How do Christfags justify the fact that their god created pain and suffering?
What would life be like without low points to accenuate the high ones? I'm a JewFag and I know that. And our entire history is low points. L after L.
>>697853170
Nobody is going to sympathize with you Jew.
Why not just permanently accentuate high points? an all powerful being should be capable of changing how things work.
>>697852855
Adam created pain and suffering
"It's a test" lmao
>>697854119
ayy
> god was merely pretending to not exist
Why do Athiestfags ask stupid questions instead of reading the texts that answer them? Quit wasting your money on Dawkins merchandise to function as a dust collector on your bookshelf. Do some fucking research and stop pompously asking shit that a kid could answer after his 2nd session of "Sunday school".
>>697855176
If it's so easy to answer, what's stopping you? Oh that's right, it's because god being omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent despite the suffering everywhere in the world disproves god's existence.
>>697852855
To help us understand morals and life. Without sadness you can't truly appreciate happiness and ect. Without pain, suffering, and sadness your entire sense of self and reality would be vastly different. Despite this god still made us innocent and peaceful but the forbidden fruit ended our blissful ignorance.
>>697853170
shouldn't you be elsewhere lying about the holocaust and slandering hitler?
>>697855898
Maybe not a good answer, but I always thought it's because in the face of eternity suffering is temporary. We're not here to live in heaven, we're here to have brief, but temporary pain, that allows us to permanently appreciate what the divine actually is. Imagine your first shitty job, like at McDonald's or something. I bet you'd argue that's suffering. But whenever you have an ACTUAL career that you feel good about and feel you get paid decently, that poor experience allows you to appreciate it all the more. So imagine like an infinitessmal small time at McDonald's for literally the most amazing career on the face of the planet. Good trade imo.
>>697852855
>assuming their god created anything
>God
this is a ylyl thread right? or am I confused.
>>697852855
>How do Christfags justify the fact that their god created pain and suffering?
So you know what pleasure and happiness is.
Ask better questions OP.
Also, there is a difference between a logical christfag and a "I don't approve pokemans because they are the devil" christfag.
>>697853871
Do you believe that logic would exist outside of God? God put reason and logic and rules and natural laws in His universe, so ergo for one to actually appreciate high points you'd have to actually experience low points or otherwise you're defying causation. Certainly possible but that sort of removes that value from it.
>>697857062
>Do you believe that logic would exist outside of God?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
>>697855898
God gave man free will and chooses to let us better ourselves instead of stepping in and fixing every little shitty thing that happens. Also, having everything in life be perfect and dandy and sunshine and flowers isn't really a life worth living. To appreciate one end of a spectrum you need the other, that's why there's good and bad in the world. The presence of suffering in this world doesn't disprove jack shit.
>>697856907
Hey I'm arguing for this just as much as anyone but that just begs the question. "Why couldn't we just know that instinctually? Why doesn't God just do the impossible?" literally was one of the, paraphrasing, first arguments in the threads.
>>697852855
Not a christfag but I can answer for you.
One can not exist without the other. No pain means no punishment and no punishment means no motivation.
If everything was happy then life would suck. No new experiences. If we were high all the time it would run out and become nothing without knowing what pain is.
tfw scrolls through these threads to see a bunch of manchilds trying to cover a topic that's already covered. go out and get puss
We secretly love being surrounded by the suffering wails of fellow sheeple, it's the only consistent pleasure we have in this realm, without it we go mad.
Just a ~theory~
god totely love u tho
>>697857322
Because there would be no point in being alive, we would merely exist just to exist if everything in life was perfect.
>>697857442
>puss
Why would I want to get an infection? are you an idiot?
>>697857174
Dude it's an honest question. I.e. if God created the Universe, did logic exist before then? Is God good because he fits the criteria or did He arbitrarily decide what good is? Does causation HAVE to exist or does it exist because God willed it?
>>697857235
It doesn't disprove anything know but it makes it harder to believe. Little girl has leukemia at birth, suffers horribly, dies. Never even really had a chance to sin or "grow" as a person. Would God really allow an innocent child to suffer just to make the parents "think"? Can we really call that "good"?
>>697852855
The Demiurge is a malevolent being who doesn't give a shit about humans. The earth is flawed but he just simply does not give a fuck.
>>697856439
That's assuming that you actually get that career...
And you're not wasting your life thinking that you'll get it because your boss doesn't even exist.
>>697852855
>god is our babysitter
>waa waa
>he should just give us eternal wealth and pleasure and enjoyment
newsflash, life isn't supposed to be a cakewalk
>>697857576
Except that you are attaching logic to a definitionally all powerful being. As the saying goes, "God could make hills without valleys". By assuming God has to follow that logical principal you are asserting that God has to follow rules, which would not make him all-powerful.
>>697857433
Same answer
>>697853170
You are right.
>>697857713
>supposed to be
Life isn't supposed to be anything you faggot, life is life. If your life is complete shit or the best ever, it's still just life.
Fucking religiontards, I swear.
>>697857662
Then tell you what, do you feel happier with no hope, assuming that your life is shitty and meaningless and then you die? Or do you feel happier believing that this is just a step to something bigger? Pascal's wager, in a way, if hoping that there's something else makes you happy, then whether God exists or not you're better off believing in Him. Also not really addressing the thrust of the thread. By definition if God exists then heaven can exist, and if heaven can exist the "career" certainly can.
>>697857235
To appreciate how good a couple small things are you need to have people locked up in basements for decades being raped everyday. and third world countries where every single day is a fight to feed yourself and not get some fucking nightmare disease.
got it.
>>697857605
original sin lol
>>697857974
and a *tip* *tip* to you too, good anon
"I know things you do not know" - God
>>697857322
For one, ignore most of the bible and your typical "jebus is love and happiness".
Think of it this way, 'God' was bored and he created shit for laughs and giggles.
>Why couldn't we just know that instinctually?
You wouldn't, think of it this way, if you had everything you wanted what would be the point of living.
Ok now everyone's dead, and everyone is in paradise, and everyone has what they want, now what?
>Why doesn't God just do the impossible?
Again, don't think God of an almighty magical man, think of him in a way of what you are.
It's hard to explain but basically, if you didn't suffer either by pain or suffering, what would be the point of living be?
>>697857974
Except the point he was making is that saying that life doesn't fit how you would make it if YOU were God is ergo attaching mortal reasoning to an all-knowing being. I.e. being spoiled. He's addressing OP's point and you're making a completely separate argument.
>>697852855
For your reference.
>>697857062
>>697857235
>without black you wouldn't know white
no, you wouldn't be able to recognise the bad times, but that doesn't mean you wouldnt be experiencing the good times,
And if we really need it, why don't we just get very occasional doses of bad times, like, once a year, and then have super good times for the rest of the time?
What do you thunk heaven is like by the way?
the exact same as Earth?
because that's what a lot of you seem to imply,
Why does a loving God make us all - knowing some of us will go to hell/suffer and not be resurrected - yes he "gave us free will" but he knew EXACTLY what we were going to do with it - he knows EVERYTHING about the universe, nothing is unpredictable.
>>697858148
Okay, reiterate, you assume that to appreciate happiness you must have suffering. That is ergo a rule.
God is above rules, he could do the impossible. Including having true valuable happiness without any suffering. He could make 1 + 1 = 3, he could do that as well.
Ergo why doesn't he?
>>697858094
>he doesn't delude himself with religion he must wear a fedora and go on reddit
yeah, okay bud. whatever helps you sleep at night.
>>697857605
Everyone suffers, you could make the argument that dying young could prevent a shit load of future suffering and at that point dying of leukemia as a child is the better option. Or the suffering of the child leads to suffering of the parents leads to them helping to alleviate the suffering of other people in the future, which is a greater good.
>>697858221
Well see that goes into MY belief that everyone gets resurrected. As having someone receive the equivalent of a life sentence, except for eternity, for ANY crime, is cruel beyond imagining. So if we believe that all suffering that we all experience leads to us appreciating heaven more, then no suffering is meaningless.
"But why doesn't God just do the impossible and make us appreciate heaven in a true fashion without needing to suffer?" Because I guess God would know it wouldn't ACTUALLY be real?
>>697858094
>*thumps* love my word of god, so glad the omniscient decided to deliver The One True Word in such a convenient way, only readable in Monkeyese or by a local pastor!
>>697858331
Humanity has chosen suffering and death through sin. God has already redeemed us from those through Christ. It's really very simple.
>>697858599
Sure and I agree, but the argument really comes down to, "Why can't God just have us appreciate happiness, truly, without suffering?" to which you say because we couldn't really appreciate it, to which the argument is "God isn't bound by rules, so ergo He could and chooses not to. He literally has us suffer for no actual reason because He can do ANYTHING so any purpose suffering serves He could grant at any time.
>>697858331
He's not above he rules, and if he is, he simply doesn't give a fuck.
Don't know if you're an atheist, and simply I wont turn you into a believer but, 'God' gives you this thing called 'Free Will'.
Now do whatever you like, God can't stop you, otherwise you'd be a believer.
Go ahead, shit on that crying baby, go rape that little girl, and stab her mom in front of her.
God wont stop you, cause if he does, then you wouldn't be doing that at all.
Now I don't want to influence 'God' in to your life, you have your reason to believe in whatever you want. You wont go to 'hell' simply because you don't believe in him.
Despite what people say.
>>697858742
Okay except that God decided to give us that choice. Reiterate, God could make it that we never had to suffer and literally any reason you give, God could get around that because He is above logic and reason and causality. He literally is bound by no rules, INCLUDING fairness. He decides to let us suffer anyways. Why? Because we "made our choice"? And it's not like we suddenly stop suffering as soon as we embrace Christ. So what, God forgives Christians but keeps letting them suffer? If we suffer because we "chose sin" and we are redeemed through Christ, then why do we continue to suffer? Why to appreciate life more! See: "But God chose to make that necessary"
If god created us then who created god?
>check and mate, religiousfags
>>697852855
This is a retarded question. It's like asking, "How do muslims justify all the bacon they eat?" It's a false assumption.
tl;dr he didn't. Pain and suffering is what happens when we do life wrong. It's the natural consequence. "How can you love your kids? I thought you said you wanted their rooms to be clean, but their rooms are filthy, AND you didn't clean them for 'em! What kind of dad are you?"
>>697859089
You imply all suffering is due to free will. That doesn't fly. Natural disasters and diseases happen all the time. God could easily intervene and prevent them and we'd never know, thus not affecting free will. He allows it to happen anyways, thus He is responsible for it. If he allows suffering that isn't our fault to happen, He had a purpose. Any purpose He had He could get around because he's all powerful. If He is not above the rules, he's not all powerful. Ergo he's not the Christian God.
>>697857996
>>697858869
explained here >>697859089
but I'm gonna make it short.
If God intervened in every little evil thing in this world, there wouldn't be evil at all, everyone would be scared to even look at porn, and that wouldn't be living at all.
Either everything that exists was created by some all-powerful being, or everything just came into existence from nothing for no reason in particular. Either scenario doesn't really make sense so why are there people who think they are so above all others as to believe definitively one way or the other?
If God is so powerful can he create an object he cannot lift? If he can't create and object that immense than he isn't all powerful, and If he can't lift it, he is also not all powerful
>checkmizzle Christizzlefags
>>697859318
So to clarify, volcanoes and tsunamis are caused by free will. Please explain.
>>697859349
>Ergo he's not the Christian God.
Back then when jebus was about, why didn't God intervene to stop his suffering?
Told you, he's either not all powerful, or simply doesn't give a fuck.
>>697859104
Because we keep sinning
>>697854439
>>697854910
>>697855068
Stay on 8 ch you Travis-fucker
Do good people that dont believe in God go to Hell for eternity? Do bad people that repent go to Heaven?
>>697859516
You assume that an omnipotent being would be bound by logic. An omnipotent being CREATED logic. He's a loose cop that plays by his own rules. At the end of the day saying "logical paradoxes exist", while very convincing, kind of assumes that an all-powerful God can be bound by our rules, which is kind of a false assumption.
>>697859318
That's why he gives babies birth defects and genetic disease? They probably did something wrong, came to the wrong 'hood maybe
>>697853958
Actually, Eve sinned first. Timothy 2:14
>>697859710
Kek
>>697853170
nigger
I'd rather not experience pain/suffering and happiness. Neither of them. Much better option. Live like Wolves.
>>697859776
All people are "bad people". God has indicated that salvation comes through belief and acceptance of Christ, but ultimately, He will judge as He wills.
>>697859610
Okay then if he intentionally allows suffering needlessly because he "doesn't give a fuck", or he's not all-powerful, then once again he isn't the Christian God. See "Christfags" in Op's post.
>>697859618
Except plenty of bad shit happens completely outside of free will, see: natural disasters. If natural disasters are caused by sinning then that's a little bit arbitrary and sure makes God seem vengeful rather than "passively allowing us to accept our consequences".
>>697859776
I don't believe so no. That'd be a very cruel God to give an eternity sentence for anything someone could do, no matter how sorry they are.
>>697859846
Agreed. With the point you are actually making rather ;P
>>697859349
Suffering through natural disasters forces people to choose whether or not to do good by helping the ones who are affected
What the fuck is happening in this thread? Is this the new Spiderman derail?
>>697852855
And he's incompetent. The fucking Garden of Eden - he has one job. Keep track of two people, a tree, and a fucking snake. Omnipotent. Omnipresent. Omnifuck-up if you ask me.
>>697852855
Karma, bad things happen to bad people because in their past lives they were shit people
>>697860210
Okay, so if lightning hits a california forest during a drought. And a bird's nest catches on fire and the baby birds burn to death, crying out in pain. And no human is around to see it. How does that affect free will?
And also "I punch you in the face to see if you behave properly" isn't very "Godly" imho.
>>697860329
>new
Travis is 3 years old now.
>>697852855
They say humans betrayed God so now God betrayed them with pain and suffering. Shouldn't have been an asshole.
>>697860348
You assume He intended to stop this from happening. If we assume He was allowing them to make an actual choice it was more Adam and Eve for being stupid enough to think frigging God, omnipresent fucker that He is, wasn't watching.
>>697860155
If you refer christian god as a merciful loving chill old man, then yeah. There isn't a christian god.
I've seen enough in this site to know that.
>>697860155
It's rather the fact that we live our lives in a world with suffering, natural disasters, etc. that is the byproduct of sin, rather than the natural disasters themselves. God has already offered redemption from this world after we complete our natural lives.
>>697860483
what free will?
What happens to isolated peoples that never hear of Christianity? Where do they go?
>>697859149
If God doesn't exist then why does anything exist?
Matter either was created by God, or just has always and eternally existed. If matter has just always and eternally existed, then why couldn't that be the case with God?
>>697860596
God loves to put all those tricks, tests, and trials in there so you can fuck up and he can send you to Hell.
>>697860819
Purgatory
>>697860606
Fair enough but that's literally the question OP proposes.
>>697860712
Okay, reiterate, God can stop natural disasters without us knowing and impacting free will. He doesn't. Ergo He intended the natural disaster to happen. Ergo he inflicted suffering. Ergo this wasn't a "natural consequence" this was an intentional action on His part. If God is intentionally inflicting suffering to punish us for our decisions, including making innocent and sinless children and babies suffer FROM the natural disasters/disease, then that doesn't seem very "all good" to me.
>>697860720
The argument the dude was making is that natural disasters happen because it gives humanity an opportunity to be charitable, i.e. free will. The unobserved suffering of animals does not affect free will, so the argument fails.
>>697860823
Nice troll. God will just be filler until science finds the answers.
>>697860823
Why would it be the case with god? If you state that god exists, you have the burden of proving it.
>>697860926
If that was the case He wouldn't be "all-good", ergo not the Christian God.
>>697860819
Good question! I think they get the "hey you did some stuff that you know was bad in your life, ergo you need forgiveness. If you ask Jesus for forgiveness, who died for you, then you can be clean and be back with your loved ones and family". And give them the montage of stuff. Don't really believe that people go to Hell, that's a catholic thing.
>>697860712
Very comforting thoughts, one of main appealing aspect of a faith.
Change the Bible to a science fiction novel, change all the names and have God/Jesus do everything with technology instead of magic. Read that book and tell me that the main character doesn't exhibit psychopathic behavior.
I don't believe in Jesus, but if there was a biblical God then it created EVERYTHING. Asking why pain is one of those things is like asking why cold is one of those things, or fucking lichens or comic books.
Read the Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas. It is short and provides an answer to your question.
Again I'm not a Christian but this is a question that was settled about a thousand years ago, just inside the Christian philosophical tradition.
What happens if I have a family member go to Hell while I end up in Heaven? To me, to have someone I love suffering in Hell while I'm up in Heaven... is a scary thought and doesnt sound all that great.
>>697860483
animals suffering isn't the same as humans suffering, God doesn't give a shit if baby birds get hit by lightning in a forest. If your scenario has a single person instead of baby birds, then I can only answer that with a hypothetical scenario as well. The suffering and death of that lone individual may have prevented worse future suffering for himself and others.
>>697861106
If the universe had any portion of it that couldn't at least for the most part exist without the presence of God then God would be proven which would remove any aspect of faith, or really, free will. If you knew you had an omnipresent, omniscient, all powerful being that created the universe, you probably wouldn't behave the same way. It's like saying a person acts how they actually are when they have a gun against their head.
>>697861130
See above.
>>697861281
"God intentionally allows, and as such causes, natural disasters because we are shit". Very comforting.
>>697861306
"Change several key parts of a story and alter the entire context and the characters appear different" And?
I mean, Buddhism takes a very "go with the flow, the universe is how it is and well, it's a fuck ton of suffering sorry", so I would assume that God allowing suffering is kind of the same thing? Like, he doesn't wish to interfere in any of our experiences, even the most detrimental ones, just because he wants us to navigate the world as is, and despite is being a bit broken, expects us to try to make it better and learn from it if we can.
>>697859349
A bit of devils advocate I think...
You say God could easily intervene but lets look at the universe that is. It's fucking massive. Absolutely fucking huge. One tiny speck, smaller than a grain of sand on all the beaches of Earth by comparison, is what our planet is. God made all that. It's insignificant even to God who loves everything he's made because he's a narcissist. I guess it's like keeping a colony of mold as a pet. Good mold gets rewards when it gives up its spores, bad mold gets burned. Sure, God loves his mold, but it's still just tiny little specks of basically nothing. Given that the mold is destined to die anyway is there much point in stopping bad shit like earthquakes? We are all born to die after all. Why not die in an earthquake and have your suffering be a beacon of choice for the mold that survived? Seems like a mechanism that could work quite well to sort the good from the bad.
The reward comes from what you do while you're alive. Alive like a mold spore in an asscrack the size of the universe.
>>697861273
So there are just parts of the Bible that you believe?
>>697861478
Humans are animals.
>>697857779
I'm attaching logic to what I can understand. If you can't attach some logic to this conversation there's literally no reason to have the conversation.
>>697860996
It's not even that bad of a place. Plenty of good quality company.
>>697861341
See several of my responses. You assume God is bound by physical laws, which makes him not omniscient.
>>697861456
Don't believe in Hell personally because yes, how could that REALLY be heaven for you?
>>697861478
So God intentionally causes pain to baby birds for the lulz. "All good".
>>697861306
Every behavior, trait, descriptor, or form imaginable would be an after-the-fact reflection OF a prime cause god. God could not be psychopathic; psychopathology would be a lesser emanation of God.
>>697861273
>mfw he thinks God can be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent
Protip: you can only pick two
>>697857996
People are affected differently by different things. Those things you pulled out of your ass aren't going to affect you in any profound way because you have never had to deal with anything worse than people calling you mean names in school.
>>697861456
You get separated, i would assume
>>697861656
>"Change several key parts of a story and alter the entire context and the characters appear different" And?
No, we're not changing the parts where he says that you have to devote your life to him, that he has to come before anything or anyone else, and that all must worship him or face his wrath. Those are the psychopathic parts, you see?
>>697853170
>>697855972
>>697856907
>>697857433
>>697859318
>>697860588
You all haven't thought this through. Omnipotence means the SOURCE of all things, Alpha and Omega; suffering and happiness.
Assumption: God created suffering so we could appreciate happiness.
Analogy: I beat my kids so they appreciate when I give them ice cream and tell them I love them.
Flaw: God is the creator and controller of all things, good and bad. He is omnibenevolent and omnimalevolent. Evil exists because he created and allows it. When considering an omnipotent being, the distinction between action and omission of action is erased.
Ergo: God is not fundamentally good. When worshiping the notion of God, you are also worshiping evil (even if you only worship the "good" aspects of God).
>>697861656
Not my quote. Define free will
>>697861678
Even if you fry ants with a magnifying glass, that doesn't change the fact that isn't nice. No matter how insignificant we are, God is everywhere at once, at least the Christian one. Dispassionately allowing us to suffer because he doesn't care prevents "all good".
>>697861696
See: Hell is a Catholic thing. And my belief in God isn't necessarily reliant on a book retranslated several times over. Plus, "God allows people to suffer eternally" doesn't seem "good" to me, so that part? No.
>>697861805
True.
>>697861831
If you posit that God is all-powerful, then by the nature of being all-powerful he's not bound by our laws, including causality. Pretty sure that's a reasonable conclusion to draw.
>>697861867
...wat
>>697862143
Doesnt sound like Heaven to me then.
>>697858817
Maybe God is bound by some rules, no one can know for sure. Just because some old dead guys wrote that he isn't in a book 2000 years ago doesn't make it true.
>>697861106
Nice way of dodging the answer because you can't admit you don't know jack shit about anything.
>>697862293
Seems like cherry picking. Is the bible a word of god or not?
They view it as a test. You're made stronger for having gone through suffering, making you worthy to enter heaven
>>697852855
by sucking cock
>>697862015
Did I say that? I'm just saying we're arguing OP's point of a christian God. Also, not really no. If God is the first two he literally defines what the third one means, or otherwise he'd be bound by morality, i.e. a rule. Omniscience means no rules. It's bullshit, but it's accurate.
>>697862160
Sure, reiterate, if you change the story as well as the context, character actions seem different. Change Harry Potter to put "magic" in quotation marks all the time and the characters seem like they're insane or autistic.
>>697862193
Fact: If God is omniscient He makes the rules, He is not bound by it.
Ergo: God could say He was good and he'd be it by definition because He literally invented what good means, He's kind of the authority on it.
>>697862251
Good question! My friend defined it as "Imagine God had an equation that He could find out every event and every moment at every time. Much like you may not be constantly thinking what 110 times 20 is, you can still figure it out pretty fast and ergo be said to 'know' the answer. Thus omniscience. Free will is Him willingly choosing to not use the formula in those key moments." Maybe not the best answer but I liked it.
See: Hell is a Catholic thing. And my belief in God isn't necessarily reliant on a book retranslated several times over. Plus, "God allows people to suffer eternally" doesn't seem "good" to me, so that part? No.
No, you choose to disregard all of the things in the Bible that you realize is ridiculous, cruel, and insane and keep the parts you like. Either it's the word of god or it isn't, you can't have both.
>>697861064
God offered humanity a perfect existence, but we rejected it through sin and continue to reject it through sin. It is because God is "all good" that He cannot coexist with sin. All of humanity is born into the sin of humanity's creation. Thankfully, God has redeemed us from our sin through Christ. Once we pass into Heaven, we will be able to live without sin, but until then, we suffer in our world of son and death.
>>697862298
Heaven is for you, hell for whowver you mean. Heaven isnt what You want it to be. Its like if you and your best friend are both applying for you dream job, then when he fails the tests and you suddenly dont like the job. Its his problem, nobody elses
>>697862490
If He's bound by anything he isn't all-powerful, thus not the Christian God.
>>697862674
It is. And I wouldn't say so no, I think the word of God would be very different. I think it may be divinely inspired, but to be honest, I more cherry pick the stuff I like. "Be good to people, forgive others, love one another, make the world a better place" all that hippie bullshit XD
>>697855176
>Bible doesn't answer this question
>This question is used in legitimate arguments against religion
Why do Christians just make things up to suit their needs?
Based on what we know of the world, the most I could accept is a watchmaker God. I.e. an entity which created existence, and may or may not observe us, but does not directly intervene or interact with existence.
>>697862957
i didnt reject anything because Nobody fucking offered me anything you autistic piece of shit
>>697862957
Dodging the question.
Tsunami hits hospital. Babies start drowning, die in agony. Babies are without sin. "But the parents are sad". So God would send a tsunami to force innocent humans to suffer to teach other humans a lesson. Which reiterate, God could literally have us experience the benefits of suffering without the suffering because omnipotent.
Also, Christians still suffer from diseases and natural disasters. If those things are punishment for sin, and we are forgiven, why are we still punished?
By your logic the smartest thing to do is accept Christ and commit suicide.
>>697862957
Isn't it fair to say god, in your view, created us with the knowledge that we would fail to live up to the standards set and thus is more responsible for our failures than we are? Why or why not?
>>697862882
I think Harris makes a pretty clear picture of what free will can be.
>>697863296
>>697859877
True but she was deceived. Adam knew it was wrong but did it anyway
>>697852855
other religions have the same god dumb ass. also you cant have joy without pain you ignorant twat
>>697861130
That doesn't answer any of the questions I presented. There are plenty of miracles that prove God's existence, but people can choose not to believe in their validity like I'm sure you would. God goes beyond the limitations of the scientific method, be open to the possibility that God is out there and you'll find proof at some point in your life.
>>697863500
Forgive my ignorance, would you mind paraphrasing Harris for me? I would appreciate it.
>>697852855
>How do Christfags justify the fact that their god created pain and suffering?
How is he going to teach insufferable faggots like OP a lesson without pain and suffering?
>>697863639
If God's existence could be definitively proven then free will would not really exist, much less faith. If you mean "evidence" then sure.
>>697863112
That wouldn't be a problem, but you're in favour of supporting an idea that a lot of people are suffering because of. "Hippie bullshit" is better in this aspect.
>>697863664
No, kill yorself
>>697863614
Having etenal joy and bliss. Without pain or suffering.
Please under 18 gtfo
>>697863693
Easily. God is omnipotent and could do such a thing without any suffering because if He NEEDED suffering he'd be bound by rules, thus not omnipotent, thus not a Christian God.
>>697861805
So let's just fuck and kill everything right? We're the same as cats and dogs so why the fuck does anything matter right?
>>697862882
>Fact: If God is omniscient He makes the rules, He is not bound by it.
He also invented what "bad" means. He the knows that he has placed us in a universe that is heavily weighted towards what he has defined as either cold and uncaring, or worse, cruel and evil. To boot, this universe also makes perfect (in fact, MORE) sense if he wasn't even involved.
If you say "hurr but God is omnipotent and who are you to question" one more time, This is gonna be over.
>>697863639
Do you believe that god directly creates all of us and has "the very hairs on your head numbered"?
>>697863639
Would you please provide examples of these miracles?
>>697863840
Yes, because they want to limit the divine by saying that we'd somehow be able to fully interpret it via our limited knowledge and words. To say that the creator of the universe could have their will properly and unequivocally written down, and it'd be IMMUNE from error or corruption (thus removing free will) is ridiculous from the get go. Hippie belief: All people go to heaven, be nice to everyone, don't be a dick, love is better than hate, etc.
>>697863860
: / I'm sorry if I offended you.
>>697863911
See like...50 of my points. TL;DR God isn't bound by rules.
>>697864001
Yes, why does it matter? Can you think of something to live for? There is no need for a god to have morality.
>>697861863
Why is it that just because he doesn't prevent something from happening it means he's doing it intentionally? "Hey you didn't donate all your organs to sick people so it's your fault they're all dead" see how retarded that sounds?
>>697863055
Fuck that then. Id rather be in Hell with my loved ones than in Heaven without them.
>>697859877
God allowed it.
>>697864307
Its true tho
>>697863664
One basically has none. Experiments show that we make a choice before we are aware of making one. Harris points out exceptions, but I don't recall. It's in one of his Islam talks I think.
>>697857605
If logic exists before God, than goodness would be a criteria. If goodness were a criteria and God were omniibenevolent, like the Bible implies he is, than one would assume that God would always do what is most good. So why is there so much evil in the world?
If God sets the standard for what goodness is, what's the point? If goodness is just "whatever God does" than what is the point of morality anymore?
>>697864011
I'm not saying it's a GOOD example, I'm saying that trying to say "HEY you aren't playing by the RULES you aren't GOOD" to the person that literally made the game billions of years before you were a speck in your father's eye kind of seems ridiculous. I mean heck, here's some bullshit but somehow impenetrable excuse "All suffering causes us to enjoy heaven more. All people go to heaven. Ergo all suffering isn't pointless and is in fact good. Any evil act we commit is because of free will. Herp de derp"
See: Most of the arguments in this thread.
>>697864022
If God is omniscient and created the universe then by definition he created it at least knowing that we'd exist and literally knowing hairs on head. If He didn't do it intentionally, then not really all-knowing.
>>697864027
Agreed.
>>697863439
It would certainly be the most self-serving thing to do, but would totally ignore Christ's message. Because we are saved, we are compelled to alleviate suffering for others in this life. We have love from God to pour out and share with others.
>>697852855
who gives a shit
just masturbate and enjoy life
>>697863112
Or not everything that Christians believe is 100% accurate because the book of our beliefs was written by men who are flawed.
>>697864351
Exactly, you woudnt be in heaven if your loved ones are in hell. Heaven is overrated, hells a hella of a place, all the cool shits there
>>697863639
This puts out the scientific method out of the loop, the only method that allowed us to get so far: modern medicine, robotics, computer sciences. I did not follow the discussion from beginning.
>>697864692
>>If God is omniscient and created the universe then by definition he created it at least knowing that we'd exist and literally knowing hairs on head. If He didn't do it intentionally, then not really all-knowing.
No, I'm talking about each individual person. Did he intentionally create you and me?
>>697863794
There's a lot more to faith than believing God is real. And how does proving God exists make free will not exist?
>>697864307
Okay. If I see a train coming and you are walking on the tracks, and I can stop it, but I don't, am I ergo allowing the train to hit you? Yes. Now imagine you are tied to the tracks and literally you have no way of moving out of the way of the train. ALSO assume the train is a tsunami. If I "allowed" the tsunami to happen, keeping in mind I could have stopped it from even starting, then yes, I get blamed.
>>697864351
Agreed.
>>697864360
"But free will" whatever that means.
>>697864578
"B-b-but the sooouuuul", *shrug*
>>697864591
Correct! Thus the issue. If God is bound by morality, he isn't all-powerful. If He is not bound by morality and instead makes it, then Him being good is arbitrary. Yes, technically, He is still "all good" but it hardly seems fair does it?
"Suffering happens because it makes you appreciate heaven more", but why make suffering necessary if you make the rules all-powerful God? See: My argument through most of the thread.
>>697864247
Your position on genitalia mutilation? Usually performed in the name of god.
>>697864692
So God says "this is good and this is bad. I'm going to teach you what's right by completely fucking reversing everything I've told you and being unknowable, unlovable and alien. Oh, and I'm not even necessary to explain all observed phenomena, and I'm only good for justifying internal ethics systems. "
gg God.
>>697865277
yeah, the wrong god, lol
unless you mean circumcision, which is actually a benefit rather than mutilation (sorry uncut bros)
>>697864022
I believe that God at the very least set everything in motion that we know, evolution and all that stuff that eventually led to my existence and everything after it.
>>697852855
Enlighten yourself, Brother Anon, for pain and suffering are part of the deal.
>You have to know the bad to know the good
>the mediocre to know the extraordinary.
>How else can you hope to understand when something good comes.
>But you cant just hope for it
>it's not enough to just want it
>You have to grind and shovel shit in one way or another
>anywhere you go
>so
>The shitbags who cry and give up
>get left behind
>everyone else just keeps going until
>you make it
>>697852855
"god works in mysterious ways"
AKA: the bullshit fallacy
>People using the "You can't have one without the other" argument
>About god
>an immortal, all powerful being
>That somehow can't even manage to not fuck up his own creations
The biblical reason why "suffering" exists is because Adam and Eve fucked up and ate an apple, which doomed everyone because, fuck logic.
>>697864712
Except we still suffer. If tsunamis are punishment for sin, why do forgiven people still get punished.
>>697864793
I'd say the likelihood that anyone is 100% correct on the nature of God is literally zero. So, yes XD
>>697865123
Yeah. He could have made the sperm and egg different and come up with a completely different person. He didn't, so you and I were intentional.
>>697865131
If you had a gun against your head and someone said "If you do not give five dollars to charity I will blow your brains out", do you think that is REALLY an honest assessment of the decision you'd actually make WITHOUT a gun against your head?
>>697865276
It's inconclusive, but paints the current accurate picture of our understanding.
>>697865541
Does god have flaws?
>>697864569
>why is that thing that way?
>because it is.
Wanna try that answer again buddy?
>>697865131
>And how does proving God exists make free will not exist?
Because if god is real, then god has determined everything. Meaning, that when made the universe he knew all the outcomes of everything that would happen, always. I.E. it's been predetermined, meaning you cannot make a choice of your own free will. Since you know, it's already been determined to happen that way.
>>697865649
>doomed everyone
>cuz
>fuck logic
Brother Anon, you have summarized humankind quite well.
>>697865277
Saying that any physical alteration without consent is required according to God seems silly to me.
>>697865315
Seems pretty bullshit yeah? I mean to me I believe that animals do not suffer when they aren't being observed because that'd be needless suffering and all other suffering that is observed improves faith and appreciation of heaven and is by definition temporary. Why did God make it necessary to suffer and not just break the rules? Because -He'd- know it wasn't actually genuine. I guess. But at that rate "Why make us suffer just because you don't like doing the easy way", seems pretty selfish, but on the other hand, suffering is VERY temporary in the face of eternity.
>>697865541
It also counts as circumcision.
Muslims would disagree with you on that one.
>>697865276
It's hard to have an argument with someone when they're basic understanding of causality of wrong.
>>697865998
No, there's plenty of logic as to why humans fuck each other. The same reason animals eat each other, or kill off their own pack members. For the betterment of one's own self. Because that's how the world works.
Unless you're referring to something else.
>>697865663
Sounds good then.
>>697865800
Depends on if you mean the "Christian" God, in which case, no. Unless he decided to have them, in which case, are those really flaws?
>>697865945
This. What if God has an equation to know everything and just chooses not to use it for free will actions? He still knows everything like we can know multiplication, but He chooses to be surprised.
From my understanding, God is not all puppies and sunshine unbeliever.
>>697863582
Your point?
>>697866004
That's good. It's usually forced and has most probably the devious purpose of reducing pleasure from intercourse. Health benefits are obsolete in this day and age.
>>697866170
Okay. Dude. You have an incurable disease. I have the cure. I do not give it to you. You die. Is it my fault you died? TECHNICALLY no. But let's say I invented the disease, and intentionally made sure the disease was around you, like put it in your food. TECHNICALLY -you- ate the food and got the disease. Still not my fault yes? Like you are excusing God's culpability in the most technical terms imaginable. If it wouldn't fly in court, it doesn't fly here.
>>697866234
Correct.
>>697866295
So god has no flaws. Is man created in image of god? Is man created by god?
>>697866455
Well even if it was objectively the most amazing decision ever, it's still not OUR decision imho. You can always get circumcised later if you wanted.
>>697866621
I see where you are going with this but this really goes down into the free will argument. To which this has been addressed many time in this thread.
>>697865657
>If you had a gun against your head and someone said "If you do not give five dollars to charity I will blow your brains out", do you think that is REALLY an honest assessment of the decision you'd actually make WITHOUT a gun against your head?
That person still has the ability to make a decision, just because one choice is much easier to make doesn't mean making the opposite choice isn't possible.
>>697865657
Suffering is not "punishment", but rather what we are left with by rejecting God's perfect existence through sin. Suffering is better considered as coming from humanity rather than from God. We are forgiven and yet continue to sin, resulting in an imperfect existence in this life. Death is also what we are left with, and God has provided salvation.
>>697866234
But, Brother Anon, from the outside we can see the flaw in their way of thinking.
Their mind has been corrupted by the serpent into taking what it can saying
>fuck
>everything
>BUT
>me
>Dooms everyone
This world has been seized by those who follow this way of thinking and is doomed. Welcome to the End, Brother Anon!
>>697866295
>What if God has an equation to know everything and just chooses not to use it for free will actions?
It would still be predetermined, as the equation would exist. a+b=c, even if I delete that equation it doesn't change the outcome.
This is a different type of "god" than standard religions believe. It's more of a "Mathematical, logical creator" and less of an "emotional, all powerful watcher" as most religions would have you believe.
>>697866746
That would be the way to go, also with belonging to a religion or any following for that matter. Freedom from harm of children should have priority of freedom of religion.
>>697852855
What is robot leg loli from?
>>697865945
Maybe God knows all possible futures, but whatever future actually does happen depends solely on the actions of people? Just because you know the future doesn't mean the future can't be changed.
>>697866861
Not sure. A flawless god created a flawed creature in his flawless image. Point is, why does it have to do with reduction of sexual drive and pleasure? One could almost think some people wanted to control a whole society more easily.
>>697866946
There is no flaw in their thinking, that is how they were programmed TO think. One must prioritize one's self to survive efficiently. (one's self can also refer to a "group" of survivors)
>>697866891
Okay, if you consider "do what I say or suffer for eternity" to be equivalent to NOT knowing that and equivalent to free will, then good for you man. I'd say if someone is in a hostage situation and is being forced to say, withdraw money from an ATM, that I blame the robber and not the person.
>>697867047
Then you are just saying that everything is deterministic by default. To which, sure, but literally your argument is "time exists". To which, yes, it probably does, and don't get me wrong, it's a damn good argument. My retort is *shrug* I just prefer to illogically believe my actions have meaning and that I'm not retarded for raping a whole bunch of people every day to increase my chance of spreading my genes.
>>697867064
See: Mandatory vaccines imho. Weirdo that I am.
>>697863693
/thread
>>697852855
who is this memein' demon?
>>697853871
if it's all "high" points, it's a straight line, and there are no high points
>>697867392
God should, as an omnipotent being, know which "future" would occur. There is no such thing as free will.
>>697867683
You would be held accountable for harming your children in case of health damage or fatality. Would you accept that?
>>697867393
Think you replied to the wrong thing. Maybe you meant the circumcision thing?
>>697867869
Sure but that's depressing yo. And can we really actually punish anyone if no one can actually decide anything and are just following their programming? Seems illogical.
>>697867927
Sure, that works, I assume you mean if you DON'T have them get vaccines. But honestly, that's reactive rather than proactive. "I mean sure innocent children died, but at least the parents went to jail!" Bittersweet at best.
>>697867869
Oh I didn't realize I was talking to the one person in existence that fully understands how time and the entire universe works. Nice to meet you.
>>697867576
Shewptie-woop. I'm impressed, faggot.
>>697868071
Yes, reference is correct.
>>697868236
I remember you from other /b/ and I hated you there too
>>697868312
>>697867683
I'm not going to change your skewed opinion of what free will is, so there's no point in continuing our argument. I hope things change for you and you one day can understand what I'm trying to tell you.
>>697868426
That's a shame.
Anyway, arguing about position on this topic is an endless endeavour. It's nice to see new arguments here and there, but other than that discussion is rather dull.Bye bye
>>697866045
circumcision is a command from jew god anyway, can be disregarded. moslem god is just false anyway. Christian God does not require circumcision (as Christ fulfilled the law).
>>697868227
If you think about it for a while, it ia obvious. Everything you do has causes, you can only act in reaction to them.
>>697855068
seen the real vid; this is bettr
>>697867683
>Then you are just saying that everything is deterministic by default
No I'm saying GOD determined it
Without him, it is not deterministic.
>>697869732
>>697868071
Yes it is very depressing. And you are right, punishment is not a good method of changing people. Unfortunately it often works, and makes for a good deterrent, and there is not anything better.
