What's acid or shrooms like? I've been wanting to do
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
What's acid or shrooms like? I've been wanting to do them and nobody I know has so I'd like to have some clue on what to do and what it'll be like?
ITT: psychedelic stories/tips
>>709963255
The thing about psychedelics is that you seem to forget exactly what it's like afterwards. I've tripped a hundred times or more and each time I've gotten to the peak and realized I've forgotten about what it's really like.
Been doing lsd for around five years now. Always get my hands on 150ug tabs and am at the point where it sucks group tripping. For me to get as rocked as my mates I need to take at least three of em. Skip the shrooma and Lucy and go straight to DMT anon. That's where the psychedelic journey begins.
>>709963255
ive done shrooms a few times and everyone always embellishes the effects of psychedelics to the point when i did them it was underwhelming
>>709963255
shrooms tend to be less visual. the walls breath and colors can be different. LSD tends to be more fractally and patern based.
the thing that you cant convey is how it changes the pattern of thought. thoughts are more of a stream or flow rather than individual things.
>>709963567
>says his trips were underwhelming
>do moar faggot
>>709963684
i done 14 grams dry for my highest dose
what i meant by underwhelming is its not how other people tell you not that it was weak
imo it is better you just do them without listening to other peoples experiences
>i did shrooms once when I was 14. I stole them from my dad. It was only 3 or 4 though. He found out mid trip but then I admitted to him I tried to kill myself and we actually sat down and talked about it. Hee told me about ehen he was my age he was binge drinking to escape his problems and told me how to get over my depression. It was pretty emotionally intense, but after that we watched cartoons and had some popcorn and the rest of the trip went well.
>>709963505
Exaplin DMT, my friend told me it's the feeling of both dying and being born all in 5 minutes then it's over. Sounds far fetched plus she only read that online so she doesn't know
>>709963846
That sounds like a great time overall
>>709964117
It was
>>709963255
>>709963664
Psychedelics always remind me of how limited my actual perceptual experiences are, even when sober. once you do a drug like that, you realize that you have much less control over your brain than you thought. anon's right about thoughts being more like a process than things. LSD always makes me confused about what is underneath my apparently fragile consciousness. definitely an experience worth exploring. it can be uncomfortabe though to say the least. have fun OP i recommend it.
keep close friends around you for your first few times
It's great. Many stoners say they like it better than weed even.
My experiences aren't amazing personally, but my first bad trip actually helped me get over my fear of death, and the what ifs of the afterlife.
ACID IS 90% MENTAL FUCK AND 10% THOSE VISUALS YOU THINK IT WOULD BE LIKE. REMEMBER ONE THING GOING IN: DONT GET STUCK IN THE LOOP.
>>709964599
I'd definitely keep people I trust with me, how long does a trip on acid usually last? Or does it verie?
listening to music on acid is the best, sex is great too.
>>709964806
Wut
Should I definitely stay indoors or is being outside fine? I'll probably start out indoors tho
>>709964934
YOU WILL KNOW AFTER YOU TRY... DON'T BE SCARED THO HOMIE IT AINT THAT BAD. IT WON'T LAST FOREVER EVEN THOUGH DURING THE TRIP IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'LL NEVER COME BACK TO SANITY
It's great, one of the best experiences of my life. Just picked these tabs up yesterday and Gonna trip this weekend with some friends should be a great time.
>>709964934
He's right. I was pretty disappointed by the lack of visuals, you still get them but you need to take more. The mental/physical feeling makes up for it though.
>>709965025
Outdoors is the best, just start off with 1 tab. You probably won't even trip out that hard, you'll just get a feel for the drug. Indoors might be better for your first time, but I guarantee you that after that you'll want to do it outside next time.
>>709965139
So I should just try to remember it will wear off no matter how bad it may turn out?
>>709964840
the higher the dose the longer it lasts. a moderate dose should last 10-12 hours. take it in the morning cuz it sucks to trip when your sleepy but cant relax. when you take bigger doses they will start to approach 16-20 hours. it makes normal everyday experiences feel completely new and refreshing. go for a walk and think about something new with someone. LSD makes you very sensitive to feelings and ideas. your whole experience as a human will feel like its getting more and more vivid and inexplicable
>>709965025
I've done it outside once and was not ready. I live in chicago and did it at a beach and it was just too much. Definitely recommend doing it inside first before stepping outside because it can be very overwhelming
>>709965236
just remember that you took a drug and that things will make more sense when its over.
>>709965202
How many would I have to do for visuals?
I've taken LSD
You feel nauseous on the come up.
Contours of objects move and look rainbow.
Euphoria that comes and goes in waves of increasing intensity.
Take it early unless you want to stay up all night.
>>709965357
i feel like outside is better than inside, but only if its solitary. i hate being around strangers when im tripping
>>709965387
usually 1 tab is a good enough dose. the strength varies based on the chemist.
>>709964806
Enjoy the loop.
>>709963255
Basically OP, acid is like self induced SCHIZOPHRENIA + visual hallucinations for 12 hours. DURING the trip however time is not the same. Midway through it will feel like you've been tripping for millennia and you'll question if you'll ever be sane again many times throughout.
Me and my friend did 2 tabs of acid when we were 15.. I was tripping so hard I was convinced I was having Seizures every time I closed my eyes.. had a terrible trip and thought I was dying for 12 hours. Haven't done acid since.
>>709965555
FUCK THE LOOP THATS WORSE THAN LIMBO/PURGATORY... WORSE SHIT TO EVER FIND YOUR MIND IN...
>>709965387
the visuals can be the most charming thing about tripping. i always start to forget what things look like when im sober after a while. i start to believe that surfaces are supposed to ripple and form patterns. i love that idea even now
Try LSA if you cant find LSD it's pretty awesome. Kinda like injecting pure fucking happiness into your heart.
>>709963255
Terence McKenna aptly summed it up:
>It's a doorway out of history and into the wiring under the board in eternity.
>>709965458
Definitely agree with you that when the setting is right outside is way better but for your first time it may be a bit safer to do it inside until you get a feel of the drug
>>709963255
>ITT: psychedelic stories/tips
>>709963255
LSD is great as long as you aren't looping.
>>709965787
yah thats true. and its music is easier to listen to indoors. stay relaxed OP, dont try anything too exciting
>>709964599
This is very true
>>709964806
>>709965139
>>709965693
CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL
>>709965387
If you want visuals do shrooms instead. People are always horny over acid for some reason, but shrooms are superior. Taking acid first, though, can make for a pretty goddamn amazing shrooms trip.
>>709965850
i feel like the looping is normal and happens pretty much every time i do acid. all i can do is try to manage it and change my environment a little bit to refresh my mindset a little bit. it pretty much always works well enough
>>709963255
and do you know where one might aquire one of these "shrooms"?
LISTEN TO CLASSICAL MUSIC ON IT. I REPEAT: LISTEN TO CLASSICAL MUSIC. IT WILL LITERALLY TAKE YOUR BREATH AWAY!!!!
>>709966038
what is looping tho?
>>709965693
The loop sucks. I sat there for like 2 hours with my brain saying nothing but this:
>"Solutions to problems that don't exist"
Fuck me.
>>709965680
I also went in a loop going from thinking "I'm bouta go smoke this blunt" to rolling around in my bed tripping for like an hour
>>709966067
No joke. This is a great idea. Related: My professional cellist girlfriend made me watch Fantasia 2000 one night high on shrooms. Well fucking worth it.
>>709966038
Its why i quit psychedelics. I found that i like being grounded more than lifted. Enter heroin... Mmmmmm heroin :)
>>709966132
Looping is like a circlular chains of thoughts that SOME HOW always leads you to the same thought you began with. Someone expand on this
My first acid trip
>be me 14
>living with bro and parents
>friend gives me acid to try out
>put it on my tongue
>lay down on bed
>start listening to some ambient music
>fall asleep
>have weird ass dream about god
>wake up
>I look down and I see just a straight glowing robe on me
>wut.jpg
>dog is in room with me
>dog has a beard
>dog starts speaking
>dog says he is jesus christ and I am his father
>I believe it
>go downstairs
>mom watching some T.V. show
>she says how was your nap
>I blurt out "HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO GOD LIKE THAT
>she gives me a weird look
>I yell again "ILL LIGHTNING BOLT YOU MOTHERFUCKER I SWEAR
>run upstairs
>pass out half way up
>wake up in hospital
>apparently acid was laced with something
>todaywasagoodday.png
>>709966226
I watched 2001 a space oddessey by myself and damn... It was a sensory overload...
>>709966132
its when you get stuck in a kind of mental paradox where Thought-A causes Feeling-A, which causes Thought-B which causes Feeling-B, which causes thought-A again and it just loops. we do it all the time in our normal lives and dont even realize it. it happens much faster on psychedelics tho and in a more frantic style
>>709966438
Thats the most bullshit experience ever. GTFO of here with those lies
>>709966438
Top kek
>>709966366
>>709966563
Nailed it
>>709966563
looping isnt that bad until the moment you realize you're doing it. then its bad. just remember we're all looping all the time, on acid or not. the only difference is we usually have the luxury of being unaware of the fact. taking acid kind of makes it harder to remain unaware of it.
>>709966366
>>709966829
So is looping bad? Does it cause a bad trip or is it just a frustrating thing
>>709966042
Not shrooms, but I could mail you some acid if you wanted
>>709966963
its generally unpleasant to realize your thoughts dont exist
anyone else ever able to sleep right after peaking on lsd i dont like too but if im taking high doses and it lasts too long for my liking i just go to bed
>>709966366
Looping is like having a ring on that you constantly take off and put on your other hand and you CANNOT stop laughing out how hilarious that is until you take the ring off. As soon as it comes off you think oh a ring I'm guna pop this badboy on and bam youre stuck in it again. You continuously forget that it keeps happening. Me and my tripbro call it being stuck in a laugh loop because always remember. The ring is a key and they key is a ring if you want to get out simply take it off.
>me poor 2 lads been stuck'n the dreaded laugh loop since twelth mast..
>pitch the poor sods o'erboard itll be the best for 'em
>..ai i suppose so..
>as the captain and first mate pitched the two young deckhands overboard naught could be heard
>other than their meniacle laughter all the way down until they fell into the sea
>they say on cold nights if you put your ear up to the water you can make out the faintest sound of laughter amidst the ocean waves.
Dont put the ring on, if you can that is because it may already be on already.
>>709963255
one of the best things you can do on a trip is try to relax and clear your mind, and whatever you do, DON'T panic. it's like a roller coaster. once you strap in you're in for the ride. just sit back and enjoy it cause the more you freak out as you get to the top of that first hill the worse the rest of the ride will be
>>709967081
there is no "bad trip". there are difficult experiences all the time on acid, but its only a "bad trip" if you cant make significant meaning of it. if you take a moderate dose, you should be able to break the loops with a small mood change. or you can go deeper and see what lies at the center of your mind and try to see in between the loops. its your choice. there is no right or wrong thing to feel.
one time me my brother and some friends were all tripping at the house and my brother got caught in a loop for like 45 minutes once its all said and done he said he kept waking up in the yard and doing the same things over and over again not sure what brought him out of it though still funny hes the only one thus far to get stuck
>>709963255
Done Shrooms, LSA, LSD...
Shrooms were crazy visual and absolute mind fuckery, like talking to your buddy telepathically kinda shit.
LSA is like 1-1 comparable to shrooms visually the first time you do it, but it takes a long time to kick in and kinda makes you feel sick.
LSD is by far my favorite psychedelic. I did 2 tabs with a Bernie on them last weekend. Was very nice. Was not overly visual, you can like handle yourself physically and like go out, on shrooms getting anything done was impossible. Also the visuals were very mild and fun, like patterns moving and shit breathing.
All three have visuals exactly as shown here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOmtVFQ3WF8
Where the hell do you guys buy this stuff?
How much does lsd cost for you guys? It's 10 a tab for my but my dealer does like bundle shit. I usually just buy 10 tabs for 70 dollars
>>709967310
amen. the only bad trip is the one you try fighting
>>709967419
Same here in the 317
>>709967398
>on shrooms getting anything done was impossible
i always feel melty and heavy as fuck on mushrooms
>>709963255
First time I did shrooms I did around 1.5 grams and not much happened. Second time I did around 4ish grams maybe and it was the worst experience of my life. I basically had to endure anxiety, paranoia and intense uneasiness for a solid 4 hours. It hit me like a complete wall about an hour after taking them. Couldnt stop sweating, thinking I was going to die, felt like my breathing wasn't working, etc etc. I was in a well known comfortable setting so I dont know if they were just bad shrooms or the way my body reacted to them, I don't know much about shrooms or their trips.
>>709965555
Are we just going to brush away these quads? Ok.
I've smoked on and off for years. Haven't touched anything else in fear of things going bad, as in having a bad trip, and then it sticking with me after it ends. I'm already decently fucked up mentally, I believe partially due to playing around with bud, but also just my mind in general.
>>709963255
No one knows. It is impossible to remember a trip. Those who claim it's like this or like that have never really tripped, they're just bsing
>>709967565
same here, honestly I could have drove on acid, shrooms are like very heavy but compared to LSD the afterglow of shrooms was more enjoyable cause I was just fine with how things were, as with acid i felt like I was a piece of shit
>>709963255
> be me growing shrooms
> eat an oz of them
> i dont believe in god
> met god
> turns out shes a woman
> start fading in and out of existance as sexy god lady wispers how pointless everything is and thats why its all ok
> go to hell
> throw up for three hours as i realize my life is like a mushroom short and meaningless
> wake up and quit job and start working in medical marijuana
> take shooms a week later and have awesome super enlightening sex with gf
do shrooms theyre good for you
>>709967853
You're fucking retarded, it's absolutely possible to remember a trip.
>>709965715
LSA made me sick. Not good. Not worth the vomiting. Just do LSD
>>709968006
see this is what i am talking about
>>709968006
i can totally see not remembering some happenings but some shit will always b blurry in memory
>>709963471
Well you're an idiot...
>>709968006
Everyone knows you can't really remember a triip. Anyway, prove me wrong.
>>709967955
i also always at some point in the trip think i pissed or shit myself
>>709967853
There's something to this. I forget lots of what happens on a given trip. I remember it later when I trip again. "Wait a minute...I've had this thought before..."
>>709967853
all my psychedelic experiences were the most memorable experiences of my life. do you fuc with the xans
>>709965555
o/ checked
>>709968185
i pissed myself on shrooms. took at least 30 minutes to successfully change my clothes
>>709968185
same here mostly just the feeling of pissing myself and its always funny when you think your piss is a totally a different color then it should be
>>709967177
This is a sexy sexy post
Has anyone done 1P-LSD?
Acid is impossible to find in my area and I wanna trip, might buy 1P. Any stories, advice, etc....
>>709968265
how is xan? ive heard conflicting shit. is it actually psychedelic?
>>709967686
It was me that said it.
I feel like I learn from the loops. It is a great way to see how your mind works.
>>709967987
hahahaaha
>>709966438
>friend gives me acid to try out
unlikely at 14
>>709968393
been looking into this as well. is it legal in the US? i've seen mixed things
>>709968461
It's a benzo. Have it on hand when doing psychedelics in case shit gets crazy.
>>709967853
you dont forget what the trip was like, you just forget how to get into your own shoes. i cant just get into my 5 year old mind anymore, im an adult and ive changed, so i'll never know what my childhood was really like, but i do remember it nonetheless. just because i cant access the same mindset at will doesnt mean i forgot the whole experience.
>>709968568
It is a legal Greg area, but it is a RC soooo as long as it is used for research you're fine.
>>709968461
not psychedlic at all it just makes your sloppy and gives you amnesia for a while
>>709966067
I recall listening to string music while smoking a few times. Like, full orchestra pieces. BEAUTIFUL. Actually listen to the vibrations, pick out certain instruments and each note. It makes me realize how much I take for granted with music at times. Not taking the time to ACTUALLY listen.
>>709967007
ok i live at 795 Prince Rupert Ave.
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R2K 1W6
Phone: 2046689304
my name is margerie millman
>>709968577
checked
also thanks for the advice, i always just rode out the bad trip
>>709968594
What I mean is. You don't remember the trip, your brain implants and creates false memories after the trip to fill in what it has forgotten. Like during a trip you might see things, but later after the trip it's completely different.
>>709968594
>took a half tab of acid while out camping
>played in the river like a 7yo kid again
I know what you mean
>>709963664
The fractals sound really fucking cool. I've never taken a psychedelic but one time when I was like 15 someone had a dab pen (I had almost no tolerance and no experience with oil) and I took like 7-8 big hits off it and my hands looked really fractal-ly and everything looked like I was viewing it from a flies eye. Cool shit
>>709968577
Why?
>>709968747
I have meaningful experiences from hard experiences/bad trips. It's ok and sometimes good to ride them out.
>>709967007
How can I contact you.
>>709968393
You in the US? If so I could probably mail you some actual LSD
>>709968728
i took one gram of shrooms and a dose of mdma and played around with synthesizers the whole time
the textures were orgasmic
lsd just about ruined my sex life i tripped with my gf and we fucked during our trip and it was the best thing ever and after that it just never felt the same again
anyone else experience this
>>709968891
Benzo's inhibit the effects of Major Psychedelics (Like Lysergide, but not THC) to an extent determined by dose. They do this so effectively that they are the #1 treatment against Bad Trips in European Emergency Medicine. They're so superior in this over Antipsychotics like Haloperidol that the latter's never given there.
>>709969072
How can I contact you?
>>709969072
agreed
>>709968968
Are you in the US?
>>709968901
i agree, you the best info from the scary ones.
I've only done acid twice and don't plan on doing it again. The first time was very tame, I think my tabs were fucked.
The second time, however, hit me a lot harder. My friends call it a bad trip, though that's not quite what I thought about it. The way I describe it is that I "saw infinity," which was both super scary and enlightening for me. I also scared the shit out of my friends when I walked up to them saying, "I think I understand suicide now." That was probably me feeling trapped in the loop and understanding that people who kill themselves probably feel like that all the time.
My friends are trying to get me to do shrooms with them sometime, but I really don't want to do that again.
>>709969120
Thanks for the tip
>>709969201
Yes. In Ky
>>709968741
Lol what are you doing? Come on man
>>709968160
The only trips that I cant remember mostly were the ones where I dosed extremely high(700 ug+). Id lay there in a vegetative/meditative state and basically dream while not actually asleep. Other than those dreamlike states, I remember every normally to moderately dosed acid trip.
>>709969339
>>709969146
[email protected]
I probably won't be able to reply to any messages until tomorrow morning
>>709969274
I also meant to mention that for about a year or two after that, whenever I'd get a feeling of deja vu, I'd have an anxiety attack and have to actively try to find something to do that I'd never done before, to know I'm not still tripping. I've gotten over that since, though.
>>709969456
I'll email you. Reply at earliest convenience
>>709968741
>>709967007 here.
Are you trying to dox someone or something?
>>709967311
I think that's pretty spot on, anon.
>>709965387
auditory hallucination are my favorite. You hear every little details with meaning and depth.
>>709967853
i always remember
done lots of psychs over the years, not old but old enough to literally have high-fived hunter s. thompson and enjoy the copious amounts of acid being made in a missile silo in kansas. Acid is head trip, mushrooms can be too, I grew them forever and it's no different than anything else, it's all about the amount and the strain. I've had acid and mescaline that that was super visual, and I've had them when they're super heady and not visual. Mushrooms I might be skewed on because I've always taken strong amounts so I at least know it's potential I guess. Tracers, headtrips and a bit more depending. Anyone who tell you they had a dog talk to them or saw something that looks like a cartoon is a fucking liar. The psychedelic google images thingie is the closest you'll ever get and that's still pretty cool. Most messed up I've ever been was after snorting multiple lines of pure mdma (stupidly so, thinking it wasn't working, should have known better but durrr) so multiple lines of mdma and then about a a good cup size of primordia mushrooms, (look it up). I saw nothing but color, literally lost with no concept of dimension. BREAK ON THROUGH. Anyways, a good trip is good for you.
>>709969630
no that is where i live
>>709969669
then try canned air it really fucks with your perception of sound
>>709969669
Auditory is the scariest... That's truly pushing into schizophrenia at that point.
>>709970281
>canned air
you probably meant nitrous oxide
that canned air shit will kill you
if you want something trippy for auditory look into dipt
Hey, pgp newbie here.
What kind of email do you use for creating a public key? Do I need to use the email that is registered, or just a random one?
>>709970572
I used to do those dumb hypnosis files. One time I was baked and I bumped my phone and it started playing one. I couldn't hear the words, but I could tell someone was trying to talk to me and it was making me freak the fuck out for like 10 minutes. I felt like a moron once I figured out what happened.
After reading all these great experiences I gotta say I can't help but want to break into the world of psychedelics... but don't have any friends or whomever I'd feel comfortable asking about this kind of thing. How did you guys go about getting your first tabs/grams/etc.?
>>709963255
First time green texting
>me and 3 other friends decide to do shrooms
>first time time so I did ≈2-2.5grams and my friends did 3-3.5
>took them behind an elementary school and made our way into a Tim's(coffee shop)
>it's been arouy 10 mins since we took them and we feel high and giggle alot
>one friend let's call him L cause his name starts with and L decides we should head into a forest
>we agree and we follow him
>on our way there we start tripping
>trees were diagonal and clouds looked amazing
>also got that feeling u get when your in a dream
>as we're walking there L was surpressing the shrooms which was a bad idea
>world starts to lose colour except for anything that was a bright colour which got amplified
>ambient sounds of the city got louder
>we finally reach the apartment building which had the forest behind it
>the only problem was that L was dysfunctional at this point and couldn't properly communicate with us
>he'd keep laughing and shouting "ah"
>he was also very wet everything that could secrete liquid on his face was doing so
>we're right in front of the forest and I'm asking L to take us inside to the bench he knew
>he'd keep laughing and panicking at the same time
>I then grabbed his hand and took him a couple steps inside the forest
>for some reason I liked being in nature then I didn't even care if there were bugs on me at that point
>mean while L is freaking it thinking it's raining he's jumping around as if the rain drops would burn him
>I feel rain drops too
>pull out phone and see if there are any drops landing on my phone to confirm if this is real or not
>no rain
>I also remember L throwing up
>my other friend is quite and the other one was fed up with L
>say fuck this and leave back to Tim's
>omw there I saw a sign that had a friendly looking clown on it
>as I stared it grew sharp teeth and a mean look then went back to normal
>was appreciating how cool the world around me was everything looked aesthetic af
>>709971893
Deep web
>>709970572
Have you ever listened to gatling gun sound while tripping on full blast. Real freaky
>>709963255
pure euphoria, if it's pure
>>709971893
Deep web. Then talked to weed dealers who knew people who could get psychedelics. Grew my own shrooms
>>709971893
Are you in the US? If so, see >>709969456
>>709963255
Read "The Doors of Perception" by Aldous Huxley for a clue about what acid and shrooms are like.
>>709968864
Dabbing hard for first time at 15? Damn son
>>709963846
Cool dad, it would be a terrible experience if he started getting mad at you mid trip
>>709971946
>make my way back into the coffe shop and went to the bathroom
>the bathroom was very the only colours I could see was yellow
>assumed yellow was the pee on the ground or germs idk
>sit on the toilet for 10 mins making sure I don't have to shit
>make my way oht y and call my friends and tell them to reach
>one was with L coming to me and the other was at home doing student loan registration wtf(he was trolling too hard to complete them)
>meet up with L and other friend and sit down by an intersection
>I kept my bus ticket in my shoes so I wouldnt lose them
>I take my shoes off and see the my ticket has been ripped up in perfect diaganol prices
>decide to throw it away don't even remember ripping it up
>we make our way into some park where I realized I gave my house keys to L so be could out them in his bag
>I ask for then back and be denies me ever giving them to him
>this goes on for 30 mins until I jump on his back and take my keys back
>I only had an hour and a half left to trip so I didn't wanna have any worries so I could enjoy myself
>realize I have change in my pocket
>didn't wanna worry about losing it so I threw it away
>just me L and my other friend talking or at least trying to communicate with each other
>other friend leaves cause L was being annoying
>now I'm stick with L and he wants to talk about marioand his love for games
>as L is lying down he shits himself
>get grossed out and decide to go home
>L denies it and gets up and says he has to shit and tells me to go around the corner
>decide to go home
>get home
>as I walk in I look at my dad in the living room and he look at me
>didn't realize how long I was starting him down but it felt long
>go to my room and listen to some kendrick
>the music video was playing in fast forward but the sound was at the normal speed
>the video still finishes with the song tho
>trip ends go to sleep
>>709968741
Woah
>>709967665
You just took too much probably, 4 is quite a bit for a newbie