The Soviet Union style of communism failed, but does that mean we should give up on the idea entirely?
I like the idea of communism because at its core it reflects the idea of community and collectivism that are central to the human experience. Capitalism tends to focus on greed, individualism and hierarchies, but I cannot see how long this system can last as the world is populated with more and more people. As the global population grows, there must be more sharing of resources. This runs contrary to the capitalistic vices greed, individualism, and hierarchies. It is impossible to have an increasing population while wealth and resources becoming concentrated on fewer and fewer. Doing so risks political division, race war, class war, civil war, and potentially world war.
Although, the original Marx design of communism doesn't work, it is based on a better foundation, and that foundation is altruism. So, I ask, can communism be modified to work?
there's too many lies both from and against communists state to accurately judge whether the system did well or not for them
so i don't have much to base future success on
The problem with the soviets was their authoritarianism, not their communism.
It will take a paradigm shift in human thinking for humans to escape capitalism, just as a took one to escape feudalism.
People will come to realize that having the profits of their labor stolen by the globalist elite class is as unsustainable as the divine right of kings. The question is when will the critical mass be achieved.
Communism will win.
google Bookchin
Post-scarcity is inevitable, and therefore something more towards Communism is also inevitable
Whether or not it is anarchism or leninism or whatever is just futile guessing
>>752614998
agreed
There's a study by an english guy, if I'm not mistaken, that makes an economic projection for the USSR and in the mid-90's the money distribution per-capita in the USSR would be greater than USA's
I believe communism or another form of post-capitalism will arrive soon (before the next century, I suppose), because it's unsustainable
The point is: I think there's a lot to learn, and understand it's not black and white, and there are shades of grey inbetween every stuff
So don't fall for stupid duality-thinking arguments, read a lot, get informed and try talking to people about your views while still understanding their thoughts, and how radical you will sound and make them familiar with self-criticism
That's what we need most: self-criticism and a critic view at everything
Then we can achieve something
I don't think 4chins is the best place for a good argument though
>>752614296
The biggest problem about Socialism and Communism is, again, the government. With a absolute and centralized form of power, sooner or later corruption, personal power and biased opinions collapse the system. The most successful and prosperous countries in the world don't use any of these, they most rely on a mixed form called Democratic Socialism, with use the best of both worlds: Democracy and Capitalism for handle the economy and Socialism to handle the population. Communism is doomed to fail, because a centralistic form of power means all the power being handle for a couple of persons. Corruption and miss management is inevitable
>>752614296
I sort of agree. Socialism might work on a small scale, but it would be hard to stop people of taking advantage of it. If we keep it on a national level I think it will be fine. We can call it Socialism National. Maybe abbreviate it to Izanism, or something like that.
A few things
1) The best models we currently have very strongly suggest that global population will peak at between 9 and 10 billion people and start to decline rapidly as health, educational and economic standards for the poor are skyrocketing
2) Capitalism isn't about greed, it's about establishing a hierarchy of competence. Good luck ascertaining which neurosurgeon you trust to remove your father's brain tumor in a society which fails to assess merit to individuals
3) If we do away with personal property, we do away with the ability to calculate relative value effectively. In system where property belongs to everyone, just as we lose the ability to assess individual merit, we lose the ability to appraise the value of resources. In practice, socialist systems have tried to address this issue by creating committees to assess the value of items e.g. loaves of bread, bricks, bicycles etc. and the issue arises that, because value is constantly changing temporally and at all times relative to all other things, it becomes such a complex question as to be practically impossible.
In a capitalist system, the assessment of the value of items is outsourced to the countless individual transactions that occur daily and the value emerges naturally.
>>752614296
SU failed, Cuba failed, NK failed, Cambodia failed...
Which communist goverment didn't fail?
>I like the idea of communism because at its core it reflects the idea of community and collectivism that are central to the human experience.
>I like this economic system because of all of this non economic arguments
>Capitalism tends to focus on greed, individualism and hierarchies,
So, human nature and liberalism?
>>752614876
why take a risk?
i doubt that it would be worth it
Just a few things here too:
Brain surgeons have something called a reputation. There is absolutely no need to give a brain surgeon 10,000 acres of land in order to easily identify him as the competent one.
No one is saying we should do away with personal property, certainly not communists as a whole. Communism argues against private property - owning land, forests, mines, factories, ideas... basically all ownership that allows a person to leech off the work of others. How many loaves of bread are equivalent to a bicycle is not a question that communism has a lot to say about.
>>752615940
>implying meritocracy is real
there's no meritocracy because people do not have the same conditions and access to even the most basic stuff
"hurr I'm a successful person because of all my hard work"
Yeah, that and because you grew up in an upper middle-class context, and didn't have to worry about working at the age of 7 to bring food to the table
There are people who don't even have clean water, thinking that someone "made it all on their own" is just plain fucking stupid
Even more when people cherrypick outliars and take them as the rule
Talking about your 3rd point:
Socialism/Communism isn't about ending PERSONAL property
Personal property is like your home, and your food, and your clothes and pretty much everything you have
It's about ending Private Property, which are the means of production
An industry, the machinery, all those things that are used to provide products, this is what would stop being owned by a couple of people
>>752616334
China is doing better than the USA
>>752614296
>>752616334
> It is impossible to have an increasing population while wealth and resources becoming concentrated on fewer and fewer.
Google Pareto distribution.
>that foundation is altruism
>gulag-ing an entire class of people just because of the conditions of their birth
>altruism
This is why communism and nazism are not that far apart.
>>752614296
you also like being really gay.
>>752614296
Shit bait, also too long
>>752614296
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXBjVau1w7Y&t=200s
#HandsUpDontFireMe
Fucking canada
>>752614296
maybe it focusses around positive ideas, but societies who are communist are not able to compete against capitalistic societies, hard work is punished in communism, there was a class named kulak which were basically hard working and intelligent farmers who got murdered because they did well, maybe not to such an extreme extent, but its in communism built in to punish hard work.
because you get bigger rewards in a capitalistic society, you can simply go to another country, and the communist country will end as a shithole.
>>752616511
Yeah, because it has a huge slave labour force and abandoned most of it's communist principles after watching Hong Kong boom with capitalism.
It's a capitalist aristocracy.
>>752616651
>fukken saved
>>752614296
How will you motivate people to pursue demanding jobs when you dont reward them for the extra effort?
>>752615839
>There's a study by an english guy,
Citation needed. If you want to make a scientific argument, do it right.
>>752616511
China is only Communism in name and some political infrastructure. China economic system is, basically, Capitalism.
>>752614296
>>752616866
trying to get the guy's name, wait up
but it's funny how you read this kind of shit:
>>752616651
and don't ask for a single source
>>752616888
china has a very weird mixture between a lot of state intervention and capitalism, buts far from liberalism and communism.
its more like an oligarchy, or autocracy like russia or turkey.
its not a classic democracy like germany nor a dictatorship like nazigermany.
>>752616495
And all these, sooner or later, fail because corruption. A system is a idea, a idea carried by people. You said "stop given the power and production to a couple of people, give it to population" Sorry but no, you don't give anything to population, you only transfer the power from private corporations to the government. And, who is the government? Surprise, a couple of people. You don't fixed the problem, only move it from one point to other.
>>752617017
The other guy presented things that are known. Kulaks and their fate are historical fact.
You said "some study by some dude".
>>752616495
IQ and trait conscientiousness (which is one of the 5 proven personality traits and basically means dutifulness and work-ethic) predict lifetime success better than family wealth, race, sex... basically whatever
Yes, if your life sucks, it's probably your fault.
You're also making the mistake of assuming the neo-liberal claim is that "merit" is about deserts. It's not. It's about incentivising smart, creative, productive people to continue being smart, creative, productive so that we can benefit as a whole.
The Soviet Records themselves show how inefficient and lazy workers became once they collectivized the farms. Collectivism and bureaucracy breeds laziness and inefficiency because one doesn't fear the repercussions of failure nor are they enticed by the possibility of success
Secondly,
that's actually irrelevant
Because it's the ascertainment of value which causes the forces directing the means of production to choose to produce the items that they will produce.
It's hard to know whether to divert your efforts to produce 10000000 red t shirts or 10000000 bicycles if you don't have a market from which to calculate value
>>752616847
>you work in a factory
>you make $12 an hour
>you decide to put in extra effort and increase your output
>you make 20% more products above your weekly quota
>your employer has more products to sell that week
>your employer makes more money
>you still make $12 an hour
To me it seems capitalism doesn't reward extra effort.
>>752617147
>historical fact
sure shit
you're gonna say shit like Holodomor, now?
>"hurr they killed 5 million people"
There's "proof" of that, too
only problem is: no serious historian takes that bullshit seriously
People who study it confirm there has been death by starvation but it's something around 300 thousand people, and mostly because of inaptitude to provide for them, no such thing as a genocide
Yes, I didn't present a solid argument, didn't make my point around that either
I was just telling OP that because:
1. didn't think the thread would grow anyways, and just wanted to make him go after stuff to read
2. my point doesn't revolve around it, I said it's a projection, not a fact, and I'm still trying to remember the name of the guy
You're arguing over the most insignificant part of what I said
Just ignore it, if you will
But don't bring that kulak shit up if you want to make it your main point and don't even have some bibliographic backup
>>752617383
>>you decide to put in extra effort and increase your output
>>you make 20% more products above your weekly quota
>>your employer has more products to sell that week
>>your employer makes more money
That's not how production works, over-production hurts the commoditie's value.
If you put in the hard work to, say, make the production line mofe efficient, you will be rewarded by any business man with half a brain.
>>752617605
>gulags didn't happen
ok
>>752617707
>That's not how production works
You've never worked a real job have you?
>>752617145
I never even said I was pro-communism
actually, I'm really fond of it as an Ideology
but when put in practice, I can see major flaws
not in the idea itself, but in the execution, when it was implemented
I'd really like communism to be a reality, but most of all I'd like it to be implemented just as planned
sadly it's pretty fucking hard
Just like anarchism, which is another thing I like, but I believe it only works in small societies, not in an entire country
not even an entire medium-sized city
Bummer
Why are so many communists <5'10"?
>>752617383
Reward ≠ money. You solely simplified the problem to match your own idea. Rewards can be promotions, qualification and so. A extra effort show your personal capabilities and capacities. That give a solid ground to negotiate better salary and bonuses.
>>752617605
>the totally not-biased and completely objective hacks I MEAN historians who I encountered through a fair research process that I didn't just enter with a preconceived concluson all agree on this fact! And the historians who disagree aren't serious!!!
Bro
Read alexander solzhenitsyn, a dude who actually suffered under the system
Soviet, Cuban, and Maoist atrocities were perhaps worse than Nazi atrocities. They certainly resulted in more deaths
>>752617820
Yes i have, that's how i know. You either have to store the surplus products away (and have them risk damage over time) or sell them cheaper.
>>752617844
tfw 6'6"
>>752617924
So workers should have to work hard based on the tenuous promise of future rewards that may never come to be?
Sure sounds like a scam to me.
>>752617210
So your family owns a multimillionaire enterprise
You don't even have to do something to just keep it going
on the other hand, you can be smarter than fucking Stephen Hawking in a god-forgotten land in Bali and you'll never achieve something near as a middle-class life in Germany
but good luck thinking like that
(also, learn more about IQ: it's meant to be a study on the population, it's not to be taken as a score for individuals --if you don't believe me, read what the fucking creators of it said about it)
the focus of IQ tests is to apply it to educational systems based on the population's average score
>>752617383
Why do commies think everyone works in a factory? its not the 1800s anymore.
No i mean why would i spend 15 years in higher education to be a doctor then work 60hrs per week in a hospital to make the same as someone that sits on their ass all day doing nothing???
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/weak-men-more-likely-to-be-socialists-study-claims-rsnc3l8mk
>>752614296
>The German style of Nazism failed, but does that mean we should give up on the idea entirely?
>>752617844
They are malnourished
>>752617707
>gulags didn't happen
Are you retarded or just iliterate?
Show me: where did I say shit about Gulag
I'm talking about Holodomor
Fucking Christ, you can't even read, you clearly don't know shit about economy or anything, just get out and go read a few books
>>752618492
Today, on "Things that surprise nobody"
>>752617842
Most of these "idealistic" forms of governments (capitalism, communism, socialism and anarchy) are good ideas on paper, but failed to be carried because people. People became corrupted. Power attracts corruption, absolute power attracts absolute corruption. Look around you and study what countries success and fail. Successful countries don't use any of them, because they realize the inner problem on a heavy and centralized form of government is another way to name a centralized form of power. Basically a modern form of monarchy. The power belongs to population, the benefits then need to go to the population. That is a form of socialism, but in our current economic model, you need democracy, private investors and capitalism. Pure governments form don't work. Mixed ones showed far more capacity to success.
Fun fact: the last socialist president the USA had was so popular that he was reelected 3 times and served FOUR TERMS as commander in chief.
He was so popular in fact that the only thing that could get him out of office was death itself.
Ever since then, right wingers have been terrified of socialism, not because it doesn't work but because it does.
>>752618492
>>752617605
gulags and holodomor are made up now?
ohh boi...
>>752614296
>but does that mean we should give up on the idea entirely?
yes because last time I checked it only had faggots in it and dumb fucking gullible chimps and slimy kikes with slimy circumcised cocks that stunk a mile away and rotted the non existant crops in the country.
Communists love their nigger cock at a size if 7 inches at least and their general go to item now at the adult shop is a dragon dildo, ball pinchers, a pair of bolt cutters to cut off their cock and a specially marked dog's bowl marked "marx - tyrone's little girl" on it.
>>752614296
It looks like Socialism does work after all.
>>752618315
Everything will sounds as a scam been your personal ideas biased your own judgement. In real life promotions, bonuses and better salaries are real. Maybe, and just maybe, you need to put more effort in your work, talk to your boss and stop posting bad jokes on /b/
>>752618087
Gonna read that, thanks for the recommendation
(not being ironic or anything, really appreciate the recommendation)
Sure thing there were lots of deaths
Saying it killed more people also has to do with the fact that the USSR lasted for almost 70 years and had an estimated population in '91 of more than 293 million people
But ok, I agree with that
it killed a shitload of people
which is why I like the communist ideology, but not how it was implemented, as I've said before
>>752614998
The only thing communism will win is the a bullet to the brain and a shoe to the teeth.
The only thing a communist will make is cum spurt from their unprivileged dominatrix hermaphrodites penis and the shit from master tryones ass. He will l have to surgically get a womb in order to carry the baby after the two of them have sex. He lives in a cage in a dungeon outside downing street.
>>752618409
None of the evidence supports your idea that resting on the work of your parents is a recipe for wealth... Pretty much the opposite actually. Stagnant bureaucracy fails due to its inability to adapt to the changing landscape of value
>Hey! check it another reason why Socialism fails!
Not sure why that point about IQ is relevant, since we're talking about relative IQs WITHIN the same population. Might have misinterpreted your meaning, however
>>752614296
mad cus broke
ITT: Why my retarded psuedo religion sucks more cum that yours and why I am more suitable for tyrones soyslave.
>>752618935
Your reaction is so surprisingly reasonable. We need more people like you in dialogue
Cheers
>>752619028
>soyslave.
>>752616651
Kind of like how trillions of dollars are leaving USA for place like China?
https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article/gvkqnm/marxist-vegan-restaurant-in-michigan-closes-for-predictably-marxist-reasons
>>752616511
>Anonymous
China is slowly becoming the Xi Dynasty..
>>752617707
>you will be rewarded by any business man with half a brain.
Not what happens in practice. Wages have been stagnant for decades while the productivity has been going up.
>>752618555
and you are lynching negroes, but it's ok because you put a man on the moon
>retarded logic
life expectancy in Russia dropped by 10 years when they switched to glorious capitalism
>>752614296
The application of communism as an “idea of community and collectivism” has never been sucessful because it is incompatible with human nature. Sure we say to each other that we are all so giving and loving of others and would do anything to help because it is the politically correct thing to do. If people were truly inherently good creatures that were compatible with an enviroment that was derived from collectivism and sharing then we would have never even progressed as a species to the point where this conversation was even necessary. The very existence for the need of this conversation in and of itself disqualifies people from being selfless and altruistic.
We are designed by nature, and nature has pitted us against one another for our survival. We have evolved as a species to make each of our own indivudual existences the top part of our priority list. Had you not done this in the past, you perished and were unsuccesful in passing on your gentic material to current times. Thus those current decendents in our present day are those with genetics that oriented their thought process in a way of self preservation. Were are creatures not of greed or selfishness but creatures with a desire to survive. It just so happens that the best person for ensuring your survival is yourself. This selfishness and a bit of greed are catalysts to fulfilling our deep desire to survive.
Capitalism is the best economic system because it is compatible with our nature aka our desire to survive and rely on ones self. This method allows each of us to put our own interests first and benefit others at the same time. A willful transaction between two participants in a free market will only take place if both parties benefit.
The method of relying on others for your survival is one that only a fool would take.
Tldr? Go fuck yourself faggot
>>752618658
You'd think those facts alone would be enough for an adult human being.
(tho I wouldn't call FDR an actual socialist, but then again I am not a Yank)
>>752618655
ok, this time I'm gonna agree with you about the descentralized stuff
That's exactly the point
Even Capitalism is pretty cool on paper
makes lots of sense, but monopolys grow stronger everyday, 2/3rds of the world is in poverty condition and for those countries to prosperate, there are a dozen countries getting fucked in the ass
They strive on the labour of poor countries
What I believe is gonna happen is either some form of post-capitalism based on shared economy (not because people are cool, but because resources are scarce), or we're taking a step behind and become even more conservative and get along with it until another critic point of capitalism hits us even harder,
ooor what I actually think is gonna happen: a new form of economy that we don't know yet based on descentralization, which is gonna be based on the internet dynamics
>>752619665
>work hard your entire life
>let globalist elite steal the profits of your labor
>defend a system that is fucking you over
>be an economic cuckold
We've taught you well
>>752619665
>and you are lynching negroes, but it's ok because you put a man on the moon
You're learning fast.
It's not just ok, that's 2 issues overcome.
Space.
Niggers.
Now we need to worry about spaceniggers, gays and gay spaceniggers.
>>752619931
>murder hundreds of millions of people
>>752619938
>let communists put you into gulag because you looked at unkle sheklestein poorly
>let capitalists put you into jail because you looked at unkle sheklestein poorly
The easiest solution here for both is to exterminate jews.
You'll find that subsequent issues disappear.
>>752619938
>work hard for your short life
>Let dictator steal the profits of your labor
>Starve to death
>>752620065
Literally looks like a soyboy cumchin.
>>752620149
>>752619938
>work
>while jew rubs hands
>either system
you two don't get it.
>>752620065
>5'4"
Manlets when will they learn?
>>752614296
>>752618730
see >>752618573
Gulags existed
never said shit about that, though, you retard
Holodomor: yeah, people died of starvation
if you read what I said, you'll see I said there were around 300 thousand deaths
Holodomor supporters said it was around 5 million and that it was an intentional genocide
c'mon, guys
I'm pretty sure you know how to read
just put some effort in it, I believe you can, sweetheart
>>752620502
But it isn't bait.
It's shilling.
Like... this is fucking /b/. Why is it even fucking here?
>>752614296
Communism doesn't work like every other socialism because I like to mind my own business when I feel it and be part of a community when I feel it.
In a socialist world you MUST be part of the collectivity so the most basic freedom you can ask for, to stay alone, is impossible, the people around you literally eat you, want it or not.
Liberalism with welfare state is the only possible solution, do whatever you want but with rules and a fair amount of kindness
>>752614296
>it reflects the idea of community and collectivism that are central to the human experience
collectivism isn't central to the human experience, as we literally experience this reality as individuals, not collectives
>>752614296
>The Soviet Union style of communism failed, but does that mean we should give up on the idea entirely?
YES.
That's like saying apartheid was bad because it wasn't done right.
>>752620741
Where have i heard this before?
>Yes people died in internment camps
>Holocaust supporters say it was 6 mjillion jews and that it was intentional genocide
C'mon guys its the current year
>>752620988
>collectivism isn't central to the human experience, as we literally experience this reality as individuals, not collectives
WHO GIVES A FUCK FUCKING CHRIST YOU PEOPLE TALK SO MUCH SHIT ABOUT NOTHING
YOU AND THE FAGGOT OP.
>>752621069
I think we need to use the belgium model for nigger control next time.
And also apply the madatory castration to prevent excessive rabbit like breeding.
some things failed with good reason.
>>752615232
nice meme!
>>752621301
Why do you use those reddit tier memes.
That thing's more cancerous that communism and ebolaaidslungcancer combined
>>752614998
>capitalism is wasteful
>commodities are produced simply because they can be sold, and not because they are needed
That's some spooky shit, anon
Need is irrelevant, all things are either desired by individuals, or they are not desired by individuals.
If I start a businesses producing widgets, and no one desires my widgets, then my business folds, and all of those resources are swooped-up by someone else, for some other project.
There isn't anything wasteful about this process.
If I start a business producing widgets, and people are buying them enough that I can sustain and grow my business, then nothing is being wasted.
This is just subjective "stop liking what I don't like" drivel, masquerading as something noble "what I don't like isn't a need, therefore it is useless and wasteful to produce...but I'm not an authoritarian I swaer!!11!!!!"
>>752621402
This kills the commie LARPer
>>752621402
ebola, aids and lung cancer sounds like a preferrable alternative.
>>752615232
>Bookchin
>Bookchin was born in New York City to Russian Jewish immigrants
>>752621493
I'd rather be a nigger.
>>752621125
you're a idiot
>>752621470
>all things are either desired by individuals, or they are not desired by individuals
If it was as simple as that, the majority of people in the marketing and advertising industries would be out of a job.
>>752614296
All forms of communism have failed. Is it worth another shot? Sure, just not in America.
>>752615940
>3) If we do away with personal property, we do away with the ability to calculate relative value effectively. In system where property belongs to everyone, just as we lose the ability to assess individual merit, we lose the ability to appraise the value of resources. In practice, socialist systems have tried to address this issue by creating committees to assess the value of items e.g. loaves of bread, bricks, bicycles etc. and the issue arises that, because value is constantly changing temporally and at all times relative to all other things, it becomes such a complex question as to be practically impossible.
actually this is fucking wrong. the value of resources is roughly equal to the amount of socially necessary labour required to produce them. this fact holds true even in today's global neoliberal capitalism; if you look at market prices for commodities, they have a near-perfect positive correlation to the cost of the labour involved in their production. academic sources have provided falsifiable evidence that this is, in fact, the truth.
>>752621564
i heard sweden were running low on refugees.
if you're gonna be a nigger then why wait?
>>752621740
>If it was as simple as that, the majority of people in the marketing and advertising industries would be out of a job.
It is as simple as that, you can't force a desire into someone
>>752620892
>This/Thread
>>752614296
HAIL STALIN!
Communism works! GTFO if you think differently.
>>752621645
No you are for posting all that crap on /b/.
No one cares.
>>752622137
What would I do?
Absorb myself into a giganigga or something?
>>752622536
10/10
I'm done with bootlickers ay.
>>752622683
i'm sure you'll figure something out.
>>752622772
>I will become a giganigga
>we may finally be able to defeat giganigga 9001 with my giganigga powers
>>752622614
no u
>>752623186
that's the spirit.
>>752623187
Reverse, back to you.
>>752614296
>The Soviet Union style of communism failed, but does that mean we should give up on the idea entirely?
Real value is added by logistics, management, and sales+marketing.
Production is overrated. Picture related.
A man owns his mind, body, and the results of his actions. Communism rejects 'man'. Under communism, a man has no claim to his body or mind. He exists only to serve the "collective". Somehow, under communism, it is immoral to take, but moral to give. Give to who? Everyone? But somehow it's moral for them to take?
Communism is the ideology of human sacrifice. It's fundamentally the same as desperate men digging out the heart of their neighbors to sacrifice to the Sun God for good harvest. But communists replace their god with the "collective".
communism cant work of 1 simple reason humans. Humans have the innate need to have more than others may that be land women wealth and so on that in itself is an undenied factor that doesnt allow communism to exist.
Second one is the idyllic vision evryone has that evrone will do whatever job he likes but thats impossible there are only so many workplaces in a cooled office but what about people who work in mines or people who need to clean sewers not to tell about cesspools cleaners who wants to do that? Marx ideas are good but they are to far fetched from reality to work
>>752623672
It is basically a religion ay.
Some with LBGT.
It's fucking retarded.
And they condemn the religious right?
>>752623552
One can only market if there is something to sell. Production is the use of man's mind to turn hunks of stone, iron, and woof into something that individuals perceive as useful. Marketing and sales add tons of value. But production and creativity are the root of this value.
>>752623903
Wood*
>>752622536
I just want to jerk off to that pick so hard right now.
>>752617844
>Why are so many communists <5'10"?
soy "milk" and soy "meat"
>>752614296
>>752615870
I'm not a socialist, but have you actually read Marx? He realized this.
>>752623903
>Production is the use of man's mind to turn hunks of stone, iron, and woof into something that individuals perceive as useful.
Moving the goalposts again, eh?
The "seize means of production" meme stands for tools and machines. You can't seize minds and ideas.
>>752618881
>A country populated with nothing but white people!
the happiest place on earth...
