but the countries of the Ex-USSR were undeveloped as all fuck and lacking behind the other western countries much before the Bolscheviks came to power.
It was a miracle it managed to exist for so long,let alone industrialize and send a man to space.
>>674832274
Capitalism does play a part in our actions, especially the poor people who get fucked over by the elite
But the fact remains that if you asked a friend if he would share what he makes with everyone else, he'd laugh and say sorry but no, I earned this, it's mine.
Humans can be selfish and evil by nature, why do you think elites and CEO's that abuse the third world exist?
Communism worked with primitive humans because we hadn't learned how to be tricksters and how to make a buck from 50 cents, the Jew hadn't come along yet either
>>674831939
I'm shaking in my boots over here. Communism aint coming any time soon, anon. Not in any of our lifetimes, at least to the US. meanwhile, i employ a few dozen people at slightly above market rates...and they can leave at any time. Meanwhile, I'm the one withmy personal assets at stake if my company folds. I have the risk and the reward. Seems fair to me.
>>674828125
I don't understand why people celebrating communism are not persecuted as people celebrating fascism when communism had much more victims.
Because id rather cuck myself to a private employer than cuck myself to the government.
>>674831818
Okay, then it probably shouldn't be difficult to prove.
Because communism is a pipe dream that only works in an ideal utopia wherein all human work is elective, due to automation of essential productions and labors.
And wherein humans aren't greedy assholes, ever.
>>674832488
Feudalism doesn't work dude. We've tried it.
>>674832364
You ever read about false scarcities? People talk about the famines, but never businesses wasting food and trashing clothes to keep the supply down for the best profits. We have all the resources on Earth to care for every person on Earth, but don't because you can't make money off it and no one would be desperate enough to participate in the bourgeoisie's bullshit money games. We let hundreds of thousands of people die everyday because of this. Literally should be considered on par or worse than the famines of the USSR and other attempted communist societies.
>>674830719
>implying any country would function without a state
>>674832705
if it fails you'll ultimately all be in the same position.
You'll be looking for a new job.
>>674832691
It's a shame they played into kennedy's grubby little hands and bankrupted themselves shooting things into space
>>674832821
Because it is founded in sound economic principles, and not in xenophobia.
:')
They did try to make it the worst thing ever. The Red Scare was real, and we're clearly still suffering from it.
>>674828125
I used to be a lot like you. Probably still am. Do I agree with what the U.S. government has done in the past 100%? No. But capitalism is probably the best system we have. I remember watching an episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit and they were saying the key to world peace is economic freedom. If people can food and luxuries and still have the system keep turning and turning, everying is pretty okay. Capitalism is smart in the sense that humans are not. Humans need incentives to work. You get hired at job, have some disposible income, job keeps putting out goods, everyone happy.
>>674832845
Show me the proof hitler committed genocide and I'll show you proof that Stalin did
>>674833078
>implying the State doesn't exist because of capitalism, as a pacifier of class struggle and the broad, violent arm of imperialism and thus would serve no purpose in a society without class, without infinite market growth on a finite planet, and isn't founded on making money
>>674832291
Thank you. And I completely agree.
Although capitalism is flawed, it is a great alternative to communism, this being because to make money you have to either work for someone or work for yourself, and it's always for a service or product which other people buy from you. If people are buying from you you're contributing to society in some form. The only reason the 1% are so rich is because the 1% did something to earn that money, although not always, and it's not perfect, it's better than communism as communism just creates unrest and corruption and slows down creative innovation
>>674833357
>fascism is built on xenophobia
This is what communists think, wew lad
>>674832691
Just read that book or at least first two chapters where Solzhenitsyn write about changes in Russia. There's no miracle involved when you use tens of millions of slaves from Germany to China, kill almost all of them and at the end you just use mostly stolen technology to impress the world.
>>674833131
Accept i would be homeless and penniless. Presumably the people I have paid to do their jobs have some savings. I do too but my bank made me put up all my personal assets as collateral on my business loan.
>>674828125
- Because I'm not 15 years old
- I'm not poor
- I don't blame others if they have more money than me
- And I didn't fail 8th grade history and high school economics. I also understand basic human psychology
Communism may sound nice to some, but it wouldn't work on any large scale. And most states that try it never pass the Socialist dictatorship phase.
I also love how communists use Maoist and Soviet symbols, but cry about fascism.
>>674832488
Waste of dubs. Go suck some billionaire cock
Ya'll niggas need some good economists.
Capital and Interest
Human Action
Individualism and Economic Order
Man, Economy, and State
Principles of Economics
Eugen Böhm von Bawerk
Walter Block
Peter Boettke
Thomas DiLorenzo
Frank Fetter
Roger Garrison
Friedrich Hayek
Henry Hazlitt
Robert Higgs
Hans-Hermann Hoppe
Steven Horwitz
Jesús Huerta de Soto
Israel Kirzner
Ludwig Lachmann
Don Lavoie
Peter Leeson
Fritz Machlup
Carl Menger
Ludwig von Mises
Robert Murphy
William H. Peterson
Murray Rothbard
Joseph Salerno
Friedrich von Wieser
Richard Ritter von Strigl
Gottfried Haberler
Oskar Morgenstern
>>674833593
Exactly, it is true that under capitalism you always have a boss and are never truly free from the grasp of the government but as long as you keep your head down, make smart investments and work towards a career you can build a nice retirement
My mother is 49 and only needs 5 more years before she has enough cash to retire because she worked her way up
Communism will be great for 6 months because there will be no poor people, but only because everyone will be poor sharing resources
When those get low, the poorest will be excommunicated for not contributing and civil unrest begins
>>674833014
Yeah I agree. The wastefulness of capitalism is fucking depressing.
>>674828805
They jut had the wrong niggas in charge. I'll be nice wit mines
>>674833781
What the fuck is that photo
>>674833781
this
I don't understand how someone think it's ok to use red star on Russian Air Force aircrafts. It's like saying: "Fuck you, history!"
>>674834182
>there would be no garbage dumps under communism.
Ironically, that appears to be a pile of sxrap metal awaiting recycling
>>674829291
its time for your generation to put on the yoke. don't want to work? fine then you can go fight our wars.
>>674833593
>>674834066
This is fucking hilarious because I have no clue if it's a commie false flag or serious.
>>674829905
so you have no answer for him.
>>674834182
Give Indians (the super poor ones) a million dollars and watch how they waste that shit
Money is cancer, we've been throwing money at Africa for years and the problem only grows bigger everyday
You can cut the head off the snake (America and its capitalism) but the snake will grow another head
Guess what happens if America becomes communist? Society collapses, 1% leave to their safe havens and global superpowers mop up what's left of our resources by force
There's not enough communism threads. Good job, OP. You've made my day.
http://www.perc.org/
>>674833593
>you have to either work for someone or work for yourself
In communism, you work for yourself and take home exactly what you produce. Your surplus goes to those that can't work, like children, or whose labor doesn't produce a material product to be passed around, like guards.
>The only reason the 1% are so rich is because the 1% did something to earn that money
Many of the 1% were already born rich and just worked their way further up or maintained. It's like you don't understand rich people get rich because they pay you less in an hour than the money you produce for your employer in an hour, and then they go sell whatever product or service they provide at a price above what it took to make it. The CEO/boss takes home the surplus and shares some of it with his board of directors. You live in relative squalor because you are not rewarded the full fruits of your labor. This is the unsaid agreement you sign your name to each time you get hired for a job, whether you were aware of it at the time or not.
>>674829291
What you dont understand is that billionaires dont fet bailouts. Huge companies that are critical to the economic well being of nations get bail outs. And rightfully so.
>>674834482
Probably should've thought more about my propaganda.
>>674833593
this lol
communism would work in a small group, but when youre dealing with 320 million people (assuming ur americunt) capitalism rewards entrepreneurship and the free market and thats why the 1% are rich and deserving of their wealth lol communism is so backward, do you want to be paid the same amount as a person who contributes less to society? it might work in theory but humans are human, we have a desire to be the #1 but when your ideology doesn't reward your endeavour whats that point?
capitalism is flawed but it definitely outweighs communism lol
>>674830206
There are other ways other than state capitalism - which was the stalinist sovjet union and its friends after 2nd WW.
>>674831248
You are dumb, and have no historical conscious at all, because you name communism bad only by the historical narratives you are familiar with, and identify this movement with USSR and stuff, which were clearly far from communism. And if we really want to name them so, then we can find other type of communism out there. Like Maoism or Situationalism.
>>674828125
i used to fuck a communist.
she'd come over sometimes while her boyfriend was away after school.

once the door would close she'd almost instantly get naked. most times she'd put on her favorite song and start sucking. then she would cry. her tears and makeup would drip down her face onto my dick. its surprising how cold tears are. eventually i finally asked her what was wrong. in between licks she told me that her favorite song was also her bfs favorite song. so even though she loved hearing it and it totally got her pussy wet, it also made her think about the fact that she was cheating on her boyfriend. i dont think i ever came harder down somebodies throat then right after she told me that. she was beautiful. we dont hang out anymore. wanna get lunch?

this was the song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tgwFpMA61c
>>674834779
Holy kek he thinks that under communism you would only give away your surplus
My sides
>>674834638
No false flag, it's serious
Maybe I worded some things wrong but if you honestly think communism is a solution then maybe you just lack reading comprehension
>>674828125
What the hell do your political beliefs have to do with how you're treated by your employer?
>>674834229
From what I can tell its either a Dravidian, or Northern Indian in black face.
The only reason I think its black face is the palms are black.
>>674834182
shows scrap metal pile at smelter.
>>674834182
Hi, I live in eastern Europe since 1971 and I let me tell you -- commies wasted almost 75% of all resources possible just to fit five-year plans and stuff.
http://www.cato.org/
http://fee.org/
http://mercatus.org/
https://mises.org/
https://www.aynrand.org/
http://www.libertarianism.org/
>>674828125
Having some socialism works and is good for example universal healthcare, government companies. But fullblown communism is shit. If you think its not then talk to people who grew up in the U.S.S.R
And if you are a communist, you're cucking yourself into abject slavery to your masters
>>674834673
If America becomes socialist (the phase that leads to communism) it would attempt to liberate every other nation on earth. Revolution doesn't stop untill everything is red.
>>674833974
LOL NIGGA NOOOOOOO
>>674834929
Communism would be god awful in our society, we are born selfish
Our empathy rarely extends past what's on our horizon, you really think the 300 million amerifats will suddenly drop their savings on helping lazy communist faggots?
>>674835058
This
>>674835042
>Dravidian
You learn something new every day
>>674835307
>he doesn't know about wage slavery
>>674835004
What would you suggest I read to understand why I'm so stupid? :')
>>674828125
Indeed comrade
>>674834066
My main problem with communism is the lack of innovation it provides.
While capitalist nations prospered and created new technologies and grew wealthy.
The soviet states fell behind technologically and financially. The only innovation made there was to compete with western nations for pride and whatever. Take that away and you get decaying countries, famine, black markets and corruption.
At least in capitalist states you had people working together and look how well that turned out.
I mean, in communism what's the point of setting up a automobile factory and company if you don't really get any money from it, it would be easier to be a farmer or anything else. Not to mention that creating a brand new vehicle or engine would cost too much and no need for it due to limited competition which is doing the same as you
While in capitalism you get companies competing to get your money so they create new innovative ideas that will make their product stand out and be better than their competition
>>674831018
>>674830587
Good quote from a guy who was payed 30 million Deutsche Mark to start a revolt in Russia
I do love the parallels between Agnostic Atheism and Capitalism.
It is the default position. Capitalists to not claim to know what they could not know. They do not have the burden of proof.
>>674828125
Just a friendly daily reminder, no ones born gay, youre mentally handicapped and getting kicked out of the gene pool, have a wonderful saturday night
>>674828125
Because I own a business.
>>674834929
Shut up Marxist swine
Anybody who supports Communism is a jewboy slave
>>674835025
He means everyone should own everything, there shouldn't be property. And people should just want to build stuff for no reason.
Because that totally makes sense.
So the person who built the company should owns as much of it as you, the 17 year old stoner who just started work yesterday.
And we all work not for ourselves, but for the glory of humanity or something.
It totally makes sense. And I know OP is truly altruistic. He probably shares all his possessions with the community.
>>674835058
>it wasted
>to build up industry
You wot?
>>674834845
You basically read my mind and put it into better words than me
>>674835593
I never said you were stupid, but if you can think communism works in 2016 you must have some defect
>>674835723
Another reason they dislike innovation is that if they built say, a sports car, only the richest leaders would afford it and it would be the first step in creating social classes again
Communism is great if your a 500 person farming and mining community
Not very good if you're a 7 billion strong civilization that loves new things and having more than others
>>674835303
>is good for example universal healthcare, government companies
Have you ever been in socialist hospital? Well yeah, everyone can have some medical attention but it's shitty for you as for everyone else. It looked like in todays african hospital back in regional general hospital in socialist Czechoslovakia. And government companies were the reason communism ended in 89th for economical reasons.
Commies getting btfo in this thread. Nice work my freedom-loving, capitalist brothers
>>674835723
> in communism what's the point of setting up a automobile factory and company if you don't really get any money from it
You like cars right? Lots of people like cars. So the people who want cars and know how to make cars go make some fucking cars. Because they want them. They make more cars than they necessarily need and give out the surplus to car-less people who want a car.
There's also such a thing as Fully Automated Luxury Communism where machines do as much work as possible and people can spend their time instead of working to make a living, they have the time and energy for art, innovation, space exploration, etc.. It's worth looking into if it interests you.
>>674835723
>the sovjets fell behind
Stopped reading.
Russia was a huge fucking shithole before the USSR industrialized it.
First it had been torn apart by the brutal Tzar regime. Then WW1. Then finally revolution.
It was so far behind but still managed to hold off pretty much every imperialist nation on earth for 70 years.
Lol.
>>674836251
They'll learn soon enough the downfall of communism when they look at the advertisement for that new sports car and feel the 101th "disabled/underage/not capable of work" bum reaching into their pocket
B-b-but it's okay because we're all in this together right homeless ghost of Stalin?
>>674830587
we need the lower classes as work forces, fuck you and fuck your commie bullshit
>>674836427
>Machines
>Machines were made by god
>Nobody is making the machines to make machines to make machines to make cars
>invents machine making machine to make cars
>has to build all the machines to machine the secondhand machine to car
>logic
>???
>literally marx
>>674836519
But you forget, like /b/, Russia was always a shithole...before during and after "communism"
>>674832700
>>674832274
I think you both get it wrong guys. We shouldn't use human nature as an argument this way. Obviously everyone wants to keep up its being, it's called CONATUS. This doesn't make anyone bad or good.
And the total abandon of capitalism, I'm not sure it's possible as going back to the primal ages. There are too many people on the earth, and we have way too large societies.
So we can only grip communism today as recreating the ways of production, from reproduction to production, and reconstruct the political power, from the electoral aristocratic way to a more and more participial democratic path.
>>674836206
Please use arguments.
I even asked which books you would suggest since you've clearly educated yourself on the subject.
>3.5 billion people in poverty
>c-capitalism works!
>>674836666
Yes my lord
>>674836625
>we need slavery
Also, aren't you part of the work force?
>2017-1
>being a commie
kys
>>674836519
>Hold off (Literally deadly winters)
>Finally revolution (literally funded by the German Reich)
>Industrialization (literally supported by German engineers moved to USSR to help industrialization)
>Massproduction (weapon tech was literally stoneage and many of the parts for their tanks were made by Krupp in Germany)
>Hold off (nearly lost to sweden, a country with 90x less people in it)
>Finally realize: Russians are really the niggers of europe. They are forced to be double if not quadroople the amount to beat a foreign army.
>>674836004
No. It ended in industry but there was no output.
Eg. one factory had to made 10 tons of product that second factory needed as input but they had to use only 2 tons of it so other 8 tons were put in storage where it stayed for few months or years and then it was thrown away as a garbage to make free space for new useless shit made in the first factory.
>>674836251
>Cold War propaganda, unfounded claims, and bourgeoisie dick sucking counts of BTFO'ing commies with facts and actual education.
You're literally too ignorant to know you're ignorant.
>>674836960
>>674836923
Again, It doesn't take a book or fancy arguments
Communism is a perfect ideal for a primitive people, not a people raised on capitalism
>>674836519
The nail in the coffin was the retarded pride race against USA sending shit into space, communist cucks bankrupted it once and for all
>>674836427
You spent money on production and materials, and maintenance of machines. So you now have a surplus of cars and however amount in debt. Anyone that wants to not go bankrupt will want to sell the remainder of those cars. And become self sustained, investing profits into new machines better workers more factories and whatever else. If you give away your surplus then you soon lose profits and everything becomes a stalemate, no extra production, no new innovation etc. If this carries on then less cars are produced overall and not to mention what's the point of buying cars if you know you can get one for free. So even less profits and smaller market
I hope this made sense, it's 3am and I'm tired and not a native speaker of this tongue
>>674828125
COMMUNISM IS A TEMPORARY SETBACK ON THE ROAD TO FREEDOM
>>674837192
>literally picture
>>674836960
How about roughly 50% of the worlds population lives in poverty. Its an ugly figure, yes. But that is better than at any time of human history
>>674837163
Wow, sounds like you've got some pretty retarded people over there.
Good luck with that.
>>674828125
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DozeQuEMgbY
>>674837476
Or the fact that the average joe who provides for his family and can retire at 60 because of capitalism has nothing to do with global poverty?
A lot of those poor nations have fucked themselves up with over reproduction and generally being retarded
Do you think India would be greatly improved if America became communist? Or the war torn shithole that is Africa?
>>674837542
I'm laughing so hard right now
>>674837476
>Implying a world with an economic system can co-exist with a world that has no poverty at all
>If the poor become richer the money has lost value and the poor are still poor yet again
>3.5 billion people
>we're still 7 billion more people than what deserves to be on the planet
>Kill all humans
>????
>Profit
>>674833781
According to this, you clearly know nothing about communism.
Where does it come from, what are the contemporary theories, etc.
You are 9000 units far from any philosophical ground, and this doesn't make your judgment more right, or more grounded, and most certainly not more real.
You, like most of the wannabe master debaters, make some kind of strawmans that represent communists, which is ridiculously stupid as an argument, where you try to look smart. pls dont do this, rather read Althusser, Ranciere or Badiou
>>674835303
I live in the UK, it's capitalist.
I have free healthcare, life hack?
Also my parents told me how you'd barely ever get treated in time if you were lucky to find a doc, so you'd have to find a private doctor instead and it was expensive
>>674836960
Friendly reminder poverty will never be eradicated under capitalism because it is the fire under your ass to force to work and sell your labor below it's real value so you don't end up a poorfuck, or if you're a poorfuck, so that you don't end up a homelessfuck or a deadfuck. No one would participate in capitalism if they didn't have to just to not have an even shittier life/die.
>>674828125
communism--like multiculturalism--is a failed experiment
now...would someone please explain all this to bernie sanders and hillary clinton and obama?
>>674837413
Holy fucking shit.
If you're just going to spam 'I'm right you're wrong' then just gtfo.
>>674833014
This, newfaggots
There are more overweight people in the world than underweight people.
We have enough food and technology to feed the entire global population for years.
And yet, many people are still tremendously malnourished or starving.
Why?
Because its not profitable to feed the population. Theres no money to be made.
How can a capitalist justify the fact that, with capitalism, profit is valued more than humans?
self-employeed, why would i let people make money off me?
>>674837649
It's called "five-year plans", made in USSR.
>>674837725
>Do you think India would be greatly improved if America became communist? Or the war torn shithole that is Africa?
Yes?
Do you realize how hard we exploit them? Do you know the term 'banana republic'?
>>674836213
Yeah I been to government run hospitals here in Canada a few times. Wait times are pretty bad but at least you won't get sent back onto the street if you're insured for a different hospital.
>>674838125
I feel like your not understanding what I'm saying, I'm giving you my opinion
No one is 100% right or wrong, in my opinion communism is flawed
Since your interested in a reason, I'll say what I think
If you want books or articles, I'll pass because I don't give a shit what anti communists think, their opinions are paid for
>>674838211
You wouldn't.
But what happens if you can no longer employ yourself?
>>674837414
>You spent money on production and materials, and maintenance of machines. So you now have a surplus of cars and however amount in debt.
Okay, I see the problem here. Communism is a moneyless society. There's no such thing as profit, debt, or paying money for resources. If people like your idea and want what you produce/are going to produce, they'll give you what you need to make whatever it is you promised to produce. Goods are democratically decided on. Do people want, say, a smartphone? Yes. So they'll help you make them not for money, but because it's something they want.
I hope that's easy enough to understand. Your English is fine, but what the fuck are you doing up at 3 am? You should go get some sleep, anon. :-)
>>674838562
>still no argument
>>674837342
>>674837542
Meanwhile, communism hasnt improved the situation of humanity one fucking iota. At least capitalism ended mass slavery and brought on enormous technological advancements that we all enjoy today and use to communicate with each other right now.
>inb4 wage slaves
Fucking useless term that cheapens the meaning of true slavery. Real slaves dont have big screen tvs, freedom of speech, etc. Or any property or any freedom for that matter. Oh geez, that sounds like life under communism, doesnt it?
>>674837416
Mission: the destruction of any and all Chinese communists.
>>674838151
>Newfaggots
>Being this new
>People die all the time
>Not really a big deal
>Some people should die
>Old
>Hunchbacks
>Autists
>Hyper Allergic shitkids
>Disabled
>Downies
Nature literally have all of the above killed
Lions will kill sick lions
Zebras will stomp their own children to death if born wrong
Humans, takes care of the genetically weak and creates a future biological disaster whereas 99% of the population is deadly allergic to dust and grass
Humans are literally the only specie on the planet that doesn't kill biological failures of life
>Jews made it so
>>674836519
Cyka blyat, amirite.
The industry of the USSR was a piece of shit. Comparable to 1800 UK. And don't deny that the USSR didn't fall behind because I'm pretty sure that they still have similar technology to 1950's USSR in 1980 while the western nations were developing new technologies like the internet, UAVs, flat screens and faster smoother cars.
Most advancements of tech were from the fall of Germany and trades with western nations like the mig program which was pretty much a sabre and and meteor combined
>>674838167
No actually, thats mostly due to corruption, which by the way seems to run rampant in any system attempting communism
What are you people even talking about?
Communism is not some equal working class thing.
Communism is when the government has full control over the economy.
Socialism is when the government does things in the economy, like building roads. (Bernie Sanders)
As a proud libertarian and Ron Paul supporter, it disgusts me when people even say "Communism". How can you be free when the economy isnt free? God bless the Free Market(TM)!
>>674838721
>implying slavery is bad
>>674838167
It isn't as simple as "it isn't profitable"
Giving away food and medicine for 3.5 billion people would be like a massive welfare check, and it would be cashed by America only
Do you understand how badly that will fuck things up? These third world countries need 10.5 billion meals per day, just try and comprehend how we could feasibly transport that to them individually
>>674838330
Yes I realize that but you have to understand that those people don't even help themselves
They see dead people in the street and their oh so sacred rivers and move around them
They rape each other's children and kill for the smallest amount of money
Is this all because of exploitation? Yes, I know that it is but the fact is that food, money, whatever, it won't change human nature
>>674837899
It depends on how serious you are hurt for emergency wait times. If you are bleeding everwhere you are helped first or having a heart attack or something that can kill you in the immediate future you get helped first. I broke my wrist and had to wait for 3hrs before I got a cast.
>>674839088
MUH HUMAN NATURE
>>674836427
good to see ppl here who at least informed about communist theories. and not just those who cannot escape capitalist logic - getting back to it always, no matter how far they try to reach out, how much monetary determination they try to escape.
>>674839312
>Going to the doctor to fix this shit
>literally waste of oxygen
>Could have done that at home
>My mum literally stitched me up at home without going to the doctors
>being this faggot
>>674838721
>Meanwhile, communism hasnt improved the situation of humanity one iota.
The communist movement lost the war against imperialism, it's true. So let's do better next time.
>At least capitalism ended mass slavery
Well, no. There are more literal slaves in the world right now than there has ever been.
And everyone else is a wage slave. :')
I don't give a shit if you have a TV or you can rant at your local diner about how bad Obama is. You sell your labor or you starve. Slavery.
>and brought on enormous technological advancements
That has nothing to do with capitalism.
The USSR evolved technologically much quicker than America.
>>674828125
>Implying I'm not the employer
How does it feel knowing you are too stupid to flourish in your countries business market?
>>674838708
>>674838708
Okay, I'll say this as plain as humanely possible
I do not think communism works based on what I've seen, that is it. That is my argument
Is it shitty and flawed? Maybe, I don't care
There you go, is your autism calmed down now?
>>674839668
>literal more slaves in the world than there has ever been
>Doesn't realize that there's more people alive now than all of 1800-1900 combined
>>674831939
Lol that was my spray on steam for a while
>>674839503
Intelligent, well spoken argument with lots of key points that shut me down
People like you don't help communism seen any smarter
>>674838754
We're talking about entirely preventable deaths of people who are genetically fit but environmentally fucked. Imagine instead of 50% of the population if living in abject poverty or whatever the fuck percentage it is, and another mass of people who simply don't have the time, those 5 billion people or so people have healthy environments to grow up and reach their full potential for thought and innovation. Imagine how much further along humanity would be if we didn't fuck over the vast majority of it just because fat stacks of cash in the Cayman Islands gets the bourgeoisie's dick hard.
>inb4 Africa
>inb4 outdated, discredited 19th century racial sciences
It's like you don't know about colonialism and how the rich propagate racism so the burgers and the europoors don't give a shit when porky exploits the fuck out of people.
>>674839668
Cant even respond to such delusion. >Working equals slavery
Jesus fucking christ, how lazy are you?
>>674837649
its not the people's fault, more likely the problem of racing states.
>>674838899
You triggered me hard, comrade.
>>674838658
Alright this makes sense, but realistically speaking money won't go away unless a total conversation is done, but that will only spark war and chaos by those who don't want. Let's say it goes fine and money is abolished.
Some form of currency will arise soon enough. You can't just have people do things for other things before people start handing out "IOUs"
Also what about the work put in? So let's say 10 people want my "X" smart phone. I make 11 and give it to them and keep one. What do I get for my hard work? I produced 10 phones and it took me time. Or what if people now want my "Y" phone, I'll have to now research it and come up with new ideas. What's the point if I don't get anything?
Now I know you'll say something like they'll trade services, but what if their services are bad and I don't want. Some form of currency has to take place. And what's the difference between giving me 30 wood for a smart phone and $30 for example.
Also sleep is overrated.
>>674839885
Fine.
Karl Marx studied Sociology more than anyone. Probably the greatest Sociologist in history. I'm pretty sure he accounted for "human nature" in his writing.
>>674838042
Yes, Mr. Trump. Now pls go back to your cage until your next performance.
>>674838899
Better dead then red
>>674839668
>>674839668
Id like for you to spell out all those tech advances the soviets gave to the world. And compare that to other side of the iron curtain
>>674839088
What?
You just said they acted that way because of exploitation, and then you sperg out that it's human nature?
And every time they try to help themselves with communist revolution, western imperialism destroys it before they get a chance.
You'd be surprised how many CIA anti-communist operations are still going on.
>>674840025
It's the concept of wage slavery. It's not a literal term. It means, like slaves, you work and someone else who didn't do anything but shit on people takes some of what you produce, or most if you live in a shithole. You can't opt out. You're forced into just to survive.
>>674828125
fuck you commie faggot
>>674838479
>compares socialism to Canada
>>674839312
But if you had capitalism there'd be more doctors and less wait times because more people will have incentive to be a doctor. Sure it could be expensive in certain countries, but that's the governments job to subsidize.
>>674840302
That's more like it, I actually don't have a retort because I haven't studied his writing
Could you sum up what he said about human nature? I know it's like a meme to communists and not a good argument but I want to know why
>>674840463
I said that it began with capitalism, but from years of it has become their nature
For example, their kids learn to act a certain way by watching them so it becomes part of their "nature"
I think i worded it badly. English is not first language
I know full well how much America oppresses them but I believe that even if given resources, they would squander them and act like rich animals, or worse, become capitalist themselves.
Basically, I do not think throwing food and money at them is a solution
>>674840025
Not what I said.
But the working class HAS to sell its labor to the bourgeoisie or it will starve.
Meanwhile, the bourgeoisie extracts all the surplus value.
That is what class struggle and wage slavery is.
>>674828125
Like communism? Move to a communist nation.
By all means. You deserve it.
Not a fag who thinks I'm entitled to certain things others worked hard for.
>>674839668
Jesus fucking Christ.
Are you brainwashed?
>>674841085
/thread
>>674836960
>3.5 billion people in poverty
It's interesting to look where these people live:
- Africe (Place where capitalism built infrastructure but because of pressure of liberals they had to leave everything to uneducated niggers)
- China (yes, it use capitalism in economy but it's state capitalism which is almost equal to slavery)
- even Europe (but it's funny that most of them are in post-soviet republics)
- latin America (mostly socialist countries)
But, damn!, that capitalism is evil!
>>674840872
>I know full well how much America oppresses them but I believe that even if given resources, they would squander them and act like rich animals, or worse, become capitalist themselves.
Yeah yeah, niggers are somehow fundamentally gorillas and cannot ever do anything productive at all except throw poop at eachother.
>Basically, I do not think throwing food and money at them is a solution
Never said it was.
Just leave Africa the fuck alone.
By ending capitalism in the west and helping them end capitalism by surpporting revolutionaries.
>>674840887
So retarded. If no one "sells" their labor, everybody starves. How is that slavery again? Oh right, its called working for a living. Which presumably people must also do under communism (or again, everyone starves)
>>674841342
>latin america
>mostly socialist
triggered
>>674829547
>billions of deaths
>adding on deaths from other systems
Try harder, faggot
>>674841085
So you're not a capitalist.
Why aren't you a communist then?
>>674841449
Selling your labor=/=working
Are you fucking retarded?
>>674840221
Glad I could be of some help. Having some sort of currency wouldn't make it technical communism anymore, or at the very least not orthodox communism. But, I wouldn't be opposed to a more solid trading system as long as workers still owned the means of production and there was no government, if that's what was necessary. Maybe people have to make their goods/services good or else you don't trade with them? But that's a little odd when you can get all goods and services for free. If anything, you get a cool phone, your commune likes you for being such a cool dude, and chicks want to suck your dick.
>>674840872
Human nature changes with the environment. Humans are just as capable of being altruistic as they are of being selfish.
>>674828125
If it's so great then why does it keep losing to kapitalism?
Fuck your social justice "good vs. evil" bullshit. Civilization is about the survival of the strongest. The powerful eat the weak. That's why agriculturalists drove hunter-gatherers to extinction even though hunter-gatherers had happier, healthier lifestyles.
>>674841529
Which countries would you say aren't operating under the capitalist mode of production? :')
Sounds fine to me. I can be in charge of the oil pipelines and you can deliver pizzas. You won't mind 'cause communism. No difference in benefits, amirite?
>>674841393
>>674841393
>revolutionaries would be good for Africa
I don't think so, history has shown that when revolutions end, they often realize the power they have and become dictator like
I mean, they would propel Africa forward resource wise and improve society but at what cost?
If capitalists had never touched Africa they might've dropped their monkey mentalities and traded the tribal shit for a real civilization
Unfortunately that isn't the case, they depend on capitalism now
>>674841840
I love how people point to big buildings and giant skyscrapers as signs of success in capitalism. If anything, it just shows how incredibly inefficient capitalism is. All these towns and cities filled with giant buildings and yet there are millions of homeless people in America alone.
>>674841837
There are people born into nice American communities where they don't have to worry about anything who still are selfish dicks who would stomp on a South American child for a cool million
Money changes people
>>674841529
It's still literal billions under capitalism, but feudalism is the seed the spawned capitalism (and the two are not so dissimilar) and has a long, terrible, well-known history in Europe. I was using it to evoke some good medieval imagery for people to think about and have a more solid understanding of what my point was.
>>674842088
>there are millions of homeless people in America alone
Yes but most of them are in Southern America where are no skyscrapers.
>>674841931
Dude you need to get out more.
Africa is a shithole economically, but the people living there are not ooga booga chimps. There are tribal communities that are pretty ooga, but generally speaking it's not that bad.
>>674841840
Totally agree.
So let's murder the bourgeoisie! :D
>>674841918
>Communism is when everyone gets paid the same!
nice meme
>>674841743
No fucktard
Working for compensation=selling your labor=/=slavery
>>674841762
Yeah, sorry. It just seems sort of... Uncivilized.
What you're saying would work for a couple thousand people maybe. But in this day and age I don't think it's possible. Especially with 7b people around. Even if it did work for a bit, human greed takes over and governments are formed and people take cover underneath them. And then we're back to square capitalism. There's a reason why society naturally evolved into capitalism. And maybe in the future to something better.
Reminder that if you aren't an Individualist Anarchist and an Egoist, you're literally cucking yourself
>>674841619
Capitalism=Get paid depending on your job, education, etc.
Communism=Get paid the same as any one work for the system rather then a boss.
>>674842088
If you want to -- The main difference is that in socialism people line up waiting for bread but in capitalism bread is lined up waiting for people.
>>674842640
If you want to remove class in society, everyone has to have the same amount of money/resources .
>>674842856
In capitalism, bread goes stale while people on the streets starve.
>>674842673
Please try to see this from a class perspective.
>>674842452
Also less freedums n eeglz n guns n freedum
>>674842883
Class is based on your relation to the means of production.
>>674841085
>>674842711
>>674842979
In capitalism, there's at least that bread you can buy if you work.
>>674828125
because i don't want to cock myself to a government
>>674843329
No one starved after the famines ended in 1933.
>>674843400
>he still thinks communism = big government
Cool meme, Stalin. It's the literal opposite.
>>674843244
Yes but the miners wouldn't of had the resources to begin with, if it wasn't for the man who bought the land.
>>674843056
Nice meme, Iosif Vissarionovich
>>674843329
In capitalism, theres no guarantee of even having a job, much less one that pays enough for food, shelter, etc
>>674828125
Cucking yourself to the state. Much better... Retard
>>674843467
Tens of millions starved in gulags all over USSR in years 1922 to 1957 (and to 1972).
>>674843640
By resources, do you mean picks and explosives and such?
Did the mine owner build those resources himself? Unlikely.
>>674828125
Bait thread. He also made a fascist thread but it 404d
>>674843244
>Spends money on land
>Pays people to work in holes
>finds gold on his land
>Provides for miners while they give him what is his
It's basically like the owner of the mine decide to pay other people to do the work for him so he doesn't have to do it. He doesn't have to hire anyone, but he gives them his own money to speed up the process.
How would you like it if you were in your own mine by your self. Then someone over night came over and mined out the remaining gold. What you're saying is that that gold is the thief's because he put the work into stealing it from your land that you were gonna get anyway
>>674843244
They owned the land where the gold comes from and paid other people to do the dirty work. Like how your plumber doesn't own your toilet.
>also not implying that Unions worked as a pressure valve that helped capitalism outlive socialism.
ITT: Everyone supporting communist would unironically receive more goods and services than they currently do under their NEET lifestyle.
>everyone should be equal so I can get more free shit
>>674843695
In socialism there's a guarantee of a job no matter what job it is but there's no guarantee of food, shelter, etc.
I lived in socialist country for 20 years. I saw and heard things you can't even imagine from your cozy suburb.
>>674843244
If the mine owners didn't find the gold, why the fuck is he paying people to dig there.
Also, paying his workers a wage, they enter ibto a contract whereby they work to remove the gold from the earth for their employer. THAT contract is the alchemy.
>>674843924
Inredibly inflated numbers by right wingers.
But sure there were gulags. What else would you do with reactionaries? Send them back out to sabotage?
>>674843652
It was a joke. But seriously, we need to liberate the south Americans from homelessness and the lack of skyscrapers
>>674843941
Neither did the workers, who ever did, done it for a living. If every one only provided for themselves we would of been set back centuries.
>>674844025
You are missing the point.
Nothing entitles someone to private property i.e means of production. In this case, it is the mine.
Who decides who owns the land and the mine? Obviously the owner bought it from someone. But how did that someone get the land? Likely, they got it through force, and that is theft.
The main basis of socialism is that the ownership of the means of production is not justified. Thus, the means of production belongs to everyone.
In your scenario, nobody would own the mine. Whatever you mine, belongs to you. Simple.
>>674844697
So in a communist society there would be no government or head? Since nothing belongs to anybody? Including a country?
>>674844697
But what if I have you the equipment to get the gold, melt it and send it wherever. Would you still own 100% of what you mine? I wouldn't think that's fair.
>>674844422
>not supporting giving yourself more shit
Are you a retard or something?
>>674844697
And what if you mine nothing?
>>674842979
>tfw more efficient company would give away the bread that would not have been sold to those who otherwise could not buy for cheap publicity
Communism would've set the daily bread supply at x loaves when >x may have been needed because oh so mart people are oh so smart
>>674844256
A toilet is personal property, not private property. Ownership of personal property is justified. Ownership of private property is not.
>>674844639
>Inredibly inflated numbers by right wingers.
It's well documented in >>674832005
Every number in sourced from official soviet documents (Lenin's, Stalin's, Trotsky's letters; almanachs from party's congresses; documents from White Sea - Baltic canal; etc.)
>>674845219
Communism can only exist on a global scale. Untill that, there are socialist countries from which communism will grow. A state would exist under socialism, but it would radically different without private property.
>>674845245
Depends on what type of socialist you ask. If you don't work, you would likely be provided with basic essentials and a few luxuries. The means to live a decent life.
>>674845219
Sounds like factions would quickly spring out with a leader to gain as much power as possible in the power vacuum and soon well be back to square one (one large unified government), but with less freedom because that's the nature of humans.
>>674831018
The USSR wasn't that great and it wasn't really communist. After Stalin came to power and started purging all the actual revolutionaries it pretty much descended into state capitalism.
>>674845245
Please don't make me get the Willy Wonka picture out.
>>674845229
Because the argument is predicated on the fact that communism could exist and would be a more efficient, equitable and just society if everyone weren't so greedy and selfish yet the proponents of it, implied by your own admission, are greedy and selfish.
retard.
>>674844697
>Nothing entitles someone to private property
>likely, they got it through force, and that is theft
There is the fundamental disagreement. I believe (and I think most here do) that working entitles us to the property that we've earned from entering into agreements with fellow citizens. We can exchange our labor for property. We can then use that property to create more wealth and property, which can be used to create means of production, more wealth and more property. In the meantime, one can enter into contracts with workers for their labor in exchange for property. Its not evil, its not unfair, its trade. And trade creates wealth. And we all want wealth.
>>674845648
Pls do
>>674845559
Knowing people, I highly doubt the faction in power would step down once they convert the world.
>>674832488
Do you have one of those shitty bow-ties?
>>674845643
Lenin and Trotsky killed many revolutionaries too but Stalin had most of the time.
>>674845885
So we kill/gulag the bourgeoisie who refuse to join our new global communism peacefully. Preferably, socialists would have seized the State and used it to weaken the rich and downsize the military/police so it couldn't be used against the majority which doesn't have access to fucking nukes and tanks and shit. This is why real commies don't want to take your guns.
>>674845817
>We can exchange our labor for property
Another fundamental disagreement. Socialists such as myself believe that its not a true 'exchange' of labor for property, because if you dont exchange your labor, you starve. Its not truly voluntary.
>>674846461
Yeah shit was pretty chaotic at the turn of the century and nobody's perfect but people always bring out Stalin like a gotcha.
>>674845885
It's not about backing down. The state whithers as it becomes more and more useless.
Again, a socialist state is not like the one we have today. As it stands, the state more or less exists to protect private property. This comes in the shape of police, wellfare etc. Keep people happy so they don't revolt.
A socialist state would consist of communal representatives, that once the commune is completely self-sufficient, will no longer need the state.
>>674845821
>>674845245
Fine.
>>674832700
He's already paying a system (family of criminals) more than 90% of what he "earned" just to live, those hands can change and with it, everyone pays less.
>>674846582
This stupid shit again. We already covered this shit. If you dont do anything, you starve. Yes, thats right. Thats how it should be. Theres no free lunch in this world, someones got to provide it.
>>674844697
The mine has limited space and likely better spots than others. Someone would essentially control or own some component of production. It'd all descend into a capitalist or feudal structure naturally if left unchecked.
I think you need a job where you work with people. One that you cared for and not punched in and out every day. Observe how people function and tell me if you still want communism.
>>674828125
I am but only in the sense that the world is a community.
Not a Stalinist or Marxist.
I believe in Socialism and Democracy as well.
I think we should do away with anonymous investment and ownership.
A company should be obviously owned and those who own it should either be named or in some other way disclosed so no more Target or AT&T should be Bob Iger Corp...
Do away with inheritance and private land ownership require 100 years lease of land and that when folks die their company revert to democratic ownership by those employed by them. Your parents can leave you a house but not cash or company.
Yeah this is a pipe dream though it will never actually happen.
>>674846726
Post addendum;
That is when communism is reached.
>>674834680
He's made my day too! Too many people don't realize that theory changes, sure Marxist theory doesn't apply in every aspect anymore, but that's why as communists we need to help contribute to developing theory and help educate the masses instead of arguing against fellow comrades on specific types of communist systems...
>>674846582
Where is "exchange" defined to be voluntary?
>>674846697
Yes. I once had feeling that Lenin was not so bad and Trotsky was cool but that was only because focuse on Stalin. Lenin and Trotsky shall rott in hell for eternity too.
LIBERTY PRIME: ONLINE
SYSTEMS: NOMINAL
WEAPONS: HOT
MISSION: THE DESTRUCTION OF ANY AND ALL COMMUNISTS.
>>674845817
>>674846582
I'm curious how this applies to an artisan, lets say a carpenter owns and is the sole worker at a workshop. Does this gel with workers owning the means of production?
>>674846474
And what of the proletariat who refuse to join because they fear to lose what little they have irregardless of their gains?
>Pic related. Is why the US never has a proper socialist revolution.
>>674846980
You are advocating for theft. Its essentially putting a gun to someone's head and saying "work, or die" and justifying it by saying, thats how it should be.
Of course, someone will have to do the work. Theres plenty of incentive to work in a socialist society. The difference is that you wont find property owners sitting on their ass doing nothing except "owning" the property that the workers produce.
>>674847221
>in hell for eternity
Hell is NOT eternal.
It is a total destruction of self.
God is not cruel.
Read the book of Isiah.
>>674846980
After having written this, it strikes me that many prople do indeed get a free lunch under capitalism. I'm fairly liberal and not banging against welfare or anything like that. Just sayin', free markets create enough surplus that in modern economies, no one starves unless they refuse help.
