>>707236515 So long as it's connected to the mother it is an extension of her. It is her right and only her right to do as she pleases. In other words it should be legal, but there should be consulting done first with the mother to figure out a suitable outcome.
>>707236515 Abortion should be illegal. No sound biologist will ever agree that the life of an individual organism doesn't begin at it's conception. The right to live is a prerequisite for all other rights, so that right should be persevered even at the cost of all others.
Not only is a fetus a human life, but the protection of that life must take precedence over the protection of the woman's control of her own body.
>>707236723 the problem with this is that the word "murder" implies the killing of a human being. killing an ant or another lower lifeform isn't considered "murder" (or you consider it murder, and thereby make the word meaningless).
a very early stage abortion - which accounts for nearly EVERY regular abortion, later stage abortions are almost exclusively performed when the woman's life is in danger - is the killing of a lifeform that's lower than any mammal we know of. Putting down a cat is more ethically questionable than aborting an early-stage fetus, and no one would honestly object to the putting down of a cat if letting it live could potentially ruin the life of a human being for 20 years.
>>707236723 Bait, obviously, but if destroying a collection of cells with the potential to eventually become a human is abortion, then fapping would fit that definition as well. Guess you're a murderer.
>>707238026 Sperm has no potential to become a person, neither does an ovum. A Zygote does. Go on, get a petri dish and dump some pudding in there, let's see if killing the contents will ever amount to murder.
Who the fuck cares about a 4 months old foetus ? It has no identity, no existence, it can't perform any form of communication. It doesn't socially exists, so it doesn't exist to me. Just like I don't give a fuck about some haitian dying in a hurricane, because they don't socially exist to me.
>>707238397 >Just like I don't give a fuck about some haitian dying in a hurricane
In case you're being serious and not trying to be edgy: Normal human beings aren't all playing a game of pretend when they say they care about stuff like this. If you're in your early to mid twenties and you genuinely do not care at all about this, your brain is dysfunctional.
I'm not taking issue with the rest of your argumentation though.
>>707238375 You obviously have no understanding of the word potential. By your definition, a single man never has the potential to become a married man. Your argument is invalid and my balls are prepped for your tongue whenever you are ready.
>>707236515 It should be legal and encouraged. Most people are shit parents, and those who do want children and are actually fit to raise them should adopt. There are tons of hungry impoverished children out there already. We don't need more.
>>707238703 So then we can't jack off and get rid of the sperm, cuz it can grow into a "great human being" when we put it into a vagina?
You're arbitrarily drawing the line at the point where the sperm touches the egg. We can do this an infinite amount of times, nothing of value is lost by throwing out one combination of a sperm and egg cell.
Why aren't you impregnating a woman right now? You have the potential to create a great human being every single day! You're slacking!
>>707239329 Sidenote (not samefagging): Nearly every abortion that isn't done for serious medical reasons is performed in the first trimester or very early in the second one. Post-20th week abortions are very rare if there isn't a legitimate, medical emergency.
>>707236515 I think it should be illegal other than in the usual circumstances (rape, danger to mother, Downy). The "parents" has plenty of opportunity to choose not to get pregnant using the contraceptive pill, condoms, and by not getting pissed enough to do it without. Once conception has taken place baby should be given a chance.
Regardless of what you think about the issue, making them illegal doesn't stop them from happening. All it does is drive it underground. I think it should be legal, safe and obligitory for people who score poorly on IQ tests
Mistakes happen, sure people shouldn't get pregnant that often but accidents do happen and a one night stand shouldn't result in 9 months of carrying the fetus, having to raise it or giving it up for adoption (let's hope they get a nice home) or having to pay child support for 18 years.
>>707240116 But look at its little hands. Yes it's not self aware but that is a little person. A tiny human being incapable of survival without the womb of the selfish bitch that's considering killing it. It doesn't know it exists, but does that mean it's OK to kill it? I don't think so. On the other hand I'm in favour of forced contraception and parental licences.
There are so many god damn stupid arguments in this thread.
The argument for life is; the organism inside the woman is a human. Not a bundle of cells, or a "bacteria", but a human with infinite potential in life. The life of an organism undoubtedly begins at conception, so it's not hard to argue that ending that life would be murder.
I'm not even pro-life myself, there's just a lot of stupidity in this thread.
But abortions wouldn't even be the big social issue it is now if everyone wasn't fucking stupid about having so much irresponsible sex. In cases of rape or incest adoption is always an option, but I'd say that abortion is a legitimate answer.
However ending a life simply because you were too retarded to either; not have so much sex you horny fuck, or take proper precautions, is absolutely retarded. There should be consequences for this stupidity.
Well yes I see no problem in killing a thing that isn't fully functioning, it's not a baby, it's go no clue what's going on, hasn't seen anything, hasn't heard anything or touched anything or made a noise. It's like opening up an egg and finding a half formed chick, is it the same as a living breathing chick that's been alive for a few weeks? No.
Not to mention it's just not worth putting the host through the physical and mental strain just because 'it's could grow up if you let it!'
Agreed though about the forced contraception (they should just make that shit free and have a person go around handing that shit out to everyone)
>>707236515 Absolutely Most abortions are done on single black women They literally genocide themselves, you couldn't ask for a better system Not to mention all the money saved by not having to support nigger kids on welfare and foodstamps Also the saved lives from their deaths, because without a doubt they'd become criminals
>>707241028 >mammals It doesn't fucking matter. A seed is not a tree or a bush, just as a fetus is not the same as some snot-nosed 5 year old throwing a hissy fit about the latest CoD or some shit. As much as you hate to admit or even acknowledge it, you, me, and everyone else in here started off as nothing more than a collection of bacteria living off of our hosts (mothers) long enough to eventually be born as a screaming ball of fat, muscle, blood, and cartilage.
>>707241496 It matters because the biology is different you tard.
Mammals are not birds. Mammals are not fucking trees. Our offspring and ways of conception/birth are fucking obviously different.
You're argument is that babies inside the womb are not humans, so when exactly do you think they become humans? Just when they slip out the womb? If a mother was overdue would her baby inside her now be a human?
Just the concept of abortion makes me sick. You're making a life, and then deciding to destroy it. It's as disgusting to me as putting a minutes old baby in a blender.
We all agree killing a newborn is murder right? What about the day before they're born? Still murder by popular opinion. What about two weeks before that? It could still survive outside of the womb so most would say still murder. The problem is that as medical technology goes forward, the time a fetus could leave the womb and still survive with medical assistance gets earlier and earlier. I think 18 weeks is the current earliest birth where the baby survived. One day we're going to be able to have the fetuses entire life spent in a nutrient bath, and at what point will abortions be acceptable then?
Despite all of that, I still think abortions should be legal. Kids make stupid mistakes and letting those mistakes haunt them for the rest of their lives, or letting children be brought into the world who won't be cared for by their parents is unfair.
So, anti-abortion but pro-choice. Maybe I should just pick a side and stick to it rather than having a more complicated but less committed position,
>>707241790 You're no different from anyone else. Don't kid yourself.
>>707241830 >biology My point still stands. You and I both started off as parasites before we were 'born' and developed consciousness. >when do they become humans? When they're old enough and develop said consciousness, OUTSIDE of the womb. Do you remember what it was like inside the womb? Do you know of any people who were born 'overdue' and remember? No? Alright then.
>>707241901 That's not what you said though. You said we all started out as nothing more than a collection of bacteria, not that our species (and indeed all life forms on the planet) did. To say that our lives are no more important than that of an E.coli bacterium is kinda retarded.
Read the rest of the comment. The problem is that you can't draw the line where it becomes acceptable and there's virtually no difference between killing a child minutes before or minutes after birth apart from a lot of unnecessary trauma for the mother.
>>707242360 By your 'logic,' you don't want women to have any control over their bodies whatsoever. In any case, you're wrong, because I said getting rid of a fetus is fine; I never said anything about babies (which have already been born).
>>707242375 >I can't remember what I had for breakfast on this day when I was 5 >guess I'm not human Not what I'm saying at all; see above. Being born === human baby. Not being born !== human baby.
>>707242460 Are you a biologist? Did you write your dissertation defending that?
>>707242571 Yeah but do you see my point? The whole thing of "it's not a human when it's inside the womb so it isn't murder" contradicts itself unless you support abortions right up until it comes out of the womb.
Because there is no point during the pregnancy when the baby magically becomes human, it was a human right from conception.
>>707242682 >Are you a biologist? Did you write your dissertation defending that? As a matter of fact I am a biologist. I did not write my dissertation defending that. By your definition if I was once a collection of bacteria I was also hydrogen in the core of a star. Both things are true of probably every atom in my body but certainly not me as a person.
>>707242682 thinking women have the ability to be in charge of peoples lives. theres thousands of cases of women aborting children to spite their ex's. why doesnt the father have a say in the life of his child.
Legal, and let me tell you why; >1)Unwanted pregnancy
If a woman got raped and gets pregnant are you saying that some deformed nigger/shitskin baby is supposed to just be able to wreck some normal womans life? What if she gets cold feet on the whole "raising a child" thing? What if her financial stabilty, all of a sudden, is not so stable? There are things you have to take into account before you just yell "It's a human being too"
>2) It's not a human being.
Well biologically it is, but not morally no, and here's why; for something to have a "life" it need to have the correct mental capacity to realize it's alive. Now before you say things along the lines of; >an animal realizes it's alive well its not getting aborted >plants realize theyre alive oh really? did you talk to a cactus about how hillary would fix the country? or did you have a crazy conversation about capitalism destroying the country with a fern? no you didn't, but I digress. A fetus does not have the mental capacity to somehow say "Hey fag dont kill me" and if you can show me an unborn child with that type of concious control over its body, then I will stream my live suicide. >tl;dr pro-life btfo
A lot of people do start out a pregnancy feeling happy and consider abortion more the later into the pregnancy they get. The later into the pregnancy it gets the more real the whole situation feels and the easier it is to picture the consequences of it.
Imagine every big decision you've ever had to make and how much worse they felt as the got closer, well imagine the decision you were making was about whether you were going to be looking after another human for the next 20 years and tell me that wouldn't freak you out.
>>707242682 >>when do they become humans? >When they're old enough and develop said consciousness, OUTSIDE of the womb. Do you remember what it was like inside the womb? Do you know of any people who were born 'overdue' and remember? No? Alright then.
When they're old enough and develop said consciousness. That is when you said by your definition they become human.
So what exactly are they pulling out of the womb, if not a fucking human? Your definition is too arbitrary. There is no point in the womb or outside where a baby magically achieves "human" status, it is a human from conception.
>>707243020 >I conveniently am a biologist Then you should know the difference between a collection of tissue and a fully formed homunculus. In any case, the bacteria you're referring to (fetus) developed the way it did because of external conditions (being inside a woman, feeding off of the host like a symbiote). You could have just as easily become anything else given the proper conditions.
>>707243033 The father does, though he usually folds and leaves regardless.
>>707243111 They are. You and I both were. If not that, then what?
>>707243224 >there is no point in the womb or outside where a baby magically achieves "human" status Nor is that the case for when the parents are fucking. Your outdated (and fallacious) definition of humanity comes from the Bible.
>>707243605 >They are. You and I both were. If not that, then what? Are you fucking serious? What a massive spastic you are. Go read the definition of bacteria. They are prokaryotes (before nucleus) whereas we are eukaryotes (we have nuclei in our cells). Not. Bacteria.
>>707243224 It's just that, it's a human, not a person. It doesn't havve memoris, it doesn't have cares or wants or worries. It has not set goals or striven for anything. I'm not for killing babies at birth, but I first trimester abortion is just a wise decision sometimes. We put so much extra stresses on our population because of genetic abnormalities and deformities, that could be detected and terminated/killed (whatever you want to say) early so the parents can try again..you can replace a blank state baby, you can't replace the mother head of the family like that. To be so pro life is to be ignorant and unaware of the world we live in.
If you're having sex you should be using cont reception and if you're having sex take regular pregnancy tests, they aren't expensive, take it once every 3 weeks, worse case, you've got 3-5 weeks of development so there's no issue with getting rid of the cells that are trying to form into something else but won't get the chance.
I honestly don't think stabbing a baby would be the worse thing, I'd say fucking a baby to death is the worst thing you could ever do - and even then there would be the question of simply having it as a sex slave and future child prostitute rather than a death at an early age.
>>707244070 >Name-calling, eh? Well, I guess if you have no other way to defend your 'position.' No you're right. Apart from, you know, the logic and all. Anyway, killing babies = bad. Saying a fetus is bacteria = imbecilic.
>>707243690 well if a baby were to make it that far in life, it wpuld not need to be killed, as that ship is already gone post-birth now if a baby has deformities or some sort of problem, then it is not uncommon for it to be killed seeing as it would most likely live the rest of its lige on immense pain. what makes you so retardwd that your only rebuttle against a well constructed argument is >well that means we can kill babies
>>707236515 The unfortunately people would still have abortions, but would be more likely to have complications because they would not be done in safe/sanitary medical clinics. Alternatively, we might see a horrific increase in infanticide cases.
>>707244420 you can have the baby and drop it off at the hospitol no questions asked. there is literally no reason not to let it have a chance at life. even if you were raped theres little to no chance the baby will become a rapist.
So are your views consistent with the following? If not then please change to show what you think. Also, should killing somebody else's baby be okay, or should that be considered murder regardless of age?
Abortion at 1 week: Fine. Abortion at 10 weeks: Fine. Abortion at 20 weeks: Fine. Abortion at 40 weeks: Fine. Abortion on day of birth: Fine Abortion a week after birth: Fine. Abortion a month after birth: Fine. Abortion a year after birth: Fine. Abortion after they've learnt to talk: THAT'S MURDER YOU SICK FUCK!
How's it impossible? Unless the person is being molested or raped and thus doesn't have the choice over whether or not to get pregnant why can't she easily use the pill, him the condom and take pregnancy tests on a regular basis? Keep in mind I'm talking about modern western countries not out of the ass Africa where half the bloody people are walking around with aids.
Plus, if these people can't manage these tiny responsibility of taking a pill ever day, pissing on a stick once a month and looking at the results or putting a condom on, they should probably get an abortion cause they shouldn't be having kids.
There aren't enough couples who want to adopt to cover all the kids in the system right now, if you throw even a fraction of the current abortion onto that then you're just adding thousands of children to the world who won't have real homes. Being a ward of the state sucks by the way.
>>707244976 >This is why women shouldn't be allowed to... You realize I'm not a woman, right?
>>707244984 Here, a source for you. Life doesn't begin at conception. If you can prove otherwise, take some time and do so instead of jumping to sophomoric name-calling. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/17/the-fertilized-egg-is-not-a-hu/
This is and will always be a touchy subject. At the end of the day, regardless of what you think is right or wrong, it's up to the mom to decide what she wants to do. So for that I say abortion should be legal.
>>707244872 some of that is right some. because if they find some form of life threatening irregularity in its breathing patterns, growth patterns, etc. etc., then they would need to put it down. how would you like to live with only one working lung >trick question, you wouldnt, fucktard
The problem with that is that most people don't assume you were raped for those nine months, they assume you're going to be a single mother because you slept around, and when you eventually appear without a bump and without a baby people will start talking. Being raped is more humiliating than you can imagine if you haven't been through it, and making women carry that child for most of a year is something they shouldn't have to deal with.
Which sounds more humane? 1) Abort an unwanted fetus. 2) Child, at best, grows up in hostile home environment due to being unwanted, or is thrown into overtaxed wretched child services system with little to no chance of adoption. 3) Child, at worst, is sold on black market to human traffickers, most likely ending up in some pederast's basement dungeon.
So wait in other words, I offer a way to deal with it and you go 'no it wouldn't work, your idea is dumb! no abortions we will not solve the problem if you get pregnant it's your fault and you have to give birth to it no matter what!'
I know most people don't take responsibility for their bodies and I don't think they should have the chance to birth a fucking child if they can't do what I suggested. We have enough little unwanted, unloved, unadopted little kids waiting to be given a chance at a normal life because mommy felt too guilty to have an abortion or wasn't able to cause someone though 'nah it should live, oh it's born, eh fuck it, put it with the rest'
>>707245756 Which sounds more humane? 1) Killing and garbaging a living, breathing, human before they even get a chance at living a good life because of materialistic mothers who abort only because they care about their own self image 2) Child gets adopted and lives a pretty good life
>>707246430 I'm not comparing a person and the ecosystem, I'm comparing the horrible excuse for abortion being a 'woman's right'. Just because something is inside your uterus doesn't mean you have a right to kill it.
>>707246766 Meh, the subject is as nuanced as people's opinions are.
I'm pro-life primarily because I think it would force people to make more responsible decisions, but if it ended up as just a disaster with lots of unwanted kids I'd say go back to abortion.
I also support gay couples rights to adoption, I do believe they couldn't provide the same dynamic of mother/father that most children have, but honestly there are times when gay couples would be the better choice.
>>707246871 It is if people stopped being shitbags and instead of aborting their children, birthed them and took care of them, or if they KNOW they can't look after a child, don't be taking chances at it in the first place.
If Humans, and Americans in particular focused on having a family as a life goal instead of doing stupid shit like smoking pot and sitting on your ass, the adoption system wouldn't be 'bloated'.
So more or less you want to force the woman to give birth to something she doesn't want to have because she needs to learn a lesson. Fucking hell anon I'm happy you won't have any actual stance on if you get a chick pregnant, she can abort that suck with or without your permission, big tip, warn women (if you do get laid) that you'll try and force them to keep the child.
>>707247236 >>>707246871 (You) >It is if people stopped being shitbags and instead of aborting their children, birthed them and took care of them, or if they KNOW they can't look after a child, don't be taking chances at it in the first place. >If Humans, and Americans in particular focused on having a family as a life goal instead of doing stupid shit like smoking pot and sitting on your ass, the adoption system wouldn't be 'bloated'. There ya go.
Personally i don't agree with abortion. I don't care what you think it wont change my view on you all. But, abortion i think is selfish. You mess around in a place where you probably know you cant afford, whether it be money food etc. to have kids. Probably shouldn't having sex in ways that get have a high risk of geting you pregnant (people have goten pregnant from anal and oral, idk how that happened). So you shouldn't kill something that could become a great person because you were stupid. Even if you can afford them, or not. There are generally people who will adopt babies who cant have kids. My neighbors have like 13 adopted kids. And also the lady who was fighting for the right of abortion, had her child in the time that she was fighting for the right, and is now pro-life. If that doesn't tell you anything idk what will. It dosesnt really mater to me though cuz im not getting laid anytime soon
>>707249210 It's interesting. I believe it would still be considered a theory within the definition of the scientific method, but the data (if true from what the video said) does support it.
I find most interesting his assertion that abortion was merely "delaying" births. I seriously doubt that's the case, but even if it did make up the majority of abortions, why were they having unwanted pregnancies anyway if just a few years later they were fine with having kids?
Surely the majority of abortions weren't prospective parents who just weren't in the proper situation at the time, I'm fairly certain the data would show its primarily teenagers and the like, who wouldn't have to have abortions if they made responsible decisions.
But that's just speculation on my part, the data could 100% support this guy.
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