Question for Christians: If God loves us all equally, then why did he only send prophets down to a tiny region of the Middle East? If God truly loves everybody, why did he only let people in that tiny region of the Middle East learn how to achieve salvation, whilst condemning generation after generation of foreigners to eternal damnation? What did the Pacific Islanders (for example) do wrong? Why weren't they at least given a chance to discover the true faith?
>>712761237
bcus scam artists were already busy working other scams in their locals
>>712761237
Because when God came to the earth as Christ, he had to emerge from somewhere, so he had to choose. I think ! But I dont speak for him. Maybe Jews where the most spiritual people in the good way at this time, and now thats different.
>>712761916
Weakest shit of all time
>>712761916
Why did Israel get all the prophets though? Why did God never send prophets to other places, so that the pagans and idol worshippers there could realise the errors of their ways? If these people were spiritually unaware, why would an all-loving God just keep sending prophets to people who were already aware, without sending prophets to those who weren't?
>>712761237
people who have never been offered the choice to accept the free gift of salvation are not sent to hell just because they didn't accept a free gift which they never knew about. God handles that differently. So your question is moot. Not Moot, just moot.
>>712762152
He sent Jesus to the earth, not just Israel, and that is mentionned in the Bible. When Jesus died, he went to the dead and did the same for them, so they could reach God's kingdom too.
>>712762328
So what happened to these people who never heard the message? Did they go to heaven undeservingly, or did they go to some inferior afterlife (limbo?), also undeservingly, in one way or the other?
The people in the Old testament were retroactively saved... so it doesn't matter where the starting point was... Jesus covered eveyrone... Paul goes over the fact that it doesnt matter if we are jewish or not anymore...
>>712762426
But what about all the previous prophets? Why were the Jews given opportunities for salvation for thousands of millennia before Jesus, whilst the Zulu got nothing?
>>712762630
They had the opportunities as you said but none was able to accomplish the Moise's law. And thats why Jesus did it for us all ! So basically, other people didnt "need" prophets as Israelits were living it for us
>>712762998
What exactly do you mean by not needing prophets? Are you saying that all these people in remote lands were so morally perfect that sending prophets would have been unnecessary? And if not, why did God wait thousands of years before sending Jesus (who, as others have made clear, lacked the "national" character of the Old Testament prophets)? Why did so many people have to be damned?
Also, can anyone explain to me how Jesus is pretty much the only white dude from the middle east?
Whats up fellas. I'm a Baptist pastor getting my masters currently, I'll try to shine some light on my possible responses. First, God doesn't owe us anything. Saying that God can't love us because of where he put his prophets is assuming that our human understanding of love is equal to God's entire essence of love. In short, we will never understand why the way that he chose to reveal himself was so, but that is because we are finite in understanding. Some Calvinists would refute your claim that God loves everyone, and challenge that love does not necessarily mean the requirement of the possibility of salvation. God's love for a man in India who never hears the gospel is the mere fact that he was allowed to breathe, live, and experience life. These Calvinists would also argue that we are predetermined to live in this world how God has ordained things to be; this life, however twisted it may seem to us, is the life that God has determined in his foreknowledge to bring Him the most glory. I'll post another comment in response to the latter few questions in OP's post so you can respond to this comment.
>>712763326
very complicated way of saying "I dont know"
Alright. Baptist pastor here again, responding to the latter questions in OP's post. "What did the Pacific Islanders do wrong?" in our nature, we are inherently sinful. We are owed nothing at all. Calvinists would claim that humans are completely incapable of coming to Christ if God does not intercede (total depravity is this concept, google Christian TULIP if you are unaware or interested). So your question of what did the PI people, in your example, do wrong? Well, in short, they were human and had no ability to do other than wrong. Left to our own nature, as seen in Adam and Eve, we will always choose sin over good. In response to the last question, why they weren't given a chance, the easy answer is to say that this is God's plan in Calvinism and we will never understand. This way that God has ordained the world is the way that will glorify Him most, and we must understand that. But I accept that not all are Calvinist like myself, and will try to give an alternative explanation. Some believe that it is possible to believe in God through general revelation. Special revelation is different, and it explains Christ, the Bible, the Church, etc. General revelation is the revelation of God through nature, human kind (a sort of God-shaped hole in the heart, or a theological inclination of all mankind), and the history of the created world. Therefore, some would argue that a man on an unreached island in the Pacific could walk onto the shore, look in the sky, believe that only a loving God could have made this world, and still make it into heaven. The path is more difficult, with the individual being required to submit to God in judgment after death, but this is a very hypothetical view that isn't universally held. I can explain more if somebody wants.
>>712763237
What I mean by not needing prophets is simple : Prophets went to teach a nation because it's in their history, as you said they had several prophets and a lot of texts. Prophets came to announce lot of thing, like the coming of Jesus Christ, and the law. The law was given by god to be followed so people dont sin, because these commands are simple and rightfull. Nevertheless, absolutely no body was able to perform a lifetime without missing one of these commands. So, Jesus came, accomplished the law for the entire humanity, for the humans who wants him. For those who do not want, that's a shame, but they had the choice just to accept something really easy, not as hard and impossible as the law. Btw, the law was made for people to realise it is impossible for us to live without sin and so we all need Jesus. Quite easy but hard for me to explain as english is not my mothertongue. Hope I helped you !
You have to realise that christianity is not what people show you. It's really easy to be saved. Look around you, look at the politics, the free masons, and see the world going right through his last times. It will soon be all over. Very soon.
Answer: There is no god. People needed a way to explain natural events, stave off the fear of death, justify their power grabs, and get kids with a million questions they couldn't answer to shut the hell up and behave.
>>712763568
Its God, part of believing in him is accepting that we will not/can not know everything about Him or how he works. Also, Christians who claim to have all the answers are either ignorant or malicious, because even we do not claim that we understand entirely who God is.
>>712763867
My nigga
Prophets are nothing more then exceptional men or woman Turned into something more then they were meant to be. Jesus was a pretty cool dude that knew alot of parlor tricks OMG SON OF GOD. He traveled the world and saw alot of people suffering then asked the question Hey can we not be assholes to each other? Everyone was so impressed with the idea of common sense that they elevated him to godhood.
>>712764077
I refuse that.
>>712763326
If God is really this much of a dick by human standards, why would any human worship him?
>>712764506
Worship or burn. Don't think about the countless people who never asked to be created and will burn forever anyway. Just be glad you were arbitrarily spared for some glorious plan that requires billions of pounds of burning human flesh.
>>712764314
>>712764077
At least your viewpoints are consistent. I have plenty of reasons for opposing atheism, but I can't deny that it's a very comforting belief system (for want of a better way of putting it!). Atheism (combined with science) has a good answer for everything, even if that good answer isn't always the right answer.
>>712764690
>good answer for everything
Science doesn't claim to have answers to everything. Rather, it celebrates human endeavors in discovery in hopes of understanding the world and better the lives of fellow human beings. It doesn't just assume it has the answers and rest on its laurels.
>>712764506
This is one interpretation of scripture, and its definitely not the most popular. A Wesleyan/Arminian perspective would claim that God loves humanity so much that he gave his Son so that we all are given the freedom to choose to love Him. Forcing love is seen as unloving, and therefore humans have the opportunity to choose to love God or reject him. Calvinism usually turns people off if they aren't already Christians, and even still does sometimes.
i've welt the power of god as well as witnessed. We have our god right now bois Mcdonald Trump
>>712763867
Do you have any idea why Israel in particular was given prophet after prophet, whilst all these other people got nothing? It seems very strange that God should designate the Jews to be the only people deserving of his message for thousands of years, especially given all the times they rejected or corrupted it (as attested to in the Bible). That said, I like the last bit. I'd take it even further, and say that these "remote" peoples have been contacted by God (in fact, I believe they have even received prophets). In my opinion, that goes some of the way in explaining why certain myths and legends are shared by so many disparate cultures.
>>712764821
Science basically says: ''We don't know yet, but we're trying to find out.'' That's a pretty good answer if you ask me.
>>712764821
Not yet, no. But firstly, I believe that science is the best way of explaining many of the goings on in the world, although I agree (probably for different reasons) that some things can't really be explained. But as I intimated, good doesn't necessarily mean true. A good answer simply needs to be logically consistent (but not necessarily morally consistent).
>>712764825
That's the perspective I hear from most Christians, and it's close to what I believe. God loves us, and wants all of us to achieve salvation. However, what I don't understand is why, for so many millennia, non-Jews supposedly weren't even given a chance.
>>712765224
Someone earlier said "God doesn't owe us anything". I'd say nature doesn't owe us anything. But science is the best way we have of discovering some basic truths that can make life a little more tolerable. I would say science is life affirming, while religion is life denying. There's no point in trying to make life tolerable in religion because you're just going to die and live happily forever in another life.
>>712765427
Because when mankind sets off into space and colonizes millions of other worlds, those few non-jews will be a very tiny percentage. He probably did the best he could, it's not like he's omnipotent.
>>712764690
oh Mate I'm not atheist I'm Catholic the constant raping of little boys kinda made me rethink my church, My grandmother always told me to keep an open mind so I choose to except all religions as plausible even atheism but as I cannot prove or disprove god I have not taken a side, Playing dnd has kinda warped my idea on what a half god is so I refuse to beleive jesus was actually the son of god as he should have been a fucking sith lord then shooting lightning and shit at bitches like old school god but no some romans took him out like a bitch that means he can't have been the son of god. None of that he died for our sins bullshit I'm not drinking that cool aid anymore. Plain and simple if god is the bro tier guy that understands our faults he would know we sin like a mother fucker and work with us after death while I like the idea of hell for the worst of humanity, What I choose to beleive if god exists no one burns eternally and instead is mate to realise the horrors of their crimes after that maybe they get into haven I don't fucking know I'm not enlighted all I know is alot of interpretations contrict as a mother fucker and I choose to beleive that if god exists he's a chill bro that just wishes we would stop treating each other like shit ya he could stop it but why should he keep baby sitting us when we have had thousands of years to mature the fuck up.
>>712763880
I see. Whilst I don't agree with everything there, I do actually believe in a lot of it. God's law is more simple than we often think.
>>712765593
>romans took him out like a bitch that means he can't have been the son of god
>>712764506
Because that's the way humans have created their gods. If you don't like these, just create another one.
>>712765030
Good point in your latter few sentences. I had a professor (who I think is currently writing a book on this exact topic of the unreached people) who stated that perhaps all will get to heaven and will be met with God and asked a question; "Do you choose to spend praising me, or do you choose to spend eternity being praised?" In this instance, somebody who has only experienced a God inclination can still say,"Oh yeah, you're the God I felt on the island, I am willing to praise you for eternity." In regards to your earlier questions, I have some thoughts but no surefire answers (sorry for that!). I appreciate you for not taking it easy on me here :). In Calvinism, I can attest that God chose from the beginning of time an "elect" people who will (according to God's providence and will) experience some salvific interaction and enter heaven. Some people, albeit a sad thought, are predestined to hell. Why? Again, it boils down to what is fair to human standards is different than what is just in God's standards (plus, as I have mentioned before, we all technically deserve to be sent to hell because of our natural inclination to sin and our refusal to turn to Him without His intervention). The Israelites in general can be understood as a people of the elect, but also a people who were devastatingly indicative of the future of mankind. While the Israelites were literally walking through the desert with God, they still sinned against him, made idols, etc. In essence, the Jews were not the only people deserving of his message (because we can tell that they did a shite job of following it!), but they were the people who were determined to best be able to preserve the religion in a way that would bring most glory to God. I could say in any other variation, the people may have done worse than the Israelites (hard to imagine really), which could have led to a complete extinction of the Jewish tradition altogether. I hope this is palpable, I can always rephrase.
Sorry guys! BP here and I'm trying to post with as much content as often as I can but y'all ask good questions. I didn't follow down the earlier trail of prophets etc so I can't add much there.
>>712766041
As a god myself, I will pray that your soul finds whatever it is you're looking for after you stop breathing.
Alright guys, same Baptist pastor here, looks like the conversation has died down a bit. I'm going to take a shower and play some League of Legends. Feel free to add me on League, my name is Parkland, and we can duo or you can just call me a faggot or something. Cheers!
>>712766041
Sir i'm going to have to ask you to calm down
>>712761237
>Q. Why didn't imaginary yahweh pull another mud+magic=Adam trick to make himself a jesus... instead of sending his pet rape-ghost to fuck a jesus into some poor carpenter's young wife?
Christian mythology makes no sense...
>>712761237
Well, according to Mormons, God sent prophets to North America, and even Christ himself came here after He ascended to Heaven in your tiny portion of the Middle East.
Can we also talk about the fact that fucking Jews can talk to lions? How the fuck did that shit work the Christians got eaten by lions but the fucking jews just talk to them.
>>712767029
Not Jews in plural, but just a single Jew.
Cthulhu Mythos makes more sense than Yahweh Mythos... and it's more readable.
>>712761237
>whilst condemning generation after generation of foreigners to eternal damnation?
I know this is a troll but that's not how it works. If you haven't heard about Jesus you're not liable for not believing in him, just like the patriarchs or cavemen aren't in hell for not knowing about Jesus.
It IS unjust that one should be born in a christian nation and follow the "right" path purely because that's all they know, while someone born in the middle east today would go to hell for following the "wrong" religion, even though both were just doing what their particular society expected.
>>712767108
Are you a jew? Have you tried talking to a lion what if hitler killed the jews because of a fear of large predatory cats and he knew the jews would turn them agaist him! Did you ever think of that anon I think not.
>>712766041
You actually make some very good points there. Your point about those unreached people at the gates of heaven is particularly intriguing. To me, what's in your heart matters more than public acts of worship and ritual. My religion has well-defined festivals, prayers and the suchlike too, and although I believe that all nations have at some point received divine revelation, I'm not so deluded that I think they're aware of the "right" prayers for example. Likewise, as you said, even if these people never got to read the Bible, they could still have had religious encounters. I feel that if someone's heart was in the right place, and he did his best to love the One who created him and everything he holds dear, he'll probably do okay in the end.
>>712761237
It's a bullshit excuse for you not to seek out God. The scriptures say He won't end everything until the gospel has been preached everywhere in this modern age. The world doesn't end soon because that would mean insta-Hell for people who haven't yet gotten to know Christ or heard the gospel. God loves us equally, even enough to give us free will to not force us to conform to His will. But if you conform to His will, there will be a paradise for you in the end. If you choose to go the opposite of God's will, there will be damnation awaiting you.
And he sent prophets out to lands where paganism ran rampant. Most of those prophets were killed. Some were successful in delivering God's message.
>>712766995
because the messiah was to be born, in bethlehem (city of david), of a virgin.
even though the original text means "young woman" rather than "virgin", which is due to the greek translation for virgin/young woman being the same word.
either way, the whole point is jesus is a fully human and subject to the same desires, temptations, and struggles as a regular person. and god now has a system for making new humans, in genesis he only had mud to work with. if he were born from mud he'd be too separated from the rest of humanity for people to relate to.
>>712766996
I'm not a Mormon or even a Christian, but that first bit is one (often-ridiculed) Mormon belief that my religion actually shares. Whilst I don't believe that Hebrews ever migrated to America, I do believe that Native American tribes had prophets of their own, who shared God's message with them. As I said in an earlier post, I think this accounts for the similarity between many cycles of myths and legends.
>>712767321
I wouldn't think it's quite that simple. There's plenty of opportunities to follow the wrong path in Christian nations, especially as just calling yourself a Christian does not automatically make you one. Likewise, Christianity exists all over the globe, a fair number of the people fleeing ISIS in its onset were Iraqi Christians. Christ was very clear that following him would not always be easy, and that in many cases society would be against it (ie: Muslim normative societies). That said, Christianity is not unknown there, so unfortunately they do have culpability still.
>>712767621
I agree with the general thread of your last paragraph, that prophets have been to other pagan lands. We just don't know their names. As for the first paragraph, I'm not so much talking about today, as I am talking about those born before Jesus, and those born in after Jesus but in situations which meant they could never hear of him.
>>712765508
>There's no point in trying to make life tolerable in religion because you're just going to die and live happily forever in another life.
buddhism believes your actions continue to affect the world around you after "you" are dead, and the idea of "you" is bunk to begin with, and your karma affects the next life.
also jesus taught his followers to love everyone and be cool, to commune openly and freely without regard for class or status, that the kingdom of god is "within you", etc. all pretty life affirming, even if some christians today think "fuck humanity and the planet i'm getting off this shitty rock and spending eternity with jesus"
science doesn't affirm or deny life, it just explains how the universe operates.
>>712767988
Christians are a vast minority in Iraq. Who do you think has a better chance of finding out about and worshipping Jesus, someone born in the Bible Belt or someone born in Iran or China? How is it fair that one man should have to fight against the will of his family, society, and culture to become a christian outcast while the other one is dragged to church by his parents kicking and screaming yet goes to heaven because he did what his society expected and helped him fit in?
>>712767321
So what happened to people born in lands which (as far as we can tell from the Bible) never received divine revelation (especially before Jesus)? Did they get to enter heaven despite worshipping gods of wood and stone? Or were they simply expected to "know" that wood and stone were not worthy of worship, despite nobody ever having told them that?
Bumping for interest.
>>712767988
>Christianity is not unknown there
Right, but it is presented in such a way as to seem repugnant, so why would your average Iraqi kids flock to it?
>>712768445
beats me, but I think most christians would believe god is lenient and merciful.
the patriarchs went to sheol because heaven and hell didn't exist as concepts yet. heathen idol-worshippers are just expected to know better I guess, and live a moral life.
the honest answer is it's a fucking muddled mess because none of this makes sense when you think about it too deeply. it was addressed to jews then expanded to gentiles and no one thought about what some rock-worshipper in australia and his destiny.
>>712769235
OP still here. Not a Christian so I can't exactly answer that one. But I do believe that those who have been persecuted for their religion will enjoy some leniency from God. As I said in an earlier post, what's in your heart matters more than performing all the right ceremonies.
>>712769557
>>712768445
according to the catechism of the catholic church:
>"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation"
which is still pretty vague. sure they can abstain from murder and rape, but what if they worship other gods? or eat shellfish? how much of his will must be obeyed when you lack the cleansing blood of jesus?
>>712763568
Exactly
>>712761237
because Jews are the chose people. why bother with anyone else?
>>712765593
interesting underrated post
>>712769557
Exactly. It's easy to explain this from an atheistic point of view (I don't know what religion, if any, you follow), but slightly harder from a Jewish point of view, and extremely hard from a Christian point of view. My religion actually has a very simple answer to this question, but I'm genuinely interested in the justifications of others (especially Christians, as I said).
>>712761237
so instead of the "islam is piece" "islam for all" bullshit threads we now get anti christianity threads,nice.
>>712769996
>I don't know what religion, if any, you follow
raised baptist, atheist by high school, by college I was into contemplative christianity and eastern religion. I'd call myself ignostic if it didn't sound so pretentious, mostly I don't bother with labels and my interest in religion is mostly academic.
what is your religion and its answer to the question?
>>712769825
The Catholic stance sounds nice, although I'm not sure how much of a Biblical basis it has. It is rather close to what I believe though. God knows what we're thinking. A sincere, God-fearing person who for whatever reason can't fast and feast as God desires is still better than a hypocrite who follows rituals but doesn't really care.
>>712770157
>now
yeah because /b/ was definitely a bunch of baptists with a distaste for atheism before november 2016
>>712770220
it has a biblical basis, you can find the verses but basically they amount to "god is present in the world around you so you should have some basic, innate knowledge of his existence and workings"
>>712765224
That's a lot better than christians can do!
>>712770343
General revelation, as that dude above said in his long ass posts
>>712765561
Lmfao!!
>>712767635
...cuz that shit makes sense, given an all powerful god that knows what's going to happen and can make things happen.
>>712770473
>implying christians didn't come up with the big bang theory etc
science and religion are not mutually exclusive
If jesus was god... who the fuck was he talking to on the cross?
Musing out loud?
What died to become the holy rape-ghost? A holy rapist from a story we missed?
>>712770580
the bit about jesus being a relatable human who wasn't born out of a bog with no human family definitely makes sense, though of course the real answer is jesus was just a regular dude who got wise and his followers began claiming he was divine.
>>712770188
You're the first person to ask that. Amazing to see seventy-odd posts without a single person considering such a fundamental question. Since you ask, I'm a Muslim. The Quran states that there have been many other prophets in the past, beyond those mentioned by name. Every nation is believed to have received at least one prophet. A very popular tradition says that there have been 124,000 prophets, although we can't know for certain, and personally (and this is just me - lots of my supposed "brothers" in the faith would chop my head of for this), I'm not a big fan of ahadith ("hadiths") that haven't been rigorously authenticated. Still, it's the best guess we've got, and it isn't illogical and doesn't contradict the Quran or known historical facts (unlike some sadly all-too popular ahadith... e.g. "that" Ayesha one).
>>712761237
nigger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODMUbe7J-I&t
>>712761237
If God is omnipotent and fully ethical then why is there evil lol
>>712770935
*off, not of.
>>712770821
it's like the executive and judicial branches of government communicating. all three branches are the same government, and are interrelated, but remain distinct.
the holy ghost isn't a human soul. ghost=spirit, just depends on translation. the jews also have ideas about the spirit of god (Ruach).
Maybe everyone should just worry about their own belief and their own belief only. Nobody knows what happens when you die. It honestly doesn't matter. Just live your life and don't worry about it.
>>712770935
interesting. I know many christians interpret the bible literally, so like muslims they believe that man has known about god directly since adam, but they do not have the same belief in prophets visiting all nations, in their worldview entire societies could have moved away from god and there is no guarantee god will send anyone to set them back on course.
I do have to wonder how Allah's envoy to the vikings fared...
>>712761237
Everyone was given the chance through missionary work. You didn't have to see the ressurection first hand to be saved.
>>712770821
We hear shit about the God-head all the time, and most are shit at explaining it. It comes down to this: Somewhere in the beginning, God was lonely as fuck, so he made a "female": the holy spirit. Then he was tired of her shit and needed a bro, the first jew: Adam. Then he saw that his bro was thirsty and not into that bestiality shit, so he made a jew chick for his. While this shit was happenin in the garden, us regular guys and girls were humpin like crazy, blah, blah, fuckin blah, Adam is chillin with us. We all mix up and eventually Noah, blah, blah, blah....you get the message. So by the New Testament, and after giving his original bros a shit load of chances to chill with him in heaven, God gets tired of the Jews' shit. So he wants to make a messiah for everyone else. So we could chill with him. And to say fuck you to the Jews, he makes him Jewish: Jesus. He does this in a way that makes Mary still a virgin, and so he isn't cheating on the Holy spirit. It could be compared to him taking his DNA, and that DNA turning in to another person, but its still basically him. Like a clone-ish.
>>712771864
>in the beginning, God was lonely as fuck, so he made a "female": the holy spirit
>While this shit was happenin in the garden, us regular guys and girls were humpin like crazy
according to...?
>He does this in a way that makes Mary still a virgin, and so he isn't cheating on the Holy spirit
The holy spirits impregnates Mary, not the Father.
>>712771800
there are still uncontacted peoples on the planet. not just people who have never seen a missionary, but entire tribes who haven't encountered the outside world.
>>712761237
We are all judged according to our circumstances and what we know. "For to whom much is given, much will be required."
Those people knew nothing of God or christianity and so they will be judged depending on the good or evil of their actions, not according to gods law.
>>712771483
Kek. God wouldn't have sent an envoy to the Vikings in their golden age (since that was post-Mohammed, and we hold him to be the final prophet), but yeah, whoever they did get must be turning somersaults in his grave!
>>712772427
Although that said, I'm sure that the Prophet of South London had an even harder task!
>>712772427
>since that was post-Mohammed, and we hold him to be the final prophet
good point. still, if he is the final prophet, what about all the people since his ascension that hadn't heard about Islam? even today there are tribes who haven't had contact with the outside world.
>>712772440
I've seen it, what does that have to do with the implicit claim that missionaries have reached all corners of the earth?
>>712772355
“The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.”
Terry Pratchett
>>712772236
>according to...?
The bible, whether it's a mistake in translation or not, has God talking in either the third person, or to another person, besides I'd like to think he's getting some in Heaven. Also, it gets weird when the bible talks about the process of him making people, and the way it goes about it (especially how Cain got pussy half-way across the world, travelling) it's easy to assume shit was happening outside of the garden.
>The holy spirits impregnates Mary, not the Father.
I already said that the Holy Spirit was basically a chick version of God, but we can assume she gave his DNA to Mary, or her own (which is basically God's)
>>712772880
>The bible
so give me a verse...
>>712771864
At what point did this Mary give her consent to this 'sexual encounter' by ghost/spirit/yahweh?
Be good enough to kindly address the jury while giving your evidence...
>>712763568
Based
>>712772676
We believe that all nations have received prophets at some point in history (or pre-history, if they were illiterate). Even if the messages of these prophets became somewhat distorted over time, there's still goodness to be found. All the verses in the Quran about munafiqoun (hypocrites) should make perfectly clear that morality is about what goes on when you think nobody's watching, and that getting that right, and having your heart in the right place, is more important than coming to iftar with your folks every evening in Ramadan. Similar to what the Baptist bloke said earlier, there are clues out there for the baffled.
>>712772972
>so give me a verse...
Genesis 1:26
for both the third person thing, and the confusing part, because in Genesis 2, it talks about how Adam himself was made, ya know, after the whole blessing humans thing.
>>712773126
She was only 14 or so, so not even a person with real rights in the U.S.'s eyes....so she can't consent. Meaning: "Fuck you, I'm God, only the best, and most fresh womb for my son!"
>>712773467
Objection...
Sustained...
"By flying horse-goat-leopard-anchovie or by some other means?"
Your honor, give the witness time to answer....
>>712773579
We have a name fer that in this day n'age, sonny... yahweh is it?
What is that? Some kinda negro name, bwa?
>>712773931
SOMEBADAY SAY NIGGER!!!
I find it extremely selfish to think that human beings are exceptional enough to deserve the admiration of a God. Seriously, if we are Gods prized creations that entity severely fucked up. If on purpose, we are merely chess pieces in a sick game.
>>712768275 >>712769235
(1/2)
It's true Christians are a vast minority in the middle east, and it's likewise true that vast majorities will conform to the religious bent of their cultural normative. But realistically most if not all people in the middle east will have at least heard of Christianity, as both religions have a history long intertwined. Worship and complacency, though, are both choices, and while in the middle east there are indeed few if any reasons for the average person to convert, choosing to follow the societal standard is a choice, however thoughtless.
Now, your other point: is it fair? No. I won't waste time arguing it's fair, because the world is not a fair place, and it obviously isn't. But there are a few things to consider. First, God is a just and fair judge, in your example the outcast would be greatly rewarded, while the spoiled man may be in for a nasty surprise, again, calling yourself a Christian is not the same as truly being one. Going to church, taking communion, these are religious traditions and serve a purpose, but are not what makes a Christian. Now, going back to God as just, God is omniscient, and exists outside of time. Being omniscient and omnipresent God knows not only what we have done but exactly why we have done it, a fairer judge of your actions you couldn't hope for.
>>712774462
(2/2)
What's more, God knows what we are going to do before we have even been born. It would be possible, being also omnipotent, to ensure that we always chose to follow him, to present us at any inkling of wrongdoing the exact thing that would push us back onto the right path, but that is not free will. It may have the illusion of free will on the surface, but in truth, unless we are truly allowed to ere, it would never be real free will. This is important because God is able to work with people from the highest order of nation-building and international discourse, all the way down to walking with us through our lives individually. Christians hold that humans will naturally tend towards evil, and that it is possible for this inclination to lead large groups to do evil without thinking of it as such, especially when you consider how our thinking is deeply subject to societal feedback loops, wherein the group influences the individual influences the group. In this context that our societies are both born of us and birth us, an unfair scenario can exist, even flourish, because to deny it denies human freedom of will on a mass scale, but the individual is still culpable for their choices and actions within the confines of their individual existence.
Is that choice easy, no, is it fair society forces people to make it, no, but God likewise will not turn his back on those who do. The act of becoming a Christian is as simple as accepting Christ and repenting one's sins, the act of living true to that choice, we are told by Christ, is very difficult, and often frought with consequences.
A third point, Christians are tasked with spreading the word, and aiding both one another and new converts on the path of Christ, if there is a corner of the world where to become Christian is most difficult, perhaps that is where the Christian is most fervently supposed to be.
>>712774243
The thing is, God made us to be exceptional, according to the bible that is, and "we" fucked it up almost immediately, but because we were supposed to be his "masterpiece" he kept trying to fix us, over and over and over and over...
>>712774243
we are made in his image
>>712774823
Which image exactly? White? Black? Chinese? Aboriginal? Inuit? Neanderthal?
>>712774545
I would say we are exceptional, from a totally objective point of view (though I'm the Muslim guy B T W). No other species has built societies as complex as ours. No beast understands science like we do; in fact, no beast can even read or write. The only reason beast doesn't kill on as great a scale as man is due to our considerably greater understanding of technology. In terms of morality, we're the only ones with firmly codified laws which we've managed to get the majority to follow. As far as we know, we're also the only ones with clear, widely accepted visions of what an ideal world looks like. That's exceptional, just not perfect. There's a difference. And if you're religious (like I am), we're the only living things to explicitly know God. But some people aren't...
>>712762630
Jews got prophets because they were aware of God. As they knew He is true, they could live with His law.
Now think that sb told you he is a prophet of Xolberg and he wants you to listen to him. Would you do this? I don't think so. God also didn't send prophets to people who don't seem to know Him because they won't understand the message
>>712775163
It's supposed to be general, like in general shape, easy to think he can change his, and ya know, a dash of evolution changes what we look like.
>>712774545
So it's a sick game confirmed. By definition God could have created us exceptional in the first place, all powerful, all knowing, yet that entity made the decision not too. Which means that God is playing a very sick game with humanity.
>>712775671
this
he is the one that supposedly created us in a flawed way, so we have to do exactly as he said to fix our "flaws" or else we burn in hell
>>712775671
And too add, or God is not a God but maybe an advanced alien species or something.
>>712775469
Exactly, I couldn't say it any better myself. But I have to ask, because I'm a tad lazy to get the Quran, and google is sorta racist, how do you go to Heaven if your a Muslim? Not the "Yur a Muslim so u can't go to mah heaven ya Sandigger" but, what are the qualification in Islam's eyes?
>>712775671
In a way, but isn't the Sims fun?
>>712761237
>>712775879
Yeah, this is the argument that shuts down most religious debates. You either have to concede that God is an asshole or the entity is not all powerful and therefore not God.
>>712776260
/thread
>>712776260
It's more like we were created perfect and chose to become flawed. The act of giving us free will was necessary for a real relationship, but it perhaps made us choosing to go against god inevitable
>>712761237
>>712775557
>evolution
So he created us, and then evolution happened?
>>712776260
I'm not going to act like God isn't an asshole, because I'm an asshole, at least, and we were created in his image.
>>712776611
Why would the God give us free will knowing that we would use it to become flawed? He is all knowing right?
>>712776773
See you can't have both my friend
>>712776718
As a Christian I 100% agree with this post
>>712776725
I don't believe in full on "We all come from a common ancestor" type evolution. More of a non-racist eugenics kinda thing.
>>712776773
Same reason he created everything in the first place: He got bored.
>>712761237
At the time the population was fairly dense there
It makes perfect sense if you wanted to broadcast a message you do it at one of most densly populated area along with most religious
Asia worshipped snakes
India worshipped snakes
Africa worshipped snakes (egypt)
America was peaceful except for south america with those jungle snake worshippers
Does that answer your question
I believe the only reason why god didn't make more jesuses was because it didn't matter
They would probably get sacrificed or crucified like jesus because other continents still believed in snakes hard core and egypt was right next to anti snake
Its like spot to be bro
>>712776718
agreed
>>712776998
Which is why he is an asshole then, and playing games
>>712776718
I agree with this
>>712776773
Of course He knew, but he made us with free will anyways because to not give us free will would make us a non-entity. Little robots that just do what they're told. We were created to have a relationship with the divine, you can't really have a relationship with a calculator.
>>712777171
I wrote this
>>712776767
>>712777286
No we would be Gods ourselves, we would be colleagues rather than subjects
>>712777286
God has free will and is not flawed. God could have created man like that, because he is all knowing, all powerful, and all present. God did not, God is a bitch.
>>712777421
An entity without free will isn't really a God, I would think. If it doesn't even have the power to choose, it's just a powerful tool.
>>712777858
Read this that I wrote
712776842
>>712777858
Shit try that again read this
<<712777842
>>712776126
There are different interpretations of what you have to do. All of them involve being a moral person, from the point of view of whatever sect is speaking of course. According to the Quran itself, most serious sin of all is "shirk" (nothing to do with shirking; it comes from an Arabic root associated with sharing, and basically means ascribing partners, especially in worship, to God). The mushrikoun (those who commit shirk) will definitely go to hell unless they repent sincerely. Thing is though, we haven't actually made up our minds on what is and isn't shirk. Any Muslim will be able to tell you that worshipping idols is shirk. But visiting the shrine of (for example) Imam Hussein? Hmmm... As a Shi'a, I don't think so, but if you're a Wahhabi, that's shirk too.
There's also the similar issue of "kufr", which is basically any action that renders one's belief in Islam invalid. It's complex, but the general consensus is that secular crimes (such as murder) are only kufr if you claim that God condones them, or if you claim that the fact that God has forbidden them is unimportant. Similarly, being a non-Muslim per se doesn't disqualify you, but if you consciously reject Islam for something else, that does.
Still, the basic rules on morality apply. The Biblical exhortations not to kill without a just cause and to give generously to the poor (for example) are in the Quran, too. The Quran also makes perfectly clear that the Biblical prophets were legitimate, and that other God-fearing people (particularly Jews and Christians), though misguided, can still get into heaven.
TL DR: It's complex, and it varies from sect to sect, but Biblical and humanist ideas of morality generally hold true in Islam. Stick to what we generally consider as right, and love the one, omnipotent God who created you, and you'll probably be okay. Consciously rejecting Islam, though, is still a problem.
>>712778132
I give up
>>712778132
here...i'm not sure if you were joking or not
>>712777842
I find it funny that the church has perverted the religion to such a degree that nobody even knows something simple like what an angel looks like. They always just say its a dude with wings. Even if you praise Jebus every day and go to church every week for your entire life, you still would technically not be a christian and would never get into heaven. Pic related, an actual angel.
>>712761237
If you don't know about Christ you still get into heaven if you've lead a good life. Secondly at the time the middle east was the cradle of civilization so it's only logical that God sent prophets there
ju
>>712761237
The correct question to ask Christians would be "Why do you ever hold a belief despite a lack of verifiable evidence?"
you say that and yet here we are; discussing it nonetheless. Our conversation broadcast to some 60% of the world
>>712778392
they would say :show me some evidence thet it doesnt belief
>>712778392
monothiesm is a totally reasonable outcome to come to logically if you've explored any philosophy. Couple that with the revelation the jews were given and shit here we are
>>712778663
Well that would be fucking stupid because you cannot prove a negative. This is a well known and documented logical fallacy and violates the concept of philosophical burden of evidence.
>>712778908
Okay then show me the "logic" in the form of a flow-chart of psuedo-code. Oh wait you can't because you are full of shit you fucking retard.
>>712778995
*flow-chart or psuedo-code
>>712761237
It's because jews are good at marketing and fooling goodwilling people, both christianity and Islam are Judaism made for export.
>>712778174
I like the word shirk, just had to say that. But aside from that those seem like pretty straight foreword rules, and it seems like any other religion with its sects. I've always through of the religions like this:
Judaism = Dr. Pibb
Christianity = Pibb Zero
Islam = Pibb Extra
that is in the way of it's dealing with "sinners". Is it accurate?
>>712778995
jews were segregated by god as his people; their texts show the acts of their god acting to bring them to isreal chronicling their journey; forming their law and raising prophets heralding the one to come; Jesus Christ who ended up forming a church on his apostle Peter before being crucified by the Jewish Pharisees as a sort of coup against God in their pride.
>>712779216
“People are stupid. They will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true.”
-Terry Goodkind
>>712761237
This is a funny question if you think about it. Literally wherever and whenever God would appear, this would be the response: why did God appear in 1425 in Africa?!? why not today in my kitchen?
It's that dull a question.
>>712779390
This is not logic. This is a series of unverifiable assertions.
I think it's because Jesus didn't come to start a new religion, but he was there to fulfill the prophesies from the old testament, which was only known in the middle East.
>>712779216
I don't think you know much about Judaism, Christianity or islam. Otherwise you'd see the rich dichotomy between judaism/christianity and also the obvious falseness of islam
>>712777842
>>712777858 here
Man was not created with flaw, the ABILITY to choose against God is not inherently a flaw, rather the ACT of choosing against God invited flaw onto mankind. A perfect thing, being tarnished.
That we had the choice to do this was necessary for our free will, itself necessary for a real CHOSEN relationship with God
>>712763250
How do you know what he looks like?
>>712779654
You realize islam and christianity are very similar, right?
>>712780287
In a lot of superficial ways, maybe, but the cores are very different.
Christianity is centered around the belief that Christ was fully God and fully human, and that by being so, and living a sinless life, was the only human able to sacrifice himself for the sins of mankind.
Further, that accepting that sacrifice is the ONLY path to heaven, and that none shall enter on works alone.
As I understand it Islam teaches that Christ was merely a prophet.
>>712763250
People depicted on this mosaic found in an ancient synagogue in Israel look pretty white
>>712780689
Right, because blood sacrifice is the sign of a true ethical religion..
>>712779654
You can say what you want but you still pretty much share the same beliefs as muslims
>>712778908
Since you don't understand what logic here, please look at this flowchart which shows logically why it is impossible for any entity (including God) to be omnipotent.
