Any concerns about losing your Obamacare soon?
Apparently it will be replaced with "something terrific"
>>713581954
Not at all.
You must not have an education or must be on your parents welfare plan if you think missing paying 800 dollars a month (thats the panlty for not being Black and getting it for free, or illegal) is something bad.
>>713581954
All I know is that it will take at least a year for any changes to happen, by 2018 at least.
>>713581954
Yep.
The future doesn't look good at all.
>>713582096
Health insurance is not free at all. People with less income are getting no insurance if they can't pay it. Also, the penalty fees are a myth. Obama's healthcare laws are actually conservative and he made the healthcare companies, pharmaceutical companies even more rich by coercing more people to pay, plus making them pay higher amounts.
>>713581954
I am, and I'm not black or getting it for free. However, I'm not hopeful that Trump's vague mystery plan will do anything.
First, Trump is an elitist, clueless, feckless, arrogant cunt. What the fuck does he care about the poor? Second, the problem lies in the insurance companies, hospitals, and pharmaceutical companies. Until they can be forced to lower prices and keep them low, the US medical situation is fucked.
>>713581954
hoping my insurance rates go down to pre-obarrycare levels.
if that's what you mean kid.
>>713582125
maybe to a whiny little tard like you.
>>713581954
Oh yes, the 'affordable' healthcare that is inconveniently no longer affordable?
>>713582276
yeah, save us all some trouble and kill yourself. mmk?
>>713582344
You've got no idea what you're talking about kid.
>>713581954
Won't be replaced with anything. We'll also be losing medicare, social security etc. So illness and death rates will sky rocket
I actually have a chronic physical medical illness and no income right now, no job. During the Bush presidency, it was legal for health insurance companies to deny me health insurance after I had a gap in my coverage with a major company, and they openly wouldn't allow me to pay money for coverage when I had money. The only thing Obama helped me with was a part of the legislation that finally made it illegal for health insurance companies to deny me health insurance. But my health has deteriorated over the years because of not being able to go to doctors and getting my medicine. So now I've got my dad paying my insurance because Obamacare is indeed NOT FREE. That's total bullshit, poor people don't get free healthcare, sick people don't get free healthcare, that is a fucking lie because I'm both and would be fucked if I didn't have someone else to pay it right now.
>tl;dr your government is evil as hell
I'm not the only casualty of this either, there's millions like me, falling through the cracks, all while you perpetuate lies like this:>>713582096
Who needs nigger care? I have a job and health insurance because im not a nigger.
>>713582504
sure kid
>>713582626
Your Grandma would like a word with you...
>>713582640
OK son.
>>713582626
Did you not know "Obamacare" is not an actual thing? It's just a term for the healthcare laws passed by the Obama administration, it's not some program to give free healthcare, quite the opposite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act
You not knowing this shows that you're still on your parents' healthcare plan and you're not paying it yourself and you probably don't even have a job.
>>713581954
>losing obamacare
I never had it. It's shit.
You pay more in Obamacase for less coverage and options, deductibles and higher copay than you do going private.
Obamacare didn't change anything, no matter what the liberals cram down your throat. Instead, now, if you don't have health insurance, you get to pay ~$3000 every year ontop of your tax filings because muh socialism.
>>713582194
That's why I've seen Black's and illegals with health insurance and $0.00 monthly?
>>713582560
Wow. Imagine that. Pre-existing conditions and Health Insurance companies refuse to sell you a plan you can afford.
Communists...every damn one of you leeches.
Die if your genetics are this fucked up.
Go pay for your own medical bills instead of forcing private companies to foot your bills.
Parasites.
>>713582801
Curse you.
>>713582801
You fail at reading comprehension.
>>713582801
>I have no idea how insurance works.
>>713582674
yawn. no argument, just insults.
$147.00 per month pre-obarry.
$800.00per month post ACA.
ask me why I voted for trump.
before you ask this all can be proven with cancelled checks and paystubs.
you do have a job kid, don't you?
>>713582801
>>713582961
Oh look, it's the yawn guy again. Yawn.
>>713582961
Yeah, I'm even a libtard sometimes, and I have met very few folks who have benefited from ACA. It's a mess and largely backfired. I also hear this from folks I know in medicine.
>>713582560
Hey asshole.. You are supposed to get insurance before you get sick.. It's not everyone elses fault that you are a goddamn moron. The ACA is great for retards like you, but it screws the responsible people who are actually doing the right thing.You are actually bitching that it isn't free when in reality you are paying way less than you should be and probably should be denied coverage entirely. I don't know what chronic illness you have, but I sincerely hope it fucking kills you soon so the rest of us can stop paying for your dumb ass.
>>713582961
>thinking Trump is going to lower the costs
He probably bought stock in healthcare companies just to make money off you idiots. He won't lower the cost.
>>713583114
Again, you fail at reading comprehension. Read it 10 times and maybe, just maybe, possibly, just possibly, you might understand.
>>713582961
>replying the same as I was replied to but now you're feelings are hurt.
I'm retired and on Medicare which I paid into all my working life to take care of me now.
You voted for Trump because you're uniformed.
Krugman estimates 5M Trump voters will lose healthcare now.
How's that feel?
>>713583077
>>713583126
yawn, nice non answers.
ITT edgy teens who don't know how this works or will affect them.
>>713583186
>Krugman estimates 5M Trump voters will lose healthcare now.
3.2 million *additional* people were estimated to lose Obamacare anyway, as the costs keep rising annually.
I'll take my chances with uncertainty than certain doom.
>>713583114
Your future is suicide. Am I right? I can tell from the angst and irrational anger in your posts. Also, your mind doesn't seem to understand the words you're replying to. It shows you have some sort of mental problem. Seek help so you can buy your anti-psychotics and make shareholders like Trump even more rich.
>>713583114
Compassionate Conservativism at work.
>>713583114
You don't have a clue, kid. Holy fuck.
>>713583186
so whats a old man like you doing on 4chan?
looking for little boys????
>>713583323
retarded shitposting at work
>>713582530
Repubs have too much invested in votes from the old to get rid of medicare and social security. They'll just gut the system as much as they can, put as much of the money left in the system to "more efficient private systems" so their buddies can rake in a few dollars, and then sit on their radio and tv media empire all day crying that "the media" just doesn't get how this is all inevitable because government sucks and its the democrats fault that this is happening.
>>713583360
This is an adult board, 18 and over. You're not old enough to be here. You should leave before you get brainwashed by the suicide meme programming on 4chan. I'm sure your teen mind is very susceptible to such influence. Thousands have come here and committed suicide the past decade.
>>713583360
theres no age limit to be on 4chan, you idiot. Its for everyone. Besides, i would say that 4chan is not for kids, so he has more right to be here than you do. 4chan has porn and violent images on it, so YOU are the one who should not be here. The guys an adult. you are not.
>>713582194
I pay $80 a month. Before Obamacare I had no health insurance
>>713583360
>????
Fucking emotive newfags
>>713583186
No surprise here, Trump voters are the lowest IQ citizens in the US. These fools always vote against their own interests.
>>713582961
>before you ask this all can be proven with cancelled checks and paystubs.
> tfw living in a first world country where healthcare is free
>>713583587
Do you mind telling how much income you have? For the record, I don't believe you and I'm sure you're lying. I'm asking this question to confirm if you're lying.
>>713583669
roughly $18,000 per year
>>713583641
>>713583595
Here comes the CTR shills.
>>713583644
I've been to free clinics in the EU, Australia, NZ, Canada.
Your public care / free clinics are like soup kitchens in the US, guy.
You get free broken bones set and free tamiflu, and that's about the extent of your socialized healthcare in reality.
>>713583698
Now I know you're lying. You do not pay $80 for health insurance. They don't know you're lying, but I know you're lying.
>Obamacare
AKA: Make white people slave away 50+ hours a week so degenerate jobless blacks can have healthcare
>>713581954
>obama care is replaced with
>work
>actual jobs for you to fucking earn what you take instead of just begging for it
>"something terrific"
>>713582801
>Die if your genetics are this fucked up.
Perhaps you should berate them for getting sick in the first place. Terrible financial move.
I'd say twats like you deserve the mess you're creating, but the rest of us are stuck in your retarded fantasy as well.
Doesn't bother me. I make good money and buy good private insurance. They dropped a quarter mill or so on me last year when I got cancer. I paid nothing. Hospitalization is free. Scans are free. I think I drop in ~10k a year in premiums.
I think America should have a social welfare system that includes a health mandate for everyone, with the option of those that are well off to take a private option for better care.
Of course, little shits like you that are in their early twenties, have never been truly ill or damaged, and don't give a fuck about anyone else can't be bothered to pay their microscopic amount of taxes. I'm in the class that will bear the costs, not you little turds. The second you get a couple kids, you're taxes are going to be essentially nullified at your paygrade anyway.
You barely pay taxes.
> but muh gobbermints
>>713583810
>being this delusional
>>713583735
> literally use our healthcare all the time
> this is how your healthcare is
XD
Health insurance in general is going downhill... currently make 40k/year. Paying 3480/year for my isurance. I can keep the same coverage next year but for 4680... mind you its shitty insurance too.
>>713583752
believe what you want. Innovation Health Silver plan. I pay $88.17 per month. The total premium is $434.17 per month. Advanced Premium Tax Credit is $346.00 per month and I pay the remainder, $88.17
>>713583469
>>713583509
>>713583588
amazing. three responses. non of them answered the question. non can they grasp the obvious.
>>713583641
yawn. child detected.
>>713583671
I love this one. always posted by some loser.
>>713583752
>>713583810
>>713583816
>>713583861
>>713583920
only 1 solution...
>>713583297
Certain doom? What LEGITIMATE threat are you facing?
US healthcare system: death panels
>>713583982
not an argument
>>713583998
Summon Hitler and get him to run for president, get him to deport all the illegals and blacks.
>>713583928
we did answer the question little boy. Now go and do your homework before your mommy finds out your looking at porn. This is a big persons place, okay?
>>713584062
I'm not following this logic here. wut
>>713583816
Cause jobs are coming? Please... automation is coming.
>>713584036
see, I was right. you are a loser.
>>713584110
>He doesn't get it
Oh you poor hungry child.
>>713583297
Mine went up $100 this year.
>>713584068
yawn. such a failure. have you ever succeeded at anything?
The sad truth is the Conservative Right Wing has sold the idea to the lowest IQ voters that health care is not a right for everyone. The US is the shame of all the 1st world countries, by not giving health care to all its citizens. This must change, obviously not now with Trump in charge, but it will change.
>>713583920
Did you vote for Trump?
>>713584193
still not an arguement
>>713584237
Failre in what? what does that have to do with anything? what are you talking about?
>>713581954
American medical system is based on capitalism, has nothing to do with Socialistic health care. You pay like 5000 dollars per year if you don't need anything from doctor, where prices vary, where not all hospitals cover, you even pay doctor visits and medical expenses are covered at most 80%. You can't talk about universal healthcare if you don't have 100% coverage with equal price range in every hospital. Americucks get screwed either way, Obamacare or not.
>>713584345
It'll take another civil war to change this stupid ignorant country.
FUCK YOURSELF IN THE PUSSY YOU FAGGOT!
>>713584403
yawn. you not looking for an argument kid.
you shouldn't repetitive post like you do.
you're an asshole. we have done this before.
>>713584410
just kill yourself.
>>713584735
Child detected, you now have 2 minutes to post a pic of your face with a timestamp or else you confirm you are a child.
>>713581954
if it was replaced with an angry midget kicking me in the balls every month that would be an improvement.
>>713582194
This!
People who make 20k a year or less cannot afford it.
I didn't have health insurance before soI looked into it. Ended up being more than my cell phone and internet per month. Yeah no thanks obama.
>I don't go to the doctor anyway so why the fuck should I pay for a bunch of cripple's abusing the system?
>>713584793
this
>>713582961
Obama did some thing right, he created a health care, where before people would die before hospital. It's doubtful you will pay less under Trump, only thing that will change is that republican owned insurance companies will profit instead of democratic party owned insurance companies.
>>713584788
Here's your replacement plan courtesy of Trump, Ryan, and McConnel...
>>713584873
>>713581954
No. Especially since the preexisting condition stuff will be kept and the other garbage mandating it will be tossed.
>>713584928
Oh right, what will actually happen is that Trump's insurance companies will profit.
>>713584768
you dont know what to say do you? thats because youre a child. Go and play and let the grownups discuss.
>>713584923
Looks pretty good
>Population control
>>713584788
lol
>>713584985
>>713584929
The preexisting condition portion will be scrapped also. Trump lied.
>>713584998
You'll just be cremated cocksucker.
>>713582310
>down to pre-obarrycare levels
This
>>713585085
Build wall.
>>713582530
>So illness and death rates will sky rocket
It needs to happen at some point. The ones that are too stupid or too lazy to get a job and get health care can go suck themselves.
>>713585440
You can get 100k dollars bill for staying one night in hospital without insurance, you know that, right?
>>713584873
yes little one a plan so good our leaders are exempt from it.
>>713585440
A psychopath being conservative, who wouldve guessed
>>713584923
oh look its a drama queen.
>>713584985
trump doesn't own an insurance company.
more drama.
>>713584995
yawn. you sound awful upset for a "grown up".
>>713585708
Maybe his family does. It's not like you even know who's the owner of every company, sometimes you have secret owners like in case of Canadian insurance companies.
>>713582310
or lower than that if someone would just man up and nationalize the whole lot, make it a single payer system with no admin overcharge for insurance and all the individual health care providers, running medicare, medicaid, the VA, the state and local admin and all the rest of the shit that makes the US health care service the most expensive in the world - twice the price per head of Canada, over twice the price per head of the UK - and those countries have better health outcomes, for less money, for all the people. the US is a joke - why the fuck can't we organize a decent public health care system?
>>713582560
This is an outright lie. Disability (which would be approved if what you claim is true) gets you right in the door for medicaid, no need whatsoever for privately paid healthcare. So whatever fucking acronym you think you have and want some speed for is a good enough reason for me to say get a fucking job.
>>713586061
Because corporations make massive profits on people being sick and retards like the ones in this thread has been brainwashed to think that that is perfectly fine
>>713585784
maybe. maybe you should look that word up and see what it means.
>>713585440
>>713584793
>>713583826
>>713583816
>>713583810
sociopaths who think that they are alpha human when they are just beta scum
>>713583735
>I've been to free clinics in the EU, Australia, NZ, Canada.
Your public care / free clinics are like soup kitchens in the US, guy.
You get free broken bones set and free tamiflu, and that's about the extent of your socialized healthcare in reality.
no you are lying. Free maternity care, and childbirth, to free hospice care and terminal illness acre. all conditions, no such thing as "pre-existing" best surgeons, nurses, doctors int eh world. try the UK - half the cost of the US and better outcomes.
and the
>>713586061
too many lazy people. cheap insurance was available pre ACA.
lots of people refused to pay but still expected to be treated at a hospital.
>>713586570
really kid. the only one with the problem is you.
>>713586570
LOL. The UK NHS is number one?
ELL. OH. FUCKING. ELL.
THE NHS has had more reboots, rebuilds and refunding than the NAACP. Are you fucking kidding me?
There's wait lists for fucking Epipens in the UK. Where the actual fuck did you get that chart from?
>>713585708
wanna bet that his billionaire firends don't? wanna bet that his share portfolio doesn't include health providers adn theri insurance firms?
of course if he would release his tax returns and show us his huge conflict of interest business portfolio (and put it in a blind trust, like carter had to do at Republican insistence with his peanut farm) then we might have a better idea...
even if he isn't gaining on this, his swamp buddies will - the Education dept given to a womwn who gave him 9.5 million for his campaign - and who owns private schools... the transport dept given to a woman who cuts safety standards in mines and covers up for unsafe construction businesses... for profit...
.
>>713586764
>Epipens
which are so freely available int eh US - because Free market works
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/06/epipen-price-hike-mylan-new-york-investigation
>>713586648
in a publically funded heatlh care system which costs half the amount and covers everyone - everyones bill goes down, and everyone (who pays tax) fairly contributes.
why do yo support a system that first has insurance companies skim their costs and profits off the top, then has the health care providers skim their profits off the top of what is left, adn then has huge admin at all levels in a complex web of laywers and accountants and co-ordinators, and then has the actual costs of health care?
you literally spend half your money on admin and profiteering.
if you are so keen to make millionaires richer, why not have a heart and contribute the moneyto a system where you get health care with no questions and no forms to fill and no lawyer quibbling about what is and isn't covered - and also help out poor bastards who are ill by no fault of their own and could be helped for even less money than you are paying to the lawyers and the profiteers?
>>713586831
your losing the argument kid.
provide proof or don't post.
>>713587289
sure kid. didn't see that happen. ACA is a disaster. just like everyone said it would be.
>>713586764
dont like that ranking - try the WHO -
http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/
France number 1, Uk 18, USA 37
every single country in the top 20 is a public health care system single provider free at the point of use, paid for by central taxation.
USA 37th. that is for quality.
number one for cost.
fucking awful system
>>713586570
Not paying for other people's health insurance makes me a sociopath? Sure kid.
>Eat or pay health insurance
>>713587477
but grampaw, Obamacare didn't do what I said. so of course you didn't see it happen, because it didn't happen. But what you will see now is a reduction int eh number of people with cover - back to the good old days when America was Great by being the number one G7 country for premature deaths, lowest life expectancy and highest infant mortality - and your insurance rates won't go down, because - Profits!
>>713582096
I got free Obama care. plus I work 40 to 50 hours a week making 14 an hour. when you signed up. you picked wrong plan. own fault
>>713587738
thinks this helps his position.
wew lad
>>713587805
sure kid
>>713587714
wanting to keep a system that charges you more money then any other system in the world, is a drag on your economy, fails to provide cover for millions of people, and would cost less if nationalised, while telling sick people to get a job - yes that makes you a sociopath.
not realising that your insurance premiums are not a saving scheme - that they pay for other people's health care - makes you an economic illiterate.
your curren insurance costs would be lowered by contributing to a national insurance scheme - like the UK has (which is in any other way of looking at it a tax) that would provide cover to all, with no charge to anyone at point of use. Like the UK.
how many times do I have to say this - it would save you personally, money, and give health care to all - a benefit to all, a benefit to society.
the US loses billions of man hours through illness and disabilty because people don't have cover, dont get trested early, are afraif to go tot he doctor because of cost, cant afford the medication, or other financial reasons.
this is just plain stupid, and huge drag ont eh economy. Nearly 10% of your economy is spent on totally unproductive insurance and admin and lawyers fees.
>>713587812
well it does entirely undermine the idiot who said that a nationalized system wouldn't work because a totally different system didn't work.
wew, lad.
>>713588122
you must not be paying attention. paying $9600.00 for insurance instead of $1764.00 is a drag on the economy.
>>713588212
that wasn't me so you're the idiot then.
wew lad.
try to keep up and post accordingly.
>>713582410
I hope you get rectal cancer
>>713588310
you are not paying attention.
Whatever your personal experience of the current fucked up system is, that is not the same as a non-profit health care system paid for by a national insurance scheme (basically taxation - probably progressive so richer pay more) which would cost half the amount hat the current system costs and be paid into by more people - so unless you are quite unlucky (or very very rich) you will end up paying less - often far less - than you are now.
Obama care did not even attempt to introduce this type of system. It was an abortion of a clusterfuck made worse by being the only thing they could squeeze past republicunts who want to keep everything the way it was - high premium, low cover, high profit for them and their big donors.
>>713583114
go choke on your dog's cock
>>713588380
Now listen here fella, I didn't say you were the idiot who thought that because x didn't work Z wouldn't work - I just said it undermined that idiot.
jaysus boy, are you slow or what?
>>713588122
I'd be more than happy to pay it if it was on more of a sliding scale where those who can afford it pay more and those who can't afford it pay less.
If the system rewarded you for not using your coverage with lower rates or a kickback. Focused on helping people become healthy and not a drag on the system. But at the end of the day it is a for profit industry so it will never change.
>this thread
How many of you fucks even pay for your own insurance?
Aca was an obvious mistake
>>713587842
Not lying. I didnt pay for anything. Got free dental, vision and medical. I have asthma and got my meds for free.
When all you can say is Sure kid. I can tell you haven't signed up for it the right way or are too young to do so.
>>713588481
sure kid
>>713583114
this is just so typically American. Arrogant and unthought out.
You are lucky enough not to be sick, not to have some genetic flaw, not to have a "pre-existing condition"
you are lucky enough to have a job - and no doubt you think you earn every penny you make (is it hard work that makes you worth that much - floor scrubbers and sewer workers work harder than you, and longer hours, for less pay) Is it intelligence and qualifications that make you worth that money _ lucky you for the genetic lottery and the social position and advantages of your parents that played a big role in that.
or are you self made - never helped by society (except in that it exists and enabled you to thrive - so that those kids that would have hunted yo down like feral dogs and stripped and beaten you as a child were in school instead, or the plague that would have taken you as a kid was contained by decent public sewage systems and health care and housing)
you are fucking lucky - and fucking arrogant.
I hope you never get ill. I hope you never discover that you have a late expressing genetic condition. I hope you never get cancer, or suffer from any stress of have any illness all your life.
I hope you pay your over inflated insurance premiums for a hundred years and die in a car crash, never having claimed a pennyworth of health care, and having donated all that money to other people's care, and the huge corporate profits.
I hope you live a long and healthy life.
>>713588581
sure kid
>>713588970
sure kid
>>713581954
I mean it's not a big deal... oh unless you're one of the millions who have their premiums subsidized by the ACA. In that case you're probably fucked.
>>713589166
sure kid. drink some bleach please.
it will help with your crying.
>>713588733
It will change - because it cannot go on being as huge a drag on the economy.
Best case scenario is that a future president will start a national insurance scheme and pour the money into public hospitals and allow private ones to join as non profit participants - allow free market to undercut the private hospitals and insurance so they go broke and have to join in .
>>713589166
your cursing and name calling distracts from the point you are trying to make which i completely agree with.
To summarize.
1. Healthcare should not be "for profit" the idea is to protect everybody and a reasonable and shared cost to all. This happens already without the ACA because you cannot be denied care at a hosptial in the US. Since people do not have healthcare they do not get PREVENTATIVE care, they only get reactive care like the emergency room. This ends up going on the taxpayer ANYWAY. People who think subsidizing premiums for those who can't afford health care is costing them money are delusional. They will be paying that money ANYWAYYYY.
2. Healthcare should NOT be tied to a job. It is ridiculous to do this for reasons I won't be listing as I'm lazy.
3. NOBODY SHOULD BE DENIED HEALTHCARE COVERAGE.
>>713589374
sure kid
>>713589478
you need to stop posting now kid.
>>713589166
Easy for you to say when other peoples insurance are going up on your behalf.
Spoken like a true leech
>>713589559
why do people keep saying kid and not posting any relevant information?
>>713589654
yawn. gotta love the instant butthurt from this generation.
they wonder why their lives don't work.
>>713589478
sorry for the cursing, but I get carried away...
yep - cheaper better, and morally sounder - why do people insist on paying more money for a broken system that rips them off, and then say "freedum" and "I don't want to pay for niggers"
fools.
>>713589559
you should never have started...
>>713589675
when there are relevant point being made I answer in kind.
most of this thread is būtthurt gibberish form mad Hillary supporters.
>>713589675
because they are trolls
lazy cunts.
pick one or both.
>>713589827
see what I mean
>>713589675
>>713589845
busy day at the quickie mart?
>>713589767
if this is the same shit poster who was on yesterday - my generation started in 1964. Space Age, not Gen x or millenial, not baby boomer or the Lost.
which year were your parents unlucky enough to have the condom break then?
>>713589886
relevant. kek
>>713589860
no you don't. you have been presented with facts - the fact that the US health care system is the most expensive int eh world and that every other civilized country has a better system which costs less, and all you can say is "sure kid"
so you are basically, not contributing anything.
>>713589991
so you still won't prove your age kid.
sorry unlike you I was wanted and loved by my parents.
>>713590093
facts? don't make me laugh kid.
>>713590041
very relevant to you - both ways.
but how about you stun us with some of your wisdom - you know, post something we can discuss. make a contribution.
>>713589827
I just don't understand how people can't seem to grasp that since you cannot be denied medical care, as a tax payer you end up subsidizing health care for people without health insurance anyway?
Once you can admit that, providing health care for everybody is desirable as you can keep costs down (regular doctors visit as opposed to incredibly expensive emergency room).
This seems like it should be a totally bipartisan issue?
I think people just hate actually seeing their tax money go there. It's much better to pay more but have it be more obfuscated how its happening??
>>713581954
>Any concerns about losing your Obamacare soon?
Since it's called the "Affordable Care Act," no, I'm not worried.
>>713582096
>You must not have an education or must be on your parents welfare plan if you think missing paying 800 dollars a month (thats the panlty for not being Black and getting it for free, or illegal) is something bad.
But you're leaving out the part where people get offsets so they don't end up paying that much, How convenient to not mention that.
>>713590107
prove yours - driving licence in five minutes of fuck off
>>713590207
really kid.
>>713590271
sad, sad little man.
>>713590150
ok prove me wrong
>>713590318
yes, you really are a lazy cunt and a troll.
>>713590395
just face the fact you have nothing.
well maybe a lot of spite because you can't handle the election results.
>>713590358
yes, I believe you are a sad little man - now prove your old age.
>>713590458
you seem to have issues.
>>713584345
Nice try
>>713590496
sure kid. right after you.
>>713590496
>>713590482
>>713590458
>>713590395
>>713590358
>>713590318
>>713590271
Good to see people discussing healthcare issues here. Oh wait they aren't anymore. Ad hominem attacks are my favorite.
>>713590482
Oh, so you have no arguments, no facts, and no comeback, so you change the subject?
won't work, Sad Man.
show me why the American system is in any way better than a single payer NHS style system as used by all other G20 nations, and which is cheaper and more effective?
go on - try. Don't be a lazy cunt all your life.
>>713590556
yeah, I was, but this yawning child who keeps saying kid and pretending to be smart is getting on my wick. I suppose i shouldn't feed the troll though..
pathetic
>>713589827
>>713590221
Neither of you have even the most basic grasp on micro or macroeconomics, let alone morality.
First off, businesses don't have "morality." They exist for the bottom line, the profit, alone. This doesn't just magically change because we're talking about healthcare instead of ipads.
You talk like you have any inkling or education, but if it's "immoral" for healthcare to be expensive, then why isn't the government also fighting to lower the price of a ps4 since they're making too much profit charging $400 for a system instead of, say, $80?
If nobody's broken it to you yet, nobody gives a fuck about "your feels" and nobody wants to pay into a system where the majority of people who need the healthcare are poor dumbfucks who don't have the job or education to pay for it themselves.
Monopolies are illegal in the US. Obamacare has created them by outlawing interstate competition specifically, leaving 1 provider in a lot of states, and the whole thing is burning down now just like it was always going to.
You want me to go pay an increased premium because you chose to smoke 2 packs of cigs a day and want to cry about having cancer now? You can go fuck yourself. Can't afford your premium because you dropped out of school and aren't useful enough to maintain a job? Go fuck yourself. Bankrupt because you OD'd on drugs for the 4th time and had to be carried to the ER again? Cry me a river, then go fuck yourself.
If you want charity, go to church, but don't pretend like a small group of losers aren't getting a free ride at the expense of other people who made the ride decisions and aren't fucking up their own lives. Obamacare is a fucking sham, even Bill Clinton admitted to it, and whatever the alternative that comes after it will at least be based on rational market fluctuation and not the dumbshit voodoo bullshit that was cooked up with the ACA.
>>713590728
Yeah I mean frankly that person should just be ignored and probably has very little understanding of the healthcare system.
>>713581954
I never even got free obamacare. That shit sucked balls. All it ever did was raised the prices of health insurance for middle class people.
Rich were already rich so it didn't affect them. Poor already got free healthcare because they were poor. Middle class got fucked over big time with Obamacare since all health insurance prices rose.
no since my employer pays for all my medical and non medical coverage
>>713590812
You do realize all the things wrong with your post right? Certainly the ACA isn't perfect and needs part of it changed. Nobody said healthcare can't be expensive, but if you don't make it run by for profit busineses there is more incentive to give people healthcare plans that work for them.
My employer pays 100% of my healthcare costs so it doesn't really impact me. Your post still fails to address the fact that PEOPLE WITHOUT HEALTHCARE CAN STILL HAVE TO BE TREATED AND IF THEY DONT PAY THEIR BILL THAT MONEY HAS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE.
So maybe instead of paying it in your premium you pay it in your state or federal taxes. That money comes from somewhere killer.
Additionally what about the people who are upstanding citizens, take care of themselves, can't afford healthcare and get sick? Sure some dumb lazy asshole who smokes pot and gets cancer and is a leach may get treatment, but so will the person who actually needs it and is a good citizen but cannot afford it.
I mean you end up paying for both of those people through your taxes anyway?
I mean you can keep cursing or getting angry but no matter what you say, YOU personally will be funding the healthcare for these people if the ACA exists or is repealed.
>>713590812
the analogy between a PS4 and health care does not hold.
no one needs a PS4. N one will die without a PS4.
the price of a PS4 can be set by the market at cost plus profit that people are willing to pay - if it is too much they won't buy, and the price comes down. If they won't pay as much as it costs, then the product won't sell, and no profit can be made and they stop making them.
health care is not like that.
it is inelastic demand against price (basic economics, you know) It costs $1 for the cure for cancer , great - billions will buy it. it costs $10 - no fall in demand. $10,000? Billions still want it but many cannot afford it, but the profit is huge $9999 a go, so that is what the market will charge because they make the most profit. It costs $1,000,000 a shot - yep billions want it, but only a few can pay. But say enough millionaires have cancer and will pay the price - so that this is the maximum profit point - then that is the market price.
demand stays the same, but realizable monetary backed demand - the ones who can pay - falls. Just as many want it and need it, but only a few can pay.
point is that this is not like "everyone wants a PS4" this is life.
you think it is morally ok to charge a million for a cure that costs a dollar just because that is the market equilibrium maximiser of profit?
i am afraid you are the one who knows nothing about morality.
health care is not a manufactured product to meet a non-necessary demand.
it is a need.
When you reduce it to mere money and market forces, you are morally evil.
>>713591033
You must've missed the part of my post where I said BUSINESSES ARE FOR PROFIT you dumbfuck.
My employer pays 100% of my healthcare costs as well, but you're stupid as fuck if you don't think this still impacts us drastically.
You know what FOR PROFIT healthcare does? It provides INCENTIVE. REWARD. That means that kid who's 18 deals with all the bullshit, studies, and graduates from medical school BECAUSE OF the reward at the end of the tunnel.
What you propose takes that away completely, now what incentive does anybody have to be a good doctor? You really think your healthcare isn't going to tank because of that? You're as naive as they fucking come. You abolish for-profit healthcare and what you idiots end up with is prison-tier healthcare. Go visit a prison sometime, fucko, and see the kind of treatment we give prisoners then tell me you'd want the exact same healthcare because I can guarantee you you'd change your mind because that's exactly the level of care you get for the entire population when you cut out for-profit incentive.
You DO know that ambulances are a SEPARATE for-profit business most times not even associated with the actual hospitals, right? No, you didn't consider the fact that, if for-profit incentive was taken away, there'd likely be less than half of the ambulances on the road. That means you now get to wait an hour for one to show up when you get shot or have a heart attack, good luck with that fuckboi.
Healthcare isn't some god-given right, hell healthcare didn't even exist as we know it today 100 years ago. You either adapt or overcome. This isn't some "everybody needs a hug" country, you get what you put in and if you make bad life decisions you're going to get fucked.
The tiny minority of people you're talking about would die anyway, if it happens to me it's just my bad luck oh well, but don't try and pretend 90% of people don't bring their health problems on themselves with shit diet and bad habits.
>>713590873
premiums rose slower in general after ACA than they had been rising before it. I mean they are never really going to stop going up without some sort of radical change so its mostly about trying to slow the increase.
If you think the middle class will be spared taxes and what not in our upcoming republican administration I suggest you look over trumps tax plan again........
>>713590812
>nobody wants to pay into a system where the majority of people who need the healthcare are poor dumbfucks who don't have the job or education to pay for it themselves.
ah, well, sociopaths may take this line, but regular decent human beings wouldn't
You are happy to let people die in the streets from treatable diseases or disabilities? fine, you are cunt, we get it. Moral people care about their fellow human beings and help them.
>>713591568
you do realize a non profit company can still pay a massive salary to employees right? Just because health insurance itself can be mostly profit neutral doesn't mean hospitals / doctors / ambulatory services / etc can't still be paid very well. If anybody is being naive about that it might be you.
I understand very well how health insurance impacts me. I used to do contracting work instead of being employed and had to shop around and buy my own healthcare.
I understand very much most ambulatory services are 3rd party.
The healthcare system was ALREADY getting very expensive and very fucked. I'm not saying ACA was the end all be all, what im saying is it needs changing and some parts of it may be better if they didn't have to incentivize profit over peoples well being.
>>713591690
I mean it mostly a false statement. Not just poor people will die. You get one really bad or disqualifying disease and you can take a middle or even upper middle class family too.
>>713591510
My analogy is spot on.
Everyone doesn't NEED healthcare, that's the BIGGEST problem critics of the ACA have right now. You're a dumbass for thinking a perfectly healthy 18 year old needs a plan with all the bells and whistles, but under the ACA they're still forced to buy it or be penalized. That's the definition of fascism you dumbfuck.
We can go down this rabbit hole even deeper if you'd like. No one NEEDS a regular checkup, it's preventitive. No one NEEDS an arm or a leg or an ear to literally survive. How many diabetics do you know without a fucking foot, genius? Now tell me some poor fucker in a car accident NEEDS their severed foot to survive.
Again, you need to stop leaning on your feelings because business DOES NOT HAVE MORALS. They offer a product. If you can pay for it and want to trade money, you pay the agreed upon price for a product or service.
There's nothing "evil" about letting market forces and money control business sectors, in fact, it's WHAT OUR ENTIRE COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON.
Take your neo-commie faggot shit elsewhere and cry on the shoulder of someone who gives a shit you're a fucking hack with a shit job who can't pay the bills. Adapt or die. Stop trying to blame all these imaginary "boogeymen" and "evil things" for your own fuckups and shortcomings, you'll accomplish a lot more in life.
>>713591568
>You must've missed the part of my post where I said BUSINESSES ARE FOR PROFIT
which is why healthcare should not be a business for profit.
and as for the rest of your ill informed rant - try visiting Canada, the UK, France, Switzerland, Spain, Italy, Ireland, ANY civilized country - all have excellent health care systems that are better and cheaper than the US, and they are all public systems that are not for profit.
you are simply, wrong.
and you know that most prisons are run for profit these days, and that the US prison system is a human rights disgrace?
I do not know how the US holds up its head and lectures others on democracy and freedom and human rights when its jails, its healthcare system, its education system and its democratic electoral process are all sub third world.
If health care is a human right, then why isn't access to food and water a human right?
Why isn't housing a human right?
NEEDS are not RIGHTS.
Obongo care took away my right to not buy health care, something I can't afford.
Cool shit barry.
>>713591916
Wow, nobody needs preventive care? If you don't have health insurance you probably won't get it, and then whatever potential problem you have will get worse. Then you will go to the emergency room, get a bill you can't afford, and the tax payer will pay for it.
So like.... Its not required but it helps you and I and them and everybody?
>>713591790
Hey genius, why don't you or one of your faggo boyfriends explain why we have people coming to the US by the thousands for surgeries and health service instead of using their own socialist bullshit like Canada, Mexico, and even European countries?
I worked for years in hospitals and at least once a week you see a foreigner come in for a surgery, you know why? BECAUSE OUR SYSTEM IS BETTER. BETTER QUALITY, BETTER DOCTORS, BETTER EQUIPMENT and all because those "evil for-profit healthcare companies" are busting their ass to innovate and employ the best of the best physicians and surgeons because BINGO they want to make a fucking profit.
Use your head and stop swallowing all the commie jizz your freshman college professor is trying to cram down your throat for fucks sake.
>>713592116
You do realize the good doctors we have can be a product of something other than how insurance works right? I mean people also go OUT of the country for a love of surgeries as well because they can get the same care for a fraction of the price (E.G. medical tourism...).
It may be that you have some selection bias going on.
>>713592058
>NEEDS are not RIGHTS.
Fuck off.
>>713583982
like mmm you
facts
trump promised to drain the swamp but fills it with Soros Goldman Sachs elite
Secretary of Treasury: Steve Mnuchin
>elite billionaire
>Goldman Sachs banker
>executive of Soros owned SFM capital management
>worked directly in Soros Fund Management
>>713592110
WOW WAY TO CHANGE THE GOALPOSTS LIKE A COMMON LIBERAL FAGGOT
You said "need to survive" and, no, people don't need preventive care to survive. You got a toothache? You don't need a filling, you can pull the fucking thing out and survive fine. Halfway severed toe? You're not going to die without it.
Don't try and change the goalposts and make it how obvious a fucking retard you are. Your position got blown the fuck out and you have no logical rebuttal to what I've laid out.
Health Insurance is not some God-given right that everyone's entitled to. It's a product or service just like any other where you can pay up if you want it or go fuck yourself. Once ACA is gutted and people have to actual pay for their terrible life decisions maybe some of you dumbfucks won't go stuffing your face with meth or burgers (or both) every other day because you actually have consequences for your shit life choices that hit you in the wallet where you'll actually notice it for once.
>>713592116
I mean unlike most of 4chan im willing to accept there are pros and cons to both sides of the equation. Thats why I tend not to just resort to weird and strange ad hominem attacks.
We do have good doctors and good equipment. That doesn't mean the system doesn't need fixing or regulation?
All we need is for people to understand BOTH sides and how we can improve the system with some sort of compromise.
I understand that's probably asking too much on a board like /b which is full of people like this.
>>713591690
you drive by a poor person at least once a week. Do you ever give him money? Do you even acknowledge his existence? Then you drive and see another poor person, you could help these people by giving them money. But are you helping them? They will be hungry again in the next two days. Why are we responsible for helping people the goverment refuses to help. Don't say a trillion dollars in debt because the amount of money gathered for that recount could have fed the poor.celeaes wedding could have fed the poor for a very long time. They could take every poor person off the street but they choose to delegate the work onto the people. Same with health care they could pay for it but instead they make us pay for it.
>>713592323
>OH NO I got called out on my failed commie-healthcare daydreams so now I'm going to attempt to derail the entire conversation and change subjects instead of just admitting I was wrong
This is how liberals actually think, ladies and gentlemen. And then they wonder why adults look at them like fucking retards and crybabies.
>>713592358
I didn't change the goalpost. I am not the poster than said anything about need to survive.
My argument is based around the fact that you cannot be denied service at the hospital if you are ill, and this costs real money to tax payers. Therefore if we can find a way to insure these people, even if it costs slightly more but is better in the long run for everybody, I would like to do that.
I'm not even arguing that the ACA doesn't need to be repealed or changed at all. I'm just saying that we have to pay these costs, so if we can find a way to do it in a more sensible manner we should.
Meanwhile we've got you who clearly has no intention of doing anything other than berating others, because you think everything was just fine before the ACA (it wasn't).
I mean I'm going to be fine, my company literally pays 100% of my costs. I make lots of money and ultimately just want whats good for everybody. it's unclear what you want other than to be kind of a dick about your opinions.
>>713590556
stupid college kid detected.
>>713590631
you don't leave much of a impression kid.
remember that all the failed days of your life.
>>713591916
no your analogy is poor because no one, ever, under any circumstances needs a PS4, they merely desire one. To compare that to the need for healthcare that at some point in their lives every single person on the planet will have, is just unarguably improper.
If you understand the notion of insurance - to spread the cost of bad luck over many people - and you understand that in health care everyone will end up being a recipient (unless they luckily die young and healthy in an accident) then you will readily see that the 18 year old who does not pay in is a freeloading little fucker with no social consciecnce.
the healthy fifty year old who does not pay in a freeloader.
when he gets a bit of a chill and feels weak and wants a plan - you say - fuck him he should have been paying in before, no sympathy for pre-existing conditions, should have not been a freeloader for thirty years.
that is what I say - he should pay, to a national insurance scheme that will cover him for life, including when he is too ill to pay premiums or when he retires.
none of this is about feelings,
also, the myth that business is amoral, or non evil, or morally neutral.
just isn't true.
The need for a business to make a profit is not a moral need. A person selling crack to kids is making a profit - he cannot say "it is just business, it isn't immoral, especially because i make a huge profit"
that is an immoral business. and the same morality applies to all businesses and people.
The supposed morality of themarket is because of 2the invisible hand" as Adam Smith called it - which is the moral sense of the people buying and selling - so immoral businesses go bust, because no one will buy from them.
morality is at the heart of business.
and it is simply false to say that America was founded on the market system or the profit motive. You find no mention of it in teh Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.
Those are freemarketeer Libertarian lies.
>>713592398
No, nigger. You're just too stupid to understand that you're wrong. Nobody's going to judge you for being ignorant, but if you CHOOSE to just remain willfully stupid that's on you.
It's not a moral argument. If you want charity, go panhandle. America is not about everyone else providing for every other Tom, Dick, and Harry. If you want that, move to another country that has that system or shut the fuck up tbh. There are plenty of other places where that system is a thing, but you CHOOSE to stay here. You understand what our system is and yet you're still here.
Not a single one of you have addressed the massive amount of people who bring their own healthcare problems on themselves with a shit diet, use of intoxicants, or some other BAD LIFE CHOICES. Choices have consequences. That's life. It's also what every one of you wannabe socialist faggots seem unable to grasp. Nobody gives a fuck if you can or can't afford healthcare if you've brought the shit on yourself. Life doesn't have a reset button and it's not "evil" or "immoral" to let a fuck up die because THEY CHOSE TO FUCK UP.
>>713582194
>Obama's healthcare laws are actually conservative
>made the healthcare companies, pharmaceutical companies even more rich by coercing more people to pay
What tenet of conservatism coerces people to pay more money to private companies?
How is that conservatism in any sense?
>>713581954
It's gonna be so good Anon, so good
>>713592058
actually, you could look at the Universal declaration of human rights
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
>>713592767
I mean this argument just makes no sense. How can one just make the assumption that every person with a health issue had it happen because of poor life choices? There is just no way that can be true, especially given that for a lot of different issues we aren't truly sure what causes them.
The thing that makes sense about healthcare being universal is that, like another poster said, if you force everybody to pay into it, nobody can freeload for a period of time then join later on. Insurance in general is about distributing the cost and and using statistics to help try and fund it all.
I don't get why all these btards think that everybody who wants universal healthcare wants it for moral reasons. It's just not true, the moral stuff is a nice bi product of a system that would make more sense.
>>713590728
sure kid. like I could care about anything you post.
>>713592323
yawn. butthurt as always.
>>713592735
>A perfectly healthy 18 year old who isn't sick or ill in any way should still be forced to buy a product they have no need for just because other people have to go see a doctor. If he/she doesn't they're a "freeloading little fucker with no social conscience."
Stopped reading there. You don't seem to get the point. No one owes you shit and just because no one gives a fuck if you live or die doesn't make them "evil" it just means you're not the special little toaster your mom always told you you were and they're going about their own lives (which you are not a part of). That's America, get used to it or get the fuck out.
I'm absolutely socially conscience and I contribute far more than the average person to causes that I DEEM a good cause. Stop trying to dress up healthcare-charity into some righteous social cause you fuckwit and maybe live a healthier lifestyle so you don't have to hope other people give a shit when you keel over.
>>713592983
whats wrong with wanting a fair system that works?
it ain't obarrycare
>>713592596
>this costs real money to tax payers.
>find a way to insure these people, even if it costs slightly more but is better in the long run for everybody
So your solution to uninsured people receiving care at the hospital and not paying is forcing everyone to pay for insurance instead?
Do you not realize that your second solution has the exact same problem as the first: it costs more money to the tax payers?
You have to quantify how much people not buying insurance and receiving care costs, vs. the entirety of US taxpayers being forced to pay for health insurance (i.e. they pay for a service even though they might never even invoke it)
And you have to do something about the over 10 million illegal immigrants living in this country who don't pay taxes and still receive services at the hospital because the system doesn't work when we have countless millions of people cheating the system.
>>713592933
>beyond his control
Are you just fucking retarded or do you not know how to read? That entire statement is literally prefaced with BEYOND HIS CONTROL. Just because you're a lazy sack of shit or don't want to work 70 hour weeks to pay for your healthcare doesn't mean it's beyond your control. Get a better education, get a better job, and stop being an entitled fucking faggot like anybody owes you shit.
>>713593147
I don't necessarily disagree with you here. I think the ACA has a ton of problems that really need to be resolved, and if they can't then yeah it should be repealed entirely.
however to just sort of say things like "all health problems are a consquence of being irresponsible" or "healthcare is a luxury that people just have to deal with not ever being able to afford" doesn't really do much for the conversation. Especially since we have already committed to the fact that people have to be treated when they go to the ER even if they can't afford it.
>>713592116
You know that the Us, with its huge population and huge budget for medical research, is a world leader in some proceedures. sure. But not all proceedures. We have Americans come to europe for treatments they cannot get in the US. it works both ways.
difference is, in Europe we don;t have a third of our people not covered. We don't have thousands of people (and their businesses and their employees) being bankrupted every year by medical bills. We don't have a fifth of our GDP being swallowed by health care costs and still have a third of our people uncovered and the huge loss of productivity that causes.
Your system is not better, it is just better at a few things. But it is lousy at health care.
stop swallowing the jizz all the billionaires who are screwing your economy are spouting down your willing throat.
>>713592983
If you're just going to pretend like you're too fucking stupid to read we can stop here.
At no point did I make the assumption that EVERY person with a health issue had it happen because of life choices. i specifically said A MASSIVE AMOUNT.
If you can't defend your position without putting words into the other sides mouth then trying to shout down your own fabricated bullshit, you can scoot along fucko.
>>713581954
>Any concerns about losing your Obamacare soon?
I'm concerned about the IRS fucking me over on Obamacare again. Why does the IRS enforce the AMA, anyway? Why does the IRS even exist?
>>713593193
Yeah both those illegal people can still go to the ER and get free treatment right now? At least if you force everybody to pay into healthcare they may go to an urgent care facitility or an actual doctors office and cost less money than the insanely expensive ER (Where you can pay like $600 for them to tell you to take ibuprofen and take a nap).
I mean, if its going to cost us money either way, why not force insurance and if you make everybody have it, especially young people who will pay and almost never use it, we can drive down costs and save us all money in the end.
Plus maybe people get healthier.
>>713593366
but you made that claim without displaying any numbers? How do I know what "a massive amount" even means? Is that even true? I mean you just threw it out there without any proof or stats or anything. You might as well have words put in your mouth because the statement just lacks any real substance on it's own without some supporting information.
>>713582194
He didnt do that shit.
He mandated that everyone needed to have some kind of insurance and that you couldnt be denied coverage because of a preexisting condition. The gop let ins companies do whatever they wanted in regards to premiums, so they raised the fuck out of premiums to maintain their profit margins.
Imma laugh when trump trashes the ACA and the ins companies dump a ton of people but keep premiums where theyre at.
>>713593364
You're also a pack of cucked faggot bitches, so there's that.
If I had to get fucked in the ass on literally every other social issue (including immigration) in order to have free healthcare, I'd take literally any other alternative and most Americans think the same way which is why they've been paying the penalties instead of buying into shit-tier healthcare they don't need.
But keep telling yourself you're the smart ones when you're still bailing out Greece every other month in your little eurozone, you bunch of bumblefucks.
The only reason euros hate the American system is because you see the greener grass on the other side and keep asking yourselves why we're not in a completely miserable and fucked up situation like yourselves where entire countries are jumping ship and leaving your welfare bullshit behind.
>>713593656
How can one not need insurance? Doesn't that make some presumption that the individual knows no unexpected health issue will ever arise that they can't afford?
>>713593537
"A massive amount" clearly isn't "Every single one"
There are a massive amount of car wrecks on the roads in the US every year. Do you assume that means every fucking car crashes on the road?
You're trying to act clever because I blew your bullshit out of the water and trying to play semantics like a 10 year old just makes you look even more fucking stupid when you could just admit you don't know what you're talking about and you're likely just flat out wrong.
>>713592507
you know that the person who posted this wasn't me (who is arguing for morality in business and the morality of health care ) or the other guy who is saying he is alright but realizes that taxpayers end up being stiffed anyway so why not make the system better)
so we weren't changing goalposts, and you have shown yourself up to be a typical anti-liberal - nothing constructive or morally sound to say, desperate to derail the conversation and scream 'liberals are illogical' when there is no reason to do so.
>>713586648
Not for many.
PreACA
Oh you have the beetus, preexisting, no ins for you.
Oh you fat, no ins for you.
Oh you smoke, no ins for you.
Oh you had skin cancer on your nose, no ins for you.
>>713593421
>I mean, if its going to cost us money either way, why not force insurance and if you make everybody have it
Because one will cost me less than the other.
I am a lot less likely to need health insurance and invoke it, so my health insurance as a young adult male would be much, much less than a Hispanic girl with 4 babies at age 25.
But because everyone is forced to buy health insurance, my health insurance costs as much as someone with destructive health ruining habits and shitting out babies every few years.
You're not going to drive down costs because the people who are the least risk will pay the least, and the people who are the highest risk will pay nothing because they're poor retards living in projects.
I don't think you understand the welfare state if you think Latisha is going to pay a higher health insurance monthly bill than you, even with her 6 kids.
>>713581954
>Lel whores gonna lose their birth control
>>713593780
No I'm trying to say massive amount doesn't mean anything. Especially if the other side has a massive amount too. Then maybe its just 50/50.
What I'm saying is you said something without any real meaning or way for anybody to know if it's true, correct, or even if it is correct evaluate exactly what massive means.
What im saying is, Maybe give a % and some stats so we can either all agree with you, or not.
>>713592687
When I have a failed day, if that should ever happen, I shall look back on this and still think, "at least i am not that lazy cunt"
proof of age or gtfo , kid
>>713593815
Unfortunately I understand very well you will be paying for health insurance you likely won't use for a long time. That's kind of how health insurance works though? And then if you have some very unexpected problem (serious genetic disease that needs long term care, cancer, etc etc) you are still covered and you cost more than latisha.
Since there is no way for you to know what health problems may pop up for you even tomorrow, we don't actually know you will cost less than our dear big assed friend Latisha.
>>713593739
People have the choice of whether THEY feel they need health insurance or not. Just like they have THE CHOICE to buy any other product or service they choose.
America has rejected the notion that we need some government babysitter to tell us exactly what we need as far as plans and service go, sorry you dumbshits overseas are too fucking incompetent to make your own decisions for your own lives.
I'll be over here enjoying more freedoms and better healthcare even if I pay more while you're getting your asshole checked by some kid that barely graduated veterinarian school. Have fun with that dipshit.
USA
>>713592767
>America is not about everyone else providing for every other Tom, Dick, and Harry. If you want that, move to another country that has that system or shut the fuck up tbh. There are plenty of other places where that system is a thing, but you CHOOSE to stay here. You understand what our system is and yet you're still here.
When did you get to dictate what america is about? When did the far right get to say that America is a land of the free to starve, the morally neutral, the uncaring, the anti social, the greedy and the rapacious?
You are unamerican my neocon, neoliberal, selfish friend
>>713593892
Nigger, keep trying to play semantics. You were beat the fuck out 4 posts ago. Like any other halfwit who finished their first semester you want to pretend like people aren't responsible for their choices and actions. We're done here.
>>713593892
Replying to my own post to try to show this guy that im more than happy to agree with him if he does something other than make claims without support and use words like "massive"
http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/p0501-preventable-deaths.html
This link says that 40% of adults diseases are PREVENTABLE.
This would say he is right, a "massive" amount of adults are just irresponsible.
Now if you want to argue if preventative care would fix it, or if education would, or if people should just be fucked if they are irresponsible we can do that.
I wish this person had just found this themselves, instead of trying to claim I was avoiding anything because i "lost" some argument.
All I wanted was some actual information beyond
"I SAID THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM SO I MIGHT BE RIGHT CAUSE I SAID IT ON THE INTERNET"
>>713594208
This is one of my favorite moves people make.
"I have declared the the argument I am making is the winning argument therefore I am done discussing this."
If this btard is right or wrong is largely irrelevant, but I don't think you just get to declare yourself correct because you believe what you said?
>>713594116
>neocon and neoliberal
Clearly has no idea how politics work in America and still leaning on "muh feels" as usual. Opinion discarded.
>>713594038
>Since there is no way for you to know what health problems may pop up for you even tomorrow, we don't actually know you will cost less than our dear big assed friend Latisha.
Statistically yes I would be charged pre Obamacare less money for health insurance than Latisha with 6 kids costing thousands of dollars each time she shits out a new one.
Can you explain to me how MY healthcare costs go down because by paying for cheap healthcare for my low-risk lifestyle, I'm funding some healthcare-pool that Latisha does not pay into because she gets government assisted housing, food, services and does not have any real income?
Do you think someone living off of services like this is going to pay for healthcare? Do you think they are going to pay more for healthcare than I do, when I am low-risk and they are high-risk?
This all sounds like a big plot to get low-risk people to subsidize poor people who are high risk of needing expensive healthcare procedures done. How would any of this lower my healthcare costs?
>>713593015
But you so obviously do. You feed on attention, attention whore. You are here every day, leeching on it. You care. Because you have nothing else to live for. Pathetic yawning sad man.
>>713593130
>Stopped reading there
because you are a closed minded moron who isn't arguing, just pouting shit without thinking. fine, got it.
>>713594380
You're right it is probably not correct to say your individual costs will go down for you at age 28 or whatever you are. I suppose the argument should go a bit more like social security.
You're paying money in now, so that when you get older if you can or can't afford care for whatever ailments you have, we will still make sure you are covered.
Is that something you want? Is that something we all want?
I don't know. I need to think about it more.
>>713593193
>though they might never even invoke it
because they will live forever and never ever ever be unhealthy.
yeah good luck with that one as an insurance plan
>>713593421
States are getting rid of obama care because they cant afford it. Govt isnt paying the insurance companies back and more and more insurance companies are dropping it because they didnt see the expected amount of people sign up to make up for the lossfor it so obamacare. Now add on the fact its about to rise up 60% is a joke. Obamacare is a complete failure especially for a nation this rich
My concern is that Russia now decides our elections and our policies, but no one seems concerned.
Also find it funny that Republicans spent 8 years calling Obama a pussy who was soft on Russia, then called Clinton a hawk for wanting to stand up to them and cheered Trump for sucking Putin's dick.
>>713594467
I'm not close-minded, you're just clearly a fucking moron.
An 18 year old WITH NO HEALTH PROBLEMS literally CANNOT be a "freeloader" as you called them if they're not using the services that they're not paying for.
What kind of fucktard planet do you live on where that makes any sense at all? Just another faggot wanting someone else to fit the bill for you, got it.
And before you say "oh well he'll go to the ER", yeah accidents happen. And if that kid has $2k in his bank account he can pay for it without costing taxpayers a penny.
Go fuck yourself, you poor piece of shit.
>>713594629
unfortunately this person is totally correct. I believe what happened was that the government said they would pay insurance companies money if they lost money. But then they ran out of money to do that and just said "well we said we could but we don't HAVE to, so we aren't going to" which is going to cause subsidized premiums to rise big time for consumers. This is a huge problem, which is why even if you support something like ACA like me, it needs to be resolved. It needs to be changed or repealed or SOMETHING.
>>713594559
>Is that something you want? Is that something we all want?
I don't want to pay for old people's expensive medical procedures, especially due to fucking obesity or 30 years of smoking, no.
If people are morbidly obese or smoked for decades I don't want to fund them.
Go look at the obesity rate in America and you will see why I do not want to subsidize other people's healthcare when I am perfectly healthy.
That is why I am against such a plan.
I hope when I'm old and need lots of medical procedures I will have saved enough money to pay for them myself.
I don't want a bunch of strangers to fund my healthcare because it is not a shared responsibility among the country to share medical costs.
This sounds a lot like socialized medicine to me, everyone paying in the same amount and everyone getting the same treatment.
>>713593274
the plain fact is there was affordable health insurance.
was being the key word.
right now I'm paying a family rate for two people.
my co-worker has a child and pays only twenty dollars difference.
I can't seek affordable insurance. I am stuck with what I have.
some law huh?
>>713593798
another drama queen. nothing to see here.
>>713594808
Yeah but the problem here is that even for responsible people like me and you the insurance / healthcare system started to get really out of wack. There are plenty of upper middle class, or even upper class families who had a member get sick with something that wasn't due to their neglience. They were insured, but due to the fucked up nature of health care, it ended up damn near bankrupting them anyway.
You probably want THAT situation to be resolved. It may be the best way to resolve that is to make sure EVERYBODY is insure, making the pool of people huge, and also enacting some sort of regulations of things they must do.
>>713593264
so you who want to take health care off people who have gnetic conditions, or catch illnesses, or have accidents that disable them or injure them... are saying that all these things are in their control?
You make a big deal of saying shit about lifestyle choices and bad choices - sure - some people do. How many? How many illnesses are caused by this?
you have no figures - only selfish ranting.
and what about the question of Should we deny all health care to smokers (who pay way more in tax on tobacco than the cost of their treatment - which tends to be short and cheap as they die young - saving on pensions and long term care in old age - alzheimers for ten years costs a lot more than cancer for six months)
or what about children - we don't treat them because the lazy little fuckers don't have jobs?
>>713593947
you first
>>713581954
>Any concerns about losing your Obamacare soon?
Yeah, I'm worried about it. I have depression, and pre ACA no one would cover me. I run my own small business, and don't have enough employees to qualify for low risk business pools.
>>713582096
well I was quoted $1500 a month before the ACA, so $800 would have been fine. But I paid $350 with obamacare, and I live in Arizona. For 2016 it jumped up to twice as much, but I also get a deduction since I make under $50k. It all balanced out.
>>713582530
I'm glad you get insurance through your company, wage slave. Some of us have started our own businesses.
ITT: people who don't pay taxes or insurance arguing that those who do should pay for their healthcare. There is no end to the theft these lazy socialists would perpetrate on their neighbors who actually work and pay taxes and take care of themselves but they always talk about how shitty that self sufficient individual is.
>>713594613
>because they will live forever and never ever ever be unhealthy.
They are vastly less likely to invoke it and thus should be charged a lot less.
The idea that people who have a lot higher risk of needing healthcare (i.e. SMOKERS, OBESE PEOPLE) comes from the previous landscape where these people are charged more for their high risk lifestyle because they will likely cost the health insurance company a lot more money.
Then Obamacare came along and said everyone has to buy health insurance and pay the same amount, regardless of your risk.
Do you think everyone should be forced to pay the same amount in car insurance? I mean, it'd be wrong if a dipshit who got in 5 accidents and killed 2 children couldn't afford car insurance and couldn't drive anymore, right?
I think we should all pay the same amount in car insurance, even drivers who have never been in accidents, because some people can't afford insurance rates relative to their risk.
This is the idea behind Obamacare.
>>713594415
sure kid. couldn't be more in denial.
I come here to laugh at you.
there are more like me.
you're better than TV
>>713594689
because it never happened.
grow up or kill yourself.
>>713595024
you're right, people who are more at risk (because of lifestyle choices) should pay a higher premium.
That doesn't mean that idea can't exist in tandem with a modified ACA.
>>713595024
While I agree with you, what about people who are more likely to be a burden because of their genetics? Should they pay more too?
I'm not arguing they shouldn't, I'm trying to get your opinion on the matter and form my own as well. Please take this as constructive discourse not like that other cunt in the thread how just lobs pointless and baseless insults and spouts some nonsense.
>>713594064
>People have the choice of whether THEY feel they need health insurance or not
oh so this is all about your feels? your feels count here?
funny about how you were telling us our feels (ie moral arguments about things that are clearly evil) don't count, but your feels about saving money are sacred and have to be respected,
nope, you are just making excuses for freeloading greedy little cunts.
>>713594952
>It may be the best way to resolve that is to make sure EVERYBODY is insure
And what about the dozens of millions living under the poverty line who shit out way too many kids relative to how much they can afford? Do you think they're going to pay their fair share into the healthcare pool, or do you think people who live responsibly, don't have 4-5 kids with a sub 20k/y income, are going to be the ones footing the bills for people living in government housing and receiving government food stamps?
The idea of a pool of healthcare doesn't work so good when we have millions of people living off of free government services paying nothing already, especially when those are the people at the highest risk of invoking that healthcare.
>>713594221
he is an arrogant and ignorant prick with no idea, and no moral sense at all, don't let him get to you
>>713595161
>That doesn't mean that idea can't exist in tandem with a modified ACA.
The idea can't exist because the ACA works by subsidizing poor people with TAX PAYER DOLLARS, i.e. people who are very high risk but very poor just get tax payer dollars given to the insurance company to make up for it.
>>713595234
>who are more likely to be a burden because of their genetics? Should they pay more too?
I'm just saying this because I'm not one of those people, but yeah. They are a higher risk. They should pay more money due to it. It's just how the idea of insurance works.
>>713594363
>>neocon and neoliberal
the ideas you are putting forward fit these ideologies...
>>713582801
>Die if your genetics are this fucked up.
you don't get it at all.
1) These people all just go to the ER. So you, as a tax payer, still have to pay for it
2) sick people are non-working people. This damages the economy for a number of reasons.
3) This is all fine and good until it happens to you. Car hits you. Get cancer. Have kids...
Anyone who really feels this way is one of a few things
1) Inexperienced / Sheltered. Doesn't know what it is like to need medicine and can't get it.
2) Lacks human empathy, or has some sort of us/them mentality that allows them to see people as "others" ( niggers / poor / lazy / etc )
>>713595405
Ok just of curosity where do we draw the line for determining what factors drive up your premium? Is there just not one?
I mean is it sort of "whatever info we can dig up and correlate to future expense drives your premium up" feels dangerous. Without some sort of independent party coming up with those factors can't you just sort of FIND correlation to drive up peoples premiums for profit?
I don't know what my opinion on the matter is yet, but obviously there has to be some give and take.
>>713594689
true word
>>713594738
you didn't read the rest of the post which answered your question, so, yes, you are a close minded moron.
>>713589675
Welcome to 4chan, where everyone and no one is either a troll or as retarded as the most down syndrome downie
>>713582276
>vague mystery plan
Go read his plan you fucktard.
>>713582276
>>713582504
>>713582530
Wow end yourself
>>713594960
I told you - 52. You haven't even mentioned your age, kiddo. underage banned?
>>713595016
I pay tax - unlike Mr Trump... and Apple,,,
>>713595564
>Ok just of curosity where do we draw the line for determining what factors drive up your premium? Is there just not one?
I don't work for health insurance companies. They are the ones who have a huge amount of data of demographics of people and who invokes how much in healthcare costs.
I generally believe them when they offered someone a cheaper plan because their algorithms determined them to be low risk.
>Without some sort of independent party coming up with those factors can't you just sort of FIND correlation to drive up peoples premiums for profit?
And people who have gone for years without health insurance, look up the rates, and find that it's way too expensive simply won't buy health insurance.
Since they haven't been to the hospital for the past 10 years and haven't been seriously ill, they simply decide they don't need health insurance.
How do health insurance companies win these kinds of people over? By offering them really cheap rates.
The idea of competition and offering cheap premiums to low-risk healthy people flies out the window when you have a law that mandates every single person buy health insurance.
>>713594953
It's not selfish ranting, you uneducated nigger.
Obesity alone in the US costs $210 BILLION with a fucking "B" EVERY YEAR and rises 5-8% EVERY YEAR.
stateofobesity.org/healthcare-costs-obesity/
That's ONE personal choice that people CHOOSE to neglect.
Smokers cost another $170 BILLION every year. AGAIN with a B.
https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/economics/econ_facts/
Together it's nearly half a TRILLION fucking dollars EVERY YEAR.
How about you educate yourself a little before you try to buck up like you know your dick from your asshole, kid.
Don't give me some sob story about "social concious" when dumbfucks can't stop chain smoking and stuffing their face with burgers. Obamacare is what, 1.4 Trillion dollar program? That means roughly 1/3 of insurance premiums go directly to funding THESE TWO PERSONAL LIFE CHOICES ALONE.
Take some goddamn responsibility or shut the fuck up when you bring the shit on yourselves. I don't give 2 fucks for some loser and I sure as fuck would appreciate the 40% reduction in my insurance premium if they all died off.
>>713595280
which is why we shouldnt have public education system as well. everyone should pay for their education,, and poor kids should just be left ignorant or have a huge bill for life.
>>713595467
this
>>713595891
and the tax dollars on cigarettes and food go to...
>>713583509
>/b/
>no age limit
>>713595848
Yeah but this has sort of been problematic in the past for this country. So while I agree with you in principle this is how it should work... it never seems to actually work that way.
I'd like to fix that, for myself, for you, and for everybody I can. Also if im forced to fund unhealthy people (through taxes and ER visits) i'd like to see if we can find a better way to do that.
I'm not saying the ACA is the answer, but surely there is SOMETHING we can do right?
>>713595467
Great post right here.
>>713596184
>I'm not saying the ACA is the answer, but surely there is SOMETHING we can do right?
There's something but I have no clue what, and I don't believe passing a law to force people to buy insurance is the answer.
>>713595245
It's not about "feels" it's about personal decisions and freedom, I know that escapes some faggot sporting a che t-shirt like he's hot shit and the first one to think of how "communism totally works dude if you try it my way."
Again, you sound retarded as all shit calling someone a freeloader when they're not receiving any benefit from the services they're not paying for.
Do you call kids who choose to buy a PS4 freeloaders just because the Wii exists and they're smart enough to know it's a shit-tier system they don't want? Of course not.
You sound like a real fucking clown to be honest, but continue proving how stupid you are by repeating freeloader some more because I honestly don't think you know what that means.
>>713595891
well I don't know why you still insist on weird ad hominem attacks. It just takes away from the validity of some of the things you are saying.
Covering ALL preexisting conditions is dangerous. Some people have them and its not their fault, but others have really caused the harm to themselves and we shouldn't necessarily be responsible for paying that burden.
That being said, you can still reform the system so it works better for everybody.
I think ultimately even though you are right on SOME points but are too sure of your own arguments to objectively look at anything or have real valuable input.
That and you seem to think kid is the word of the year or something.
>>713596235
Ok thats totally reasonable. I'm not sure I know if its the answer or not yet. I think the ACA itself just ended up being some sort baby that survived an attempted abortion. While it had some good intentions behind it, it isn't really helping to solve some of the biggest problems non poor people have with healthcare / insurance.
>>713585440
The ones who "did it to themselves". Yeah, it may be time to tighten things up. But those who really did the right things, and for whatever reason had a lapse in coverage, job loss, etc. and they got sick or their child got sick, what, fuck it, they die? Children? If it does come to that, do the profit over people conservafucks really think they will just passively watch their kids die? You know what will happen. Shit, there is a good chance the food stamp program will be cut dramatically, and it should for the fucking able-bodied adults who can work. People are protesting and rioting over the election. What do you think will happen when kids lives are at stake? It was, and is "too easy" for the wrong people to have children. Welfare moms actually getting pregnant to get more government money. wtf. Abortion MUST stay legal. Not fucking late-term. But for the country and the sake of an unwanted child. Too many people.
>>713596135
The "fat tax" has only BEEN CONSIDERED in 5 states out of 50 and hasn't been approved by any of those 5 yet.
Don't try to pretend like there's some imaginary burger tax when nothing of the sort exists.
Tobacco, alcohol, and other taxes don't even begin to touch healthcare, again you need to read up because you're uneducated as all fuck.
https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/tax-spending/the-wages-of-sin-taxes-the-true-cost-of-taxing-alcohol-tobacco-and-other-vices
It must be nice having your head crammed so far up your ass you literally think things exist that don't.
>>713596431
>While it had some good intentions behind it, it isn't really helping to solve some of the biggest problems non poor people have with healthcare / insurance.
I think the worst part about it is Democrats in power trying their best to keep it law and praising in despite the truth behind its success.
I just keep hearing Obama reading personal letters from single moms who wrote him a letter about how she cried when she finally got health insurance for the first time in her life.
>>713596583
I mean personally I think helping poor people helps our economy and country in general. However the ACA needs major changes. It just doesn't work for everybody. It sure helps poor people (or did, premiums are jumping due to some serious flaws in it and they will not be so happy come 2017), but it doesn't help OTHER people.
>>713581954
If they can get insurance changed to bring in competition to lower cost that will be great. Just requiring everyone have it without controlling cost is crazy, & leads to run away inflation and higher taxes.
>>713596667
>It sure helps poor people (or did, premiums are jumping due to some serious flaws in it
ACA was passed with a year long wait before the actual individual mandate took effect. Do you know what was happening during that year it was postponed?
Obama's reelection campaign. The Democrats knew rates would rise, they knew it would be unpopular, so they put it off until after the election.
ACA doesn't help poor people. It's a political move to show that they "support" the working poor despite actually supporting them with helpful legislation. See also the dumb bitch saying we have to pass it to see what's in it, because it's such a fucking huge piece of legislation it's so hard to decipher it.
>>713596330
Nigger, stop trying to save face when the numbers and stats are cited and right in front of your face. Rambling about "weird ad hominems" when the facts are right in front of your face just makes you look like a kid who heard your big brother say it a few times so you think you'll look cool if you do the same.
Liberals are experts at calling someone out and asking for actual numbers then when someone provides them they just keep their head up their ass and refuse to let go of their imaginary narrative. Not like your reaction is surprising at all.
>>713596914
Yep.
>>713596937
the least useful person in the thread right here. constantly declares himself the winner. make an argument and let the facts speak for themselves. this is coming from somebody who agrees with your point of view.
>>713597037
>>713596914
Sounds about right, but its hard to deny it didn't help poor people in the short term. Long term they are probably just as fucked.
Maybe they thought they would win the election and "fix it up"
>>713586419
You don't know shit you stupid fuck. Piece of shit.
>>713597251
Yeah, least useful person in the thread aka the only one who provided any sources or actual numbers whatsoever.
I guess you dickwads just wanted to jerk each other off with armchair pseudo-intellectualism and no actual figures. By all means, don't let me interrupt, you massive retard.
>>713592786
That's what conservatives do. It's not about making sense.
>>713597467
He's not wrong. As soon as you're documented and eligible for disability they mail you a medicaid card within a week or two. There's already a functioning system for disabilities so you fucktards trying to defend something like Obamacare with "these poor unfortunates" arguments clearly haven't done your fucking research at all.
>>713595467
Well said. Every /pol/tard should read this.
>>713597487
>Even Democrats realize what a shitshow their Obamacare plan is so their strategy has changed from defending the turd to trying to pin on the back of Republicans instead
Fuck me dude, you must be a scholar with a rebuttal like that. Clearly no bias at all.
>>713597775
Except that the pol tards don't care.
>>713595891
anon fact-nuked the thread and all the snowflakes scattered
kek
Poor, have no income at all and can't afford any healthcare plan? Well then you can't get ANY health insurance. There is no free health insurance. You do not get any tax credit if you can't afford to pay any health insurance premium. No one is paying for poor people's insurance because they don't even have any health insurance.
They don't give medicaid easily, they don't give medicare easily. Everything has been regulated to give as less money as possible. So if you're poor you're fucked. If you're sick you're fucked. If you're poor and sick, you'd double fucked.
No one is paying for the poor and the sick, they have no insurance and because of the pressures of the new health care legislation, free clinics have been shutting down or charging patients money plus things like medicaid have been giving out less in their budgets, so there is no free alternative.
The new healthcare legislation is a tragedy for the poor and the sick, even worse for the sick poor.
>>713597970
unfortunately he proceeded it with a bunch of off topic ranting and insulting so his actual valid good points seem to have gotten lost in all that.
People like him hurt those he agrees with like me as his good and valid points just get swept under the rug because he acted like an asshole.
Thanks for nothing.
>>713595766
obvious fake, underage B&
>>713596937
The moment you used ad hominem is the instant you lost the internet debate. YOU LOSE. Any argument you have made is immediately discarded because no one can see past you calling someone a fucking nigger you dumb nigger
>>713589166
well said.
