Prove God doesn't exist >angry atheists >can't
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
Prove God doesn't exist
>angry atheists
>can't disprove God
Therefore, there is a God and you are blind if you don't have faith in the almighty deity. You fill the void in your life from drugs, sex and 4chin but with faith God guides us to the righteous path.
Thank you, brothers. May God guide you all. I welcome any atheist to challenge me but do so in a polite manner as I know you atheists are always filled with hatred and spread this to others like wildfire
Prove existence of god with solid undisputable facts
>>709764582
Burden of proof doesn't lie on atheists.
/thread
>>709764789
/thread
>>709764582
Here.
http://www.ditext.com/mackie/evil.html
Book it; done. Thanks for playing.
>>709764789
OP BTFO.
>>709764906
>>709764789
>>709764719
The universe can not operate itself without a divine being. Can a factory operate itself without people being there? No.
>>709764582
Hempel's raven.
>>709764789
The burden of proof lies on anyone who makes a claim to knowledge
Theists say God exists
Atheists say God does not exist
Both of these are claims to knowledge, therefore requiring evidence or proof
Agnostics on the other hand simply say that they don't know, so they don't have that burden.
>>709765075
Lol evil actually proves the existence of God, because without God, objective good and evil as such would not even exist so you couldn't even define them
Nihilist atheist here.
I can't prove god doesn't exist.
>>709765406
>the universe
>divine being
>a factory
>people in a factory
A divine being =/= people
You fucked your own analogy.
Who here does believe in god?
I am not asking for the purpose of starting up an argument.
>>709764582
Prove God exists
>checkmate nigger
Man created God.The Creator created Man.
>>709765930
I do, what's up?
>>709765718
Neither good nor evil exist. Do you think that Hitler's troops knew they were doing evil deeds? No, they throught they were doing good for their people. Good and evil are based on your viewpoint of the situation. Usually after the fact.
Also: god does not exist, please see: Dinosaurs. Evolution. Etc,etc.
>>709766061
This is along the vein of like, "Why doesn't god just pop by to prove he exists?" I know that the answer is generally that god wants us to have faith, and you believe faith is a good valuable thing to have on its own.
Let's say god appeared to everyone today, and let's say that everyone was sure that it wasn't a hoax, they knew it was really god they were looking at.
And he said, "I'm only doing this once, but here i am, i'm real."
Do you think that if god did that, it would ruin faith? Because like, for all people currently living, they don't feed faith, they've got proof, they've seen it with their own eyes.
But will we have lost something valuable in your opinion - faith?
>>709764582
Prove I'm not your biological father.
Prove Hitler did nothing right.
Prove that X didn't >Y<
Do you notice a pattern with having to prove negatives?
>>709764582
Singapore.
Want to fuck a little boy for $5? Singapore.
Want to fuck a little girl for $5? Singapore.
What to rape them both to death for $20 while tripping balls on hallucinogens and go home the next day scot free? Singapore.
Singpore proves god doesn't exist because if he did and he allows Singpaore to exist, he isn't god, he's the fucking devil.
>>709766556
but he's a damn good devil
k
>>709766494
Ya know, it is possible to prove a negative. It's just really hard. In some cases it is possibly impossible.
But for instance, "Prove that there isn't an elephant in the bathroom." You look in the bathroom. Elephant isn't in there.
Negative proved.
I'm not against the notion that we should avoid trying to prove a negative, it's just that i want to point out that it isn't really always impossible to prove a negative.
>>709766240
>>>709765718
>Neither good nor evil exist. Do you think that Hitler's troops knew they were doing evil
>killing people
>not bad/evil
Your argument is stupid. Everyone has a sense or moral and hurting others is of the most basic
>>709765718
This is wrong. Good and evil aren't magical things that depend on God to exist. They're meaningful expressions in our language based on how they're used. (Wittgenstien "meaning is use" etc.) For example, it's a violation of moral rules to subject someone to arbitrary harm.
Now, whether or not there's a reason to actually behave morally (in accordance with moral rules) is a different question, but that doesn't mean good and bad require God to get their meaning.
See also the Euthyphro dilemma. Morality actually can't depend on God's will because it would rob morality of any meaning at all. God could wake up tomorrow and send all the sinners to heaven and the sinful to hell. That would be wrong on my view, but totally fine with you.
>>709765406
"My god is so powerful and omnipotent that he can create the entire universe and everything in it, but so stupid that he can't figure out how to make it work on without needing to flip a bunch of switches and turn a bunch of cranks to keep it from exploding"
I am a fan of the point that if god exists, we really shouldn't be worshiping him because he is either incompetent or evil.
When we look at a building we know that some people got together and made a concious effort to construct it. People who believe in God have the same way of thinking when looking at things in the natural world (plants, animals, our planet, the universe, etc.)
prove he/she does...
Like, i would even be willing to get on board with the belief that god DOES exist(even if i don't really believe it) if people were moving in the direction of - we shouldn't be giving this god guy any respect or listening to what he has to say because he's apparently an asshole.
>>709766794
>>>709765718
Here's a sloppy unfinished draft paper I wrote about this stuff after a similar argument on /b/.
https://www.scribd.com/document/329336772/Morality-in-a-Nutshell
>>709766317
First of all, you should know that God isn't interested in us simply believing that he exists, but that we give our life to him and worship him.
"You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!"
(James 2:19)
Second, it's not necessarily true that people will bow the knee to God if he showed himself in the sky. I would bet many would think it's obnoxious, and others would call it magic, or find some other explanation for it as we do all the time. Remember the story of the Israelites and Moses? Even after God delivered them from Egypt and did many miracles for them, as soon as Moses left up mount Sinai to get the ten commandments, they made themselves a golden calf and worshiped that!
God has made it evident that he exists, you can see it all around you, in you, and through science and common sense if you think about it (where did the universe come from, etc...). There's plenty of evidence if you look! Most importantly though, God can be experienced directly by you, if you seek him he will make himself known to you. God is not some abstract entity that we believe in, but rather our heavenly Father who wants to have a relationship with us. Religion won't help you here, you must repent and surrender to him, seek his kingdom and pray for his presence in your life, go to church and let born again Christians pray for you.
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
(Romans 1:19-20)
Lastly, God does miracles and heals people all the time. You can find plenty of videos like this on Youtube, hundreds of thousands of testimonies from people all over the world. Watch this video for one example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NfNSAQJvN0
>>709766494
No. What's the pattern?
>>709764582
Prove that my penis isn't 20inch
>angry micropenis
>can't disprove 20inch
Therefore, i have a 20inch penis and you are blind of you don't have faith in my almighty cock. You fill the missing inches in your life with god and 4chin but my cock guides us to the righteous path.
Thank you, brothers, May my cock guide you all. I welcome any micropenises to challange me but do so in a polite manner as I know you with small cocks are always filled with hatred and spread this to others like wildfire.
>>709766779
Morals are a social construct. Does hamsters have morals when they eat one of their babies? does bees create a union to have better work environment? Everything is relative.
>>709766724
>It's an invisible elephant with supernatural powers
>>709767176
You're not really answering my question. I am not kidding that i wasn't interested in starting up an argument. I'm asking for your opinion.
It is a premise of the question that people just DID believe that it really was god if i he sudden;y appeared and said, "Yes, i exist."
But then he goes away again. And you theoretically return to having to have faith that he's real.
But since everyone living today now has proof, would you say that at least for this generation of people, faith is ruined? Or can faith still exist when there is proof?
>>709767424
I didn't ask you to prove there is an invisible elephant in there.
Of course it would be much more difficult to prove an invisible elephant is inside of a room.
>>709767268
Based 20 inch brother
>>709766240
>>709766794
We cannot define objective moral values without God, because then we are left with subjective moral values, meaning that if Hitler had won WW2 and managed to brainwash or kill anyone who disagreed with him, then killing homosexuals and gypsies would become good.
Objective moral values are independent of human opinion.
Also the answer to the Euthyphro dilemma, which for those who don't know, is:
“Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?”
The answer is that morally good acts are neither independent of God, nor are the arbitrary based on whatever God wills, but rather they are good because God IS good.
In other words, God is the very paradigm of goodness itself, his nature is reflected upon us in the form of commandments and laws. They are not arbitrary nor independent of God.
If you're interested in the moral argument for God, watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxiAikEk2vU
IF you gonna believe in fairytales why not believe a more badass one like Odin or maybe Pazuzu? Pazuzu is pretty cool
Agnosticism Master race
>>709767268
I don't see your point. I believe you until I'm given reason not to.
>>709767718
Wow. Someone's bitter.
>>709767336
God created humans above these species.
You can't compare humans to insects, you fucking dip. Even if moral was a social construct it does not take away the fact good and evil exists
>>709767773
i can't decide if you should be praised for staying out of a fight that no one can win or mocked for your smug cowardice
>>709767841
But... muh logic!
>>709767718
I wanna believe in star trek. I like that universe.
I have a micro penis
>>709767718
I don't own a fedora, katana and like to keep well trimmed. Can I still believe in Odin?
>>709767923
>>709767777
The point is that your phrasing makes you a faggot no matter in what you believe.
>>709767967
Sure, but you really ought to own a fedora. Indiana jones fedora, not trilby. Trilby's are hideous.
>>709767440
Oh, so you're asking a hypothetical scenario where God decides to show himself to all mankind, and whether that would "ruin our faith"? Well no, I don't think it would, but I do think even if that did happen, many would still reject God
Faith isn't believing in something we know nothing about or cannot experience. The apostle Thomas didn't believe that Christ had risen, but believed when he saw Jesus, and Jesus told him:
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
(John 20:27-29)
It didn't ruin Thomas' faith when he saw the risen Christ.
>>709767691
>We cannot define objective moral values without God, because then we are left with subjective moral values, meaning that if Hitler had won WW2 and managed to brainwash or kill anyone who disagreed with him, then killing homosexuals and gypsies would become good.
Wrong.
>, but rather they are good because God IS good.
But you've already defined goodness in terms of God's will. This is the problem. By defining goodness in terms of God's nature we have no basis for determinations on what count's as good besides what God wants. But God could change his mind.
>>709768047
Okay thank you.
>>709767554
Hey, if you don't believe in the bathroom elephant that's your deal. I'm just trying to save your mortal soul, after all you only get 60 years of afterlife
>>709764582
I could have all the faith in the world that i can bang a hot chick, but it will not change the fact that i am a beta faggot cuck virgin living in my mum's basement.
>>709767176
>you can ever trust jews
Prove that a man walked on water
Prove that someone spoke through a burning bush
Prove that noah lived through a flood of the earth
Prove that a man lived a thousand years
Sorry friend but it's not the atheists who have the proof problem
>>709767854
Evil for one is good for another and vice versa. Nothing is absolute. Not even your tiny dick inside your mom's ass.
>>709768047
Faith is blind obedience to a fictional character.
>>709768160
>But God could change his mind.
If God wouldn't change his mind that would only be because he is necessarily good, which requires that we have a definition of goodness which lies outside of God's nature. We know God is good because goodness as meaning we can ascribe to God. Otherwise whatever God wants goes, and morality can depend on his arbitrary wishes.
I'm not actually presuming to argue God isn't good; just that we only know that because we have a perception of goodness and can appropriately ascribe it to God. God wouldn't send sinners to heaven and the good people to hell because that would be wrong, and God's being necessarily good means he refrains from doing that.
>>709768191
The fact that it's easy to demonstrate that a negative isn't impossible to prove doesn't really have bearing on the "is there a god" question.
Because we would have to look everywhere for him. And last i checked the universe was infinitely large, or finitely large but expanding all the time. That question IS an example of where it's possibly impossible to prove the negative.
I just wanted to point out that it isn't strictly true that proving a negative is always impossible.
>>709768365
>as meaning
*has meaning
Also, re the cultural relativism thing, you're presuming that we can't get objective morality in any other way. But that's a false presumption.
See
>>709767140
God is all powerful, thus he has the ability to set any reality he chooses and create whatever condition he wants. He makes a world with retards from the south, black people, muslims, and 4chan. Seems like a perfectly reasonable outcome to me.
>2015+1
>still not believing in God
>>709768160
Please do tell me how I'm wrong, not just that I'm wrong.
If you went to some cannibal tribe in the Amazonian forest and told them that eating people from other tribes is wrong, on what basis do you make that claim? The tribe leader can tell you "Well, in our culture, it is good. Who are you to tell us otherwise?"
In the absence of God, all that is left is relative morality, and might makes right.
>But you've already defined goodness in terms of God's will
God could will that you suffer, if he knows that your suffering will lead to you being saved, doesn't make suffering good.
God is loving, therefore we must love, God is kind, therefore we must be kind, God is merciful, therefore we must be merciful. It is his nature, and since we are made in his image, that law of God is written on our hearts, which is why we are able to recognize objective good and evil even though we give lip service to subjective morality.
>>709768175
No problem!
>>709767176
And those who call it magic would be correct in that observation, as Theurgy is still a branch of magic.
>>709768405
"You can't use my argument to prove that your religion, I'm already using it to prove mine"
>>709768338
No, faith is trusting in something which you have good reason to believe is true
I actually do understand the devoutly religious viewpoint. It's a fascinating viewpoint. Scary almost. But one i opt out of.
The idea is basically that it is a PREMISE that god is perfect and the universe makes sense. And it's just that humans are too simple to understand it. Like a 2D creature trying to understand a 3D universe. It's beyond our ability to comprehend.
Thus everything that doesn't seem to make sense, does make sense on the divine level of thinking. And we're just supposed to do what god says, because he can see the 3D picture.
Spooky thinking like that, isn't it?
>>709768333
>evil for one is a good for another
There is evil being committed. Just because someone may benefit from the act does not classify it as an act of good, it's a spillover benefit.
You just disproved your original statement of
>Neither good nor evil exists
Thanks.
>>709764582
God is omnipotent
That means he is able of doing anything.
There are impossible oximorons.
By knowledge a priori, its impossible to be omnipotent.
God doesnt exist
QED
>>709768620
God performs miracles, which are miracles because they do not normally happen in nature, such as the virgin birth or the resurrection of Christ, or anyone who gets healed today by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Magic is the work of the devil and his demons, occultism and whatnot. Be sober and watch out for deceiving spirits.
>>709768651
We're all wizards
Never ending story
Ahahah ahahah ahahah...
Never ending story
Ahahah ahahah ahahah...
Never ending story
Ahahah ahahah ahahah...
>>709765406
This is obviously the truth, indestructible logic!
But, nah. Read a book not preached to capture sheeple in an imaginary divine though-prison please.
>>709768590
>If you went to some cannibal tribe in the Amazonian forest and told them that eating people from other tribes is wrong, on what basis do you make that claim? The tribe leader can tell you "Well, in our culture, it is good. Who are you to tell us otherwise?"
No, he'd need a better explanation. If he has a conscience, then he will agree that it's wrong to deliberately harm someone without a reason, where such a reason has to relate to avoiding/denouncing/punishing/deterring some harm (or maybe gaining some benefit).
The explanation he'd have to offer is something like, "These people are inferior and we absorb magic strength through them and if we don't eat them the tree and rock gods will destroy the world." The claim that something is good or right has to have something to do with what benefits and harms to human beings (maybe animals and aliens too but that's a different question). If he doesn't have such an explanation then they're just hurting people for no reason, so we can say he's mistaken. He's doing something wrong.
We can also determine that his explanation is false, because people they eat aren't actually inferior and there is no such thing as magic strength to be gained or tree gods. So their explanation for why it's permissible is mistaken. It's empirically indictable.
>>709765718
You're of course an authority on this, even though contemporary theists and philosophers still incline towards the non-existence of objective values. Educate yourself and don't just talk out of your ass.
>>709768590
>God could will that you suffer, if he knows that your suffering will lead to you being saved, doesn't make suffering good.
It makes it instrumentally good, yes. Not intrinsically. Suffering is bad because it represents a harm.
>God is loving, therefore we must love, God is kind, therefore we must be kind, God
Now you're just substituting an independent definition of love for an independent definition of goodness. You're making the same mistake you're accusing me of.
>>709768708
Exactly, from a evolution point of view religion or faith is part of human nature, it's just another mechanism to keep us going. doesn't make what it claims more true but is a really interesting subject when studied from a distance. The part of the brain that religion use is associated with the part that childs use to learn basic survival skills. like your dad telling you not to go swim in a crocodile infested river. You don't question it. it just make sense in your head. same for religious people.
>>709766724
Did you check in the drain trap of the sink? Elephants love hiding there.
>>709764582
Faggot
>>709769107
>>709769197
he's right we're all the sons of monkeys. If you want to visit your grandmother just go to the zoo, you'll find her and your aunt who's a dinosaur!
NEVER ENDING STOREEEEEEEEEH NANANANANANANANANA!
>>709769201
IT'S THE MICRO MAGIC ELEPHANT OF THE SINK. BOW DOWN TO YOUR MASTER!
>>709769107
>philosophers still incline towards the non-existence of objective values
Most philosophers actually think you can get something like a thin version of objective morality, though they tend to be cagey about why. My view is just that it's Wittgensteinian; the use of moral terms is tied up and associated with what benefits and harms human beings, meaning is use (Wittgenstein), and so the meanings of those terms relate to what benefits and harms human beings as well. This doesn't run afoul of the naturalistic fallacy because it says nothing about why we *should* be moral (that's a tougher issue), but it does mean that if you want to be a good person in the sense of the usual use and definition of the term, you have to refrain from deliberately harming people for no reason (for example).
Faith is a powerful psychological tool.
It can be used to not lose your mind in times of distress.
It can force you to go through hardships that otherwise would have put you into despair.
It can be used to manipulate you and to manipulate others.
It can be the cause for mental illness or play a great part in it.
The question if a god really exists isn't really that interesting. The question should be if the tool of faith would make a positive or negative impact on your life and mental health if you use it.
Of course the answer to this question is different from person to person.
But as long as there is no proof everybody can adapt his faith to his current situation. Not being certain if god exists is the only thing that keeps making it work.
If there was a certain answer to the god dilemma, the tool of faith would lose its flexibility and therefore its capability to connect with millions of people.
>>709769197
>>709769377
>>709769201
you guys all make very valid points however have you ever tried autism x2?
>>709764582
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>>709764582
Assume there is a God: Where did God come from? Recursion problem without resolution.
Assume there is not a God: Where did the Big Bang come from? Recursion problem without resolution.
Religious beliefs - theist and atheist - are simply infinite loops that people get stuck in, then when their brain resets out of it they spout stupid shit, but the question itself can be avoided.
I'm an agnostic. Maybe there's a god, maybe there isn't - so I'm going to enjoy my life, be as good to others as I can, and try to leave this little pebble of the Universe in a state where other life forms can come and go and have their own little lives as well.
After I die, it will be the big reveal. Maybe I will meet God. Maybe I will be born back into this universe. Maybe I will become a ghost that can see everything in this universe. Maybe I will be born into a different universe. Maybe I'll just end up in hyperprison for murder of all the spiders I encountered in my life. But, at the end of my life, I will have a fascinating unknown waiting for me. I don't need anyone to ruin it for me by forcing an "expectation" as to what lies beyond.
Actually, sometimes I wonder if I will ever die... if death is only for other people. I have a universe I will live in forever, and all you people will "die" out of my universe - and I will "die" out of yours - but in each of our own universes, we will live on forever.
Gotta suck, though, to try and commit suicide by jumping off a 100-story building and to survive that impact but have every bone broken such that you now live your life as a puddle that doesn't eat but can't die.
Which god?
>>709769025
>If he has a conscience, then he will agree that it's wrong to deliberately harm someone without a reason
Says who? You see, you're agreeing that objective moral values exist, but in your worldview they are hanging in the middle of the air
You might not like being harmed, others like to electrocute themselves for sexual gratification, others find great joy in harming their enemies (ISIS?), but who decides whether any of these actions are morally good or not?
None of us think that killing non-Muslims is right, but ISIS clearly do, so on what basis do we say they're wrong? They're humans just like we are, what makes our opinion superior to theirs?
You cannot define good and evil by pleasure and pain, those are completely different things, we are talking about the ontology of morals here. Falling down the stairs isn't evil, even though it causes you pain.
>>709769107
Actually most of them believe in the reality of objective morality, even many Atheists do... I'm not an authority on this, but William Lane Craig certainly is :)
>>709769120
I don't think so, in fact pain itself can be very good. Imagine if you couldn't feel any pain? You could bleed to death without having any idea about it.
God's nature is what defines our moral values, not his will. He willed that Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed, but that doesn't mean it's a commandment for us to destroy depraved nations.
I'm not a philosopher so don't expect much from me, but if you're really interested, I highly recommend looking into the material of William Lane Craig about this. Here's one video you could watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBvi_auKkaI
>>709769693
>Assume there is a God: Where did God come from? Recursion problem without resolution.
>Assume there is not a God: Where did the Big Bang come from? Recursion problem without resolution.
No exactly. In either case there's no such thing as a time before the universe, since time is a feature of the observable universe. So the universe isn't infinitely old, but there was no time before it. That means our usual conceptions of cause and effect (which are temporal) are all fucky with respect to the initiation of the universe. It doesn't need a "cause" in the usual sense, though the question of why there's something instead of nothing still (I presume) invites some kind of explanation. Though maybe it's beyond our monkey brains to even approach the problem in a meaningful way. Shit's weird.
>>709764582
which god?
given the number of gods that have ever been worshipped, there is an almost 100% chance the the god you claim exists is not the same god you beleive in.
so if you are right, you are as fucked as any atheist.
in fact beleivers of other gods are often treated worse by religions that non-beleivers.
>>709768761
Still, people that are actually gifted thinkers, among the biggest in our world, disagree on wether objective good or evil values exist. I don't say you can't have an opinion on it, but you need to read some philosophy, etc. that isn't the Bible.
>>709769693
Actually there is no recursion problem, because God is the "first uncaused cause". If what you said is true, then all science would break down and nothing could ever be explained!
The first premise for the argument for the cause of the universe is:
"Whatever BEGINS to exist, requires a cause"
Science proves that the universe began to exist billions of years ago in the big bang.
>>709764582
>Prove Santa Claus doesn't exist
>angry grinch
>can't disprove Santa
>Therefore, there is Santa and you are blind if you don't have faith in the almighty deity. You fill the void in your life from drugs, sex and 4chin but with faith Santa guides us to the righteous path.
>Thank you, brothers. May Santa guide you all. I welcome any grinch to challenge me but do so in a polite manner as I know you grinches are always filled with hatred and spread this to others like wildfire
>>709764582
>>709770219
just because we dont know what caused the big bang doesnt mean it can automatically be attributed to a god.
also, learn about quantum fluctautions and youll realise that "whatever begins requires a cause" is just wrong
>>709770219
>"Whatever BEGINS to exist, requires a cause"
This is probably wrong.
>Science proves that the universe began to exist billions of years ago in the big bang.
Yes, but so did time. There was no time before the universe. There was no moment prior to the universe. Temporality breaks down when talking about this shit, and so does cause and effect. Time is a feature of the universe, not a preexisting feature of the void in which it began.
>>709764789
/thread
learn some debate skills OP
>>709764582
I will concede that god.
Prove YOUR god exists
>Thousands of them
>only proof is in books written by men thousands of years ago
>>709770188
Actually the sheer number of different religions and believes and the geographical and cultural differences in faith and religion even in the same kind of relgion are the best proof that god doesn't exist.
It proofs that religion and faith are a byproduct of a regions culture and society.
If omnipotence really would exist, it would be a power that by existing alone would have an impact on reality - therefore making it way more likely that apart from region, time period and culture people would adapt a type of faith that would be very similar to each other.
That isn't the case - so god is more likely to be a man made product than a actual "force of nature"
>>709765718
ASSUMING this is correct (even though this logic is fucked about a word used to describe subjective emotions about something)
then why is god such a dick? sure you can say "oh its human choice blase blase" but what about natural disasters? millions suffer from those, what good in a person life is equal to a little girl getting raped and murdered?
>>709770219
>Actually there is no recursion problem, because God is the "first uncaused cause".
Or you say the universe itself is the "first uncaused cause" and don't worry about God or a big bang. As soon as you try to explain the universe, you then need to explain that source as well. Does God have a God? Did the Big Bang come from another Big Bang? Hence, recursion.
>>709770476
>"Proof"
>>709770667
>It proofs that religion and faith are a byproduct of a regions culture and society.
Or that God likes fucking with his creations by constantly feeding different versions of belief over time, to watch us yell and scream at each other over who's right.
ps. Scientology is right.
>>709770436
Of course not, but with some deductive reasoning, it becomes pretty clear
In the big bang, the following began to exist: time, space, matter
So the cause has to be timeless, spaceless, and immaterial
This cause has to also be immensely powerful, and personal because it chose to create the universe.
Only 2 things can fit this category: a being (mind), or abstract objects (numbers)
Numbers have no causal power whatsoever, so the only thing left is God. You can call it supernatural power source of awesomeness if you like, but it is what we understand as God.
>>709770439
>This is probably wrong.
Don't say this in public bro, it's common sense 101
You are correct in saying there was no moment prior to the universe, but it doesn't really affect the argument. The cause doesn't have to be "before" the effect, it can be simultaneous with the effect. In other words, time began to exist the very same "moment" God created the universe.
>>709770919
No because you can easily can retrace the prigins of the doctrines of each religion to social and cultural problems a region had.
The creation of religion is therefore a normal social process and not influenced by a higher might.
Of course a higher might still could exist, because we lack the means to find the ultimate truth.
But chances are that it most likely never heard of us or even one of our prayers.
>>709770770
We know that the universe isn't that, literally all of the evidence we have points to the beginning of the universe.
Saying that everything requires an explanation outside of itself, causing infinite recursion, is like dividing by zero my dear friend, it's an impossible scenario where nothing could ever be explained. There has to be a first uncaused cause.
>>709770692
That's a different topic. In short I would answer that disorder came into this world due to sin.
God's purpose for our life isn't to live comfortable and happy lives, even though it would have been like that if sin never entered the world, but now we must spread the gospel of Jesus to as many people as possible before the end comes, and as the book of Revelation says:
"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
(Revelation 21:4)
God loves us and created us in his image, that package includes free will, unfortunately we disobeyed God with the freedom he gave us (which he gave us because he loves us, and didn't want to create robot slaves, but children) and sin and death entered this world.
>>709771322
>The creation of religion is therefore a normal social process and not influenced by a higher might.
hey, look up in the sky. see that? it's the joke you missed.
>>709770978
>So the cause has to be timeless, spaceless, and immaterial
I have a problem with the concept of a timeless cause. The start of the universe may be an event that invites explanation, but if there's no time before the universe it doesn't invite a *causal* explanation. It may be an event, but not a cause. God is causeless as well, but hasn't existed for an infinite time (because time is only 15 billion years old). Conceptually, there's nothing wrong with ascribing causelessness to the universe in a similar way.
>and personal because it chose to create the universe.
There's no reason to presume anything was chosen. That's a presumption you have no proof for..
>Only 2 things can fit this category: a being (mind), or abstract objects (numbers)
This is another presumption you can't offer proof for. There might be myriad other possible explanations, but which we haven't got language to describe yet or which we don't have access to. Mind probably isn't abstract anyway.
>You are correct in saying there was no moment prior to the universe, but it doesn't really affect the argument. The cause doesn't have to be "before" the effect, it can be simultaneous with the effect. In other words, time began to exist the very same "moment" God created the universe.
The problem is without the two presumptions above, there's no reason to posit that God did it. It's a nice explanation, but not one that's supported by evidence.
>>709769693
>Actually, sometimes I wonder if I will ever die... if death is only for other people. I have a universe I will live in forever, and all you people will "die" out of my universe - and I will "die" out of yours - but in each of our own universes, we will live on forever
What did he mean by this?
god does not exist, because you can't proof that he does, it's as easy as that.
>>709764582
Prove unicorns don't exist.
>>709771583
>There has to be a first uncaused cause.
Prove it -- that there is only one "first" uncaused cause. Maybe God and the Big Bang both tried to create a universe, meaning there would be two concurrent uncaused causes, as there would be no time before the universe to separate them into first and second because that determination requires time, that doesn't exist until after the creation of the universe.
>>709771638
>>709770978
> It may be an event, but not a *cause.
Sorry, that should say "it may be an event, but not an effect"
>>709771667
>person who does not know of you
>has no resources to see if you and you only exist/present
>hence, you cant exist
nice argument, fucking cunt
>>709771677
If Unicorns existed, they'd have sued Squatty Potty for the "unicorn soft serve" ad. No lawsuit, therefore no such thing as unicorns.
>>709764582
>Prove God doesn't exist
proving the non existant, religiofag
>>709766240
Many in the S.S knew what they were doing was wrong. Check your history
Because hillary would be arrested by now
>>709771638
I think the simultaneity of the effect and cause deal with the problem of time.
The personal part I do believe we have evidence for. Normally if the effect is eternal, then the cause should be eternal too, right? The only way in which the effect could be eternal, but the cause temporal, is if the effect was a personal being who chose to bring the universe into existence, but then choose to destroy it if he wants to.
As for the category part... I honestly can't see any other options. If you do, I'm all ears. I didn't even think about the abstract objects part, i took it straight out of Dr. Craig's work
If you're interested check his material out, I'm more than confident that he has answers to any difficult questions you might have. Check out their Reasonable Faith website, tons of material. I wish I had the time to go through it all and even study philosophy, but life doesn't permit me to do so....
I seen and heard ghosts and seen a sacred holy priest aura when i was a kid
>>709772431
I've taught some of Craig's stuff in my phil of religion class. Still not a believer haha.
Here's what I'll say about God. I was a confirmed, hardcore dick atheist for 20 years. Then I tried mushrooms and have had several of what I can only characterize as vividly religious/spiritual experiences. If I didn't have access to the chemical explanation for those, I'd be in a monastery right now. Chris Rock has a bit about OJ Simpson, "I'm not saying he shoulda killed her, but I understand." That's my view of God now, "I'm not saying I believe in God, but I understand."
>>709772046
I didn't say there couldn't be more, even though I personally don't believe there are more, but to claim that there is no beginning point would destroy science as we know it because then we would never be able to explain anything in this universe
>Maybe God and the Big Bang both tried to create a universe
The big bang is not an entity with causal powers, it's the effect we refer to that brought the universe into existence. In any case, why posit such a ludicrous argument? It sounds to me like a desperate attempt to escape God as the cause to be honest.
Occam's Razor says "Don't multiply causes beyond necessity". I think that applies here.
>>709771667
But you can't prove that he doesn't either. Smug athiests don't know for sure. It's what they believe in their religion.
>>709764582
>Prove God doesn't exist
Ok
Prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist
Prove the easter bunny doesn't exist
Prove their isn't a tiny teapot in orbit around the earth
Prove Poseidon doesn't exist
You must disprove these first, then I'll disprove your god doesn't exist.
Done
>>709765406
But there are factory's that work by themself
>>709772865
I already said i seen ghosts and the holy power in a priest
>>709766556
Singapore is basically modern day gamorah
>>709765406
>The universe can not operate itself without a divine being. Can a factory operate itself without people being there? No.
muh complexity argument
If the universe is complex and god created it, and all complex things must have been created by someone, then god must be complex - Who created god.
And all at once the complexity argument fails even childish scrutiny
>>709772698
I would have said "Coool" a few years back, but man, stay away from drugs, they're bad mmmkay (I've done my share too) :-)
I think at the end of the day, belief in God is more a matter of the heart than the mind, so maybe you could try listening to people like Ravi Zacharias for example? Very smart and well spoken man, could listen to him for hours
All the best!
>>709767554
It would be super easy just walk up and down the room in a grid feeling for the elaphant if you don't bump into one it isn't there
>>709773068
>>>709772698 (You)
>I would have said "Coool" a few years back, but man, stay away from drugs
Cocaine is the one I try to stay away from. But hell, I haven't even smoked pot in 3 months. I miss it like an old friend.
Apatheism is the way to go.
Who really gives a fuck one way or the other?
Doesn't make my life any different/better/worse.
>>709772929
Eye witness testimony is the absolute worst kind of evidence.
>>709764582
>you can't prove god doesn't exist therefore god exists
that's some real solid logic you got going on there
>>709773229
>Doesn't make my life any different/better/worse.
religion makes life worse, apathy additionally makes life worse. Knowing the right thing to do, and failing to do it is wrong.
>>709764582
Prove God does exist.
Atheists: 0
Monotheists: 0
Agnostics: somewhere over 9000
>>709767773
agnostics are the most cringeworthy
>>709766556
he lets singapore exist be ause there are still good people in singapore
>>709773399
>Agnostics: somewhere over 9000
Agnostics: somewhere over -9000 for failing to have a spine or fortitude to find out and know there is no god, no magic, nothing mysticl.
>>709768322
muh intelligent design
>>709773506
You're just may because you can't prove shit
>>709773597
Lol, you're so wrong it's funny
>>709767773
suacenegger
>>709767773
Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle ... Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable.
— Thomas Henry Huxley
>>709773201
Tried it once, can be pretty addictive. I smoked pot for years and it turned me into the laziest and most impatient person ever.
Thank God I'm all clean now, I actually have dreams now! I used to sleep high and didn't remember having dreams.
>>709773386
I'm just saying that I don't think it's productive to use my time considering whether or not God or gods exist.
It's more of a nice "live and let live" kind of apathy, not a "life has no meaning/I don't care" kind of thing.
>>709773509
the boys that are getting raped?
>>709768047
Jesus meant that people are more blessed when they believe without seeing.
>>709764582
prove that god does exist fucker
>>709773930
>guilt trip
>>709773682
agnostics are worse than fedoras and trenchcoats
>>709773242
>>709773000
This is a religious person extolling the intrinsic goodness of god, who is fond of genocide in the old testament.
Remember: Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change"
>>709774009
>angry usage of stereotyping
>thinks he knows the right answer
>>709773930
It's not clear from the text, nowhere did Jesus say "more blessed", just blessed, but in any case it's not really a problem...
>>709764582
>that logic
i don't which is sadder:
that you didn't even bother to put 3 minutes of thought into that troll
OR
that it still worked and
>>709764789
and you, you cannot /thread your own post
lurk more
>>709772321
>demand proof for a religion (movement or whatever)
>create a movement / something against it (atheists)
>dont bring any proof yourself
>Y-You have to p-proof it first! Cus I...I asked y-you first!!!!
I always found atheists to be more retarded, aggressive and just dumb in general than people who belive in a religion.
>>709773377
tldr pls
What is atheism then. What do atheist see themselfs as?
Its just a movement against religion.
Its as dumb as religion, just that most of the time the people that follow it are more retarded and edgy than people who follow a religion.
>>709764582
I got this.
God is infinite and timeless. Therefore he always existed. That means that he existed for infinite amount of time. Which means that infinite amount of time had to pass from the point of God's existence to the point where he supposedly created everything. Infinite time can never pass because it is infinite. Therefore God could never create everything. Therefore everything came to be in some other way and God doesn't exist.
I'll tell you dudes one thing.
If I were God, my universe I created would be a whole lot more awesome.
C'mon, a whole big universe full of basically nothing and more nothing and maybe a few stars, and one stupid random hunk of rock that just happens to have a bunch of humans and cows and fish and shit?
BOOOOOORING!!!!
>>709774557
>I always found atheists to be more retarded, aggressive and just dumb in general than people who belive in a religion.
like 97% of the National Academy of Science, and 100% of "The Royal Society"...
Your argument lacks substance
>>709774699
Atheist: none theists
it does not mean they are against religion it simply means they do not believe in it.
the ones that go around yelling and fighting against religion are just assholes, nothing to do with them being atheists
>>709774699
To say someone is Atheist, says almost nothing about them.
It just means we looked at the claims in the holy books and find them ridiculous.
Why is there a name 'Athiest" for people that do not believe in fairy tales?
Is there a name for people that do not believe in the tooth fairy?
Fact: You are all atheist with respect to everyone else's religion, so suck it.
>>709765586
No, atheists make a claim to lack of proof
Theists say God exists
Atheists say there is no proof on gods existance, so god doesn't exist
Therefore, the burden of proof lies on theists.
Checkmate.
>>709774952
>Is there a name for people that do not believe in the tooth fairy?
Adults?
>>709774883
>the ones that go around yelling and fighting against religion are just assholes
Who does this? name one. Protip: you can't.
It's theists that go yelling in schools about creation science, and saying 'evolution is controversial' or debatable.
>>709774952
This
>>709774767
How comes atheists have such an obsession fighting religious people?
>>709774699
>people who don't believe in supernatural retardation are just as edgy and retarded as people who do
kill yourself
>protip: tag, you're it
>>709775119
did you read the thread or any of the gazillion other threads similar to this one?
also, you are kind of proving the point
>>709775080
Adults shouldn't believe in the magical flippant angry sky god either, but they do.
The question still stands: Why is there a name for people that simply don't believe in the millions of possible gods out there?
>>709775196
>How comes atheists have such an obsession fighting religious people?
That's absolutely demonstrably false. It's religion that fights scientific claims.. There is nothing to fight as far as atheists go.
>>709764582
The reason people are against Scientology is basically the same reason atheists are against religion.
>It just means we looked at the claims in the holy books and find them ridiculous.
Same thing goes for religious people. They look at your 'claims' (aka god is not real cus of that and this..) and they find it ridiculous.
So why are you so obsessed fighting with them?
>>709764582
>YOU CAN"T DISPROVE IT!
You can't disprove that I have a 12 inch dick, and it must therefore be true.
>>709775208
Because it is the truth?
>>709775384
people actually pay money to perpetuate demonstrably harmful ideas
Some atheists point this out, and it's good as far as I'm concerned.
>>709774557
>>709764582
>>709765586
>Some person walks around claiming they've solved the Reiman hypothesis.
>Ask them to show it.
>"No, prove I didn't solve it"
This is how stupid Christians sound when they claim they don't have burden of proof.
>>709775601
There is no truth to a claim that cannot be falsified, no matter how comfortable believing it makes you feel
>>709775384
>It's religion that fights scientific claims
For example??
While it is commonly assumed that most scientists are atheists, the global perspective resulting from a study shows that this is simply not the case.
More than half of scientists in India, Italy, Taiwan and Turkey self-identify as religious
>>709775746
Who said i was religious?
>>709775692
For each of these apocalyptic armageddon claims there have been a lot of people quit their jobs, give away their homes and possessions.
We can know this is stupid shit that needs to stop through conversation and reasoning.
>>709775928
>More than half of scientists in India, Italy, Taiwan and Turkey self-identify as religious
Completely different cultural standards and incentives to identify as religious.
>>709775601
>Because it is the truth?
Not even in the slightest
>>709776017
What? I dont understand.
What are you trying to tell me by that?
All these countires come from different regions. Have different religions and different cultures.
why the b8
>>709775928
For example, Galileo.
>>709775928
Indian theism is different than the monotheism. Some believe in some crazy shit, but most are concerned with human happiness and peaceful existence.
The monotheists of the world are concerned with divisiveness.
>>709764582
This entire thread
>>709776162
>All these countires come from different regions. Have different religions and different cultures.
Yes, and in some it would be a complete taboo to identify as an atheist or agnostic. Unlike in the U.S. or the U.K., there is more pressure to identify religious in any one of the countries you just listed.
>>709776313
Galileo was a religious suck up. Atheists were dealt with swiftly back then, so almost anyone with resources in Europe had to be religious. His relationship with the vatican is what saved him from being disemboweled for heresy rather than simple house arrest.
Galileo prove the bible cannot be used as a science book when he blasphemed this verse:
Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
>>709769025
>But muh conscience
You are basing an entire argument off of a bit of human instinct. If a human grew up thinking eating people is okay, his conscience would say its okay
>>709764582
W8, lemme think of a proof.
The only way he could interfere with us is by some electromagnetic waves, because any other form of interactions would be easily detected by our senses. That cuts off his existance on earth. He can't be anywhere in three dimensional space, because we watch and describe every electromagnetic waves, and no effect on us has been reported.
The only way, that may allow his existence is, that he would be settled in n-dimensional space.
Now let's think of an analogy. Imagine, that there is an 2-dimensional space right in front of you. Can you interact with it? No! You can't touch it, because atoms of your hand would go right through it. And if it crosses through an atom, it doesn't interact either, because they aren't indivisible, an quarks don't settle in one place, but they are like clouds. You can't see the 2-dimensoinal space because it doesn't reflect light.
See the analogy? The same way 3-dimensional space can't interfere the 2-dimensional space, the same way n-dimensional space cat interfere the k-dimensional space for every n and k.
This disproves god's existance anywhere.
Sorry for my english.
>>709777082
Space can't, not space cat
>>709776313
Galileo, like Charles Dawin simply reported their findings in a simple observable way, so that anyone could see it for themselves.
It is how we know Charles Dawin's Theory is the explanation and observation of natural phenomenon. It is explanation, and its observable by anyone.
It's really good stuff, but it defeats a HUGE section of the bible, so born again Christians and Muslims must fight it anyway they can.
I hear that catholics have been told by the vatican that evolution is good, so therefor it's OK to learn evolutionary theory for them.
+1 internets for catholics?
>>709774719
Thats
Thats actually kind of a good argument
>>709774557
>be me
>believe in great man eater god cthulu
>preach my ways to some infidels on an image board
>assholes think my god doesn't exist
>don't know they have to disprove him first before i actually provide them with any proof
>mfw
>>709774719
>a whole big universe full of basically nothing and more nothing and maybe a few stars,
Trillions of galaxies of stars
The natural cosmos is pretty awesome as is actually.
The bible is indication of how ignorant those authors were, when in several places in the bible they say "the stars will fall from the skies"
>>709775384
B8
>Athiests aren't religious
b8
>>709764582
We cannot prove god doesn't exist.
But Christians can't prove god does exist
It's all just belief there's no facts.
>>709775119
So...I'm an atheist...and I'm kinda on your side...but...there are so many. Richard Dawkins for one. All the folks who subscribe to Atheism in the religion field on their Favebook profile if you want a multitude of examples...
>>709777464
>>don't know they have to disprove him first before i actually provide them with any proof
This is the impossible task, and since your religion relies on faith (literally believing cliams that cannot be proven), then you're literally admitting defeat.
Why do religious people even concern themselves with evidence and proof, since faith is what is king?
Why is belief the most important facet? Without belief, no matter how kind you are, you are doomed.
Why is belief so important?
Why isn't kindness the most important thing?
>>709777794
Atheism is a religion like celibacy is a sex position
>>709777464
Fair enough.
That actually got me.
But you can always choose between the more logical thing and as long as the other doesnt hurt you why fight it so hard when there are far more extreme religions like islam that want to kill you take over?
>>709767777
no one has checked my quads yet
I'm a little tea-pot, short and stout…
>>709764582
>Proving a negative
well, then again you probably didn't pay attention in school.
>>709773023
>Assuming God was created
God always existed
>>709777982
Talking and conversation is not fighting.
We have two choices:
Conversation or war.
Most religious people will not engage in discussion about the existence of god. They will usually argue it's merits or utility, but not the proof god exists.
Dawkins and Hitchens argued with their record of religious wrong doings that religion is bad.
Dawkins continues to show how bad religion is for the world.
>>709776012
Yeah man. I'm listening to an ebook called Influence that in part digs into the mass psychology of cults which applies directly to religion. Check out Bob Cialdini - Influence. Good stuff in there.
>>709778158
Why can't you just admit Atheism is a religion?
i would respect that point of view so much more if they weren't so dishonest about it. Its a ideal thought that defines your life. It is a religion.
>>709777958
At least this guy is being logical. Unlike the rest of you one-sided fags
>>709778457
>God always existed
Busy making statements and claims you cannot possibly know
>>709764582
I mean, there's no proof he is real. Also, who created God?
>>709778457
But that's the philosophical question anon.
How do you 'know' he exists?
>>709778519
>admit Atheism is a religion
Describe the parts that define religion, and describe how that fits atheists, so I can know what you mean.
>>709778511
What is the difference between a cult and a religion?
Nothing aside from the numbers of members that take part in it.
>>709778485
Agreed. I sincerely believe that if someone is really capable of believing that such a creature as God exists, they are to intellectually feeble to survive without the belief that such a God polices their behavior. To discuss religion doesn't bother me. To entertain the premise that it's existence matters to me does.
>>709778228
i'm not fighting for anything. that was my only post in this thread. i don't mind people being religious, its only when they make these borderline bait threads is when i have a problem. if you believe in a god, good for you buddy but don't force it onto others and yes, islam is very shit
>>709778831
Gun to my head I would say that the difference is in mass perception. That's it.
you niggers are on 4chan and believe in a god? in that case you're all going to hell you filthy sinners
Existence precedes essences
All I have to say OP.
>>709779065
>truthKEK
>>709765930
> I believe in God as well; Protestant Christian. How ya doing?
>>709778665
>>709778586
>Busy being ignorant in the fact God exists
>Busy being atheist meme
>not reading holy scriptures e.g. Quran, Bible, Guru Granth Sahib, Vedas
You don't have enough evidence to disprove God. Atheist scum
What's is the best religion, and why is it Islam?
>>709778993
There are many peaceful cults that harm no one, and some people describe certain religions as cults, such as Scientology. I think perception of it gets the label, but the rest of us can know they're all basically the same if they're reporting supernatural events and making a project of their claims.
>>709779227
>)
The bible was written by man.
If i wrote the most influenced book in the entire world you'd think I'd be perfectly honest and not write a bunch of crap?
Or someone who says "I THINK god said this! So I will write this! Even though I'm not 100% sure about it"
Religion aside, do you believe in the general goodness of humans and in promoting kindness? Because I want to be whatever the fuck that is. As long as I can still fap to traps.
>>709779227
This is why some opinions can simply be ignored. They require no response, no thought to disregard.
>>709768175
/b/tard wasn't a faggot...actually didn't start shit about religion. Where am I?
>>709764582
>there is no proof that he DOES exist
what a fucking fag
>>709779404
>The bible was written by man.
Don't forget, it was most certainly written for men as well.
>>709779337
One could argue that allowin someone to harbour a belief in empirically untrue beliefs causes harm, no?
>>709778691
Athiests have Materialism, which is their worldview.
They have Prophets like Marx, Russell and others
Their Messiah is Richard Dawkins
Faith is a claim you cannot prove, which to athiests would be God or a creator doesn't exist.
Would you disagree with any of this?
>>709779227
So if I wrote a book on how lucifer was a pretty cool guy that would be enough to prove that he's actually the good guy?
>>709779524
Thats my point. Had the bible wrote about the fall of rome, the dinosaurs, or warn us about hitler exterminating jews (because jesus can totally see the future you guys) instead he didn't say anything. Just stood there...Like a scumbag steve.
>>709779696
I disagree with most of it. You just applied your lens to atheism and said we all subscribe to it. We atheists are a varried bunch.
>>709779588
>One could argue that allowin someone to harbour a belief in empirically untrue beliefs causes harm, no?
it just depends if the members in group were in full grasp of the truth, what could be different or better, or more useful
For example: The Pennsylvanian Amish allow their children to quit school after the 6th or 8th grade, in the name of religious freedom.
We know that this is bad, because if they were in full grasp of the truth, they would know there is more utility and happiness from getting a full education.
We can know the Taliban make a life less good by throwing battery acid int the faces of girls trying to learn to read.
>>709779696
I only took in small parts of Marx, so I can learn how the socialist thinks.
Marx made a prediction that religion would fade away, but his prediction was wrong.
We have no messiah, and no group leader.
>>709764582
>Prove God doesn't exist
Make me.
>>709779971
All this religion talk makes me sad. It's better as a vague concept than as a prescriptive set of texts and behaviours.
>>709779915
But so are religions. There are many different denominations in Christianity and in the Muslim faith, and they would say that athiests lump them all together and they vary quite a bit.
Im talking about the overall belief system.
>>709780249
ahh, the moderate has entered the discussion.. it's good to see you.
However, if it weren't for fucking moderates, people would have long since stop putting up with religious nonsense.
>>709780253
Right and I see value in the whole "be a good human being" part. I think they all lose something in trying to do more than that. Leave it to man to complicate a simple idea like that to the point we're all killing each other, eh?
>>709780397
Lol, I'm not a mod. And I'm an atheist. I just think it's less important than we suggest through the amount of attention we give it.
>>709780144
But you kinda do though. Dawkins, whether people view him as the messiah or not, is the face of atheism. Jews for example don't believe Jesus Christ was the messiah, but he's still a prophet. Muslims think Moses was a prophet.
>>709780249
>All this religion talk makes me sad.
Why? what parts make you sad?
The parts where religious freedom has reliably caused the deaths of children, because people are allowed to prevent their children from receiving blood transfusions in the name of their religion?
Or that Muslims don't have a fight in the stem cell research battle, because to them "the soul doesn't enter the body until the child is 180 days old"
>>709780397
Oops, I read that as moderator, not moderate the first time.
I am happy to occupy my own opinion and to let more passionate atheists fight the good fight. Pacifist at heart here.
>>709780646
>Jews for example don't believe Jesus Christ was the messiah, but he's still a prophet
Orthodox jews don't believe in heaven or hell, or the devil or a creator god either. It's more like cultural practice, like the Anglicans of England. it's more culture than it is religion.
>>709780493
To be honest, man has killed each other for more reasons than religion. The genocides of the Native Indians, the Rwandan Tutsi Clan, even the muslims in the Crusades are all examples of wars fought over incredible stupid ideologies. Most Christians have reached a consensus that "Do onto others what you want them to do unto you" is the general Christian ideology. We are a peaceful bunch, but some are definitely douchebags.
>>709780493
Absolutely. People don't discern their own behavior. They don't take responsibility for their extremism or the flaws in them as human beings. No accountability is the name of the game for them
>>709780660
It's the part where something that was likely intended to bring us together tears us apart. The whole thing is sad. The fact that adults believe in angels makes me sad. The fact that human lives are lost in its name makes me sad. The fact that we're even having this discussion kind of makes me sad. In a world without religion...this would be a trap thread. That makes me sad too.
>>709780799
>Pacifist at heart here.
But pacifism is a precept of Christian dogmatism. This is partly how can know that the "morals of the bible" are not at all moral or ethical.
We can know that protecting the innocent is a moral mandate. To sit idly by when evil people hurt, kill, and take advantage of the weak is morally abhorrent.
It is in your human DNA to protect those around you.
Christ said "turn the other cheek" so that a jerk can punch you again. We can know this is wrong and irresponsible.
>>709780934
Is it appropriate as an atheist to say amen to this? Call this point a crucifixion because you nailed it!
...love me some religious puns...
>>709781016
> In a world without religion...this would be a trap thread. That makes me sad too.
You're a good man anon
(aside from the trap jokes, as I don't care if people enjoy themselves)
>>709764582
Come out, closet atheist
We see you filling your void with b8 threads
>>709780845
Im not completely knowledgeable about Orthodox Jews so I'll take your word for it. But they have a group of principles they adhere to.
>>709781098
I see where you're coming from but my pacifism is not rooted in religion. It is paradoxically the stance that causes me the least stress in the modern world. If it were another time my pacifism would be totally inappropriate but in today's age, I find it quite appropriate.
The God exists and his name is Odin, and all other religions are lies.
Prove me wrong.
>>709781016
>hat was likely intended to bring us together tears us apart.
We can know that some of the biggest in-group - out-group dynamics involve religion
"We love everyone" is total absolute bullshit. We know they love the members of their groups, and want to change the members of other groups, or destroy them.
>>709781283
Ditto, hedonism reigns supreme here anyway.
>>709781439
So, if you see your friends are being beaten and murdered before you, you sit and watch with indifference?
>>709781466
Odin was a god in perfectly good standing. He's got a point, and there are people in the world that worship Poseidon as we speak.
How can we know their god does not exist?
>>709781565
>>709781439
A true pacifist offers no protection to anyone, and will simply leave or watch when someone is raping a baby in front of them.
>>709781469
Of course but that is from the complexity inherent in drawing religious lines. All religions start in essentially the same place...we should all be good...where we divide is in what constitutes being good. It's semantics. If we left it at the core principle, no divisions, we would live in a utopia of sorts.
Our only existing god is the sun.
I know he exists because I see him every morning. Filling my skin with Vitamin C
>>709781565
Fair enough, let's amend my previous statement to say that I am pacifistic in nature most of the time unless I am experiencing negative ramifications in any given situation. That extends to being aware of negative circumstances being injured by those I care about. Outside of my own circle of influence however, I really do not care.
Prove unicorns don't exist.
Same argument.
/thread
>>709764582
There is a God
And he want you to vote frank.
So get to it: >>709765629
>>709781796
>If we left it at the core principle, no divisions, we would live in a utopia of sorts
Your damned right. Any religion that truly seeks convergence rather than divergence will be a morally superior religion.
Convergence, collaboration or cooperation has not been a feature of the major religions of the world.
>La ilaha illallah, Muhammadun rasulullah
you're all part of Islam now, the true religion.
/thread
>>709781941
Jains are truly peaceful pacifists
Fundamentalist radical Jains drink their water through cheese cloth (lest they kill a bug), sweep the floor in front of them, so they don't step on anything. They're truly pacifists.
Jainism is an ancient religion from India that teaches that the way to liberation and bliss is to live a life of harmlessness and renunciation. The aim of Jain life is to achieve liberation of the soul.
Jainism is thousands of years older than Christianity
>>709782002
So I guess that gives us the unsatisfying truth that religion is not the same thing as living in accordance So I guess that gives us the unsatisfying understanding that subscribing to a religion is not the same thing as living in accordance with this core principle. It seems to me then that the obvious way to make the world a better place is to get rid of religion and yet without any proper execution this whole conversation is an exercise in masturbation. Thoughts?
>>709782271
Thats a religion also anon lol
>>709782250
Sounds idealistic. They sound like people Inwould like to hang out with.
>>709782271
>is to get rid of religion and yet without any proper execution this whole conversation is an exercise in masturbation.
I think our conversation where others can see is useful. I believe people can and are reasoned out of their religions regularly.
We're sort of planting seeds of goodness.
>>709782411
Lol, I guess it is. How very meta.
>>709782514
Like...farmers of the mind. I like it. If you lived in Ontario, I'd bring you a bottle of wine for the chat.
>>709782417
It probably would be peaceful, but forget about a security detail that would protect you from the nearby Muslims.
The Buddhist monks in captivity from the Chinese military "wish only that they do not begin to hate their torturers".
needless to say, they don't resist their captors.
>>709782677
>Like...farmers of the mind. I like it. If you lived in Ontario, I'd bring you a bottle of wine for the chat.
I'm in Idaho and thanks for that. The world needs more peace, that is for sure.
>>709782880
Haha, that's funny. I'm headed to Idaho next month...you know what? I'm just gonna drink a glass of wine in your honour instead.
>>709764582
Yes spread the word of the Almighty and his prophet Mohammed!
Ok guys let's end this thread by counting to 3.
>>709782751
Tibetan Monks in torture and captivity
"‘COMPASSION FOR MY TORTURER’: A MEETING WITH PALDEN GYATSO"
http://www.wiseattention.org/blog/2012/04/01/palden-gyatso/
>>709765406
>people
1
2
3
>>709783077
LOL
Kill yourself quickly jackass
5
>>709765406
>The universe can not operate itself without a divine being. Can a factory operate itself without people being there? No.
Therefore, the divine being must be so incredibly complex that someone must of created him, her, it.
Who created the incredibly complex creator?
Argument from complexity fails scrutiny
>>709767176
Prove Thor doesnt exist
ok here is something i think the might make god not real or at least ignorant to his own creation, how does science exist and not "it was god", Also if it states in the bible that "all will be forgiven in the eyes of god if you repent your sins" then i can murder, rape, pillage, whatever i want as long as i repent i will go to heaven, and lastly why did he not give us something more after the bible did he not think we would live past the 10 commandments and the bible's words, we as a species have evolved so why doesn't our "god" evolve with us?
I am agnostic i believe that most things can be explained and some things that can only be seen by your own eyes and hear by your own ears.
>>709783538
You mean what created it so what is it made of and because it doesn't exist it can operate.
>>709783538
>>709783754
Who created the incredibly complex creator that created this incredibly complex creation?
Who created the even more incredibly complex creator that created the incredibly complex creator that created the creator?
There must of been hundreds of thousands of creators in a row!
>>709783754
>it doesn't exist
>so it can exist
omg
>>709783823
So the ignorance of the knowledge is divine power.
It has been like this for thousands years.
