Why aren't you voting Libertarian, /b/?
>>709083356
Because our one party system says that the system will never be rigged in favor of people who actually want to help the country.
Because the candidate is Gary Johnson.
Democracy is an illusion
Money=freedom
Not throwing away my vote
>>709083625
>implying libertarian Gary Johnson isn't just another typical libertarian
>protip: all libertarians want to dissolve the government.
>no laws
>no regulations
>>709083356
Because i am not an idiot
>>709084311
yeah you are
>>709083356
Because libertarians are closet homosexuals with violent tendencies.
>>709083356
but I am
>inb4 aleppo
>>709084019
Sheep detected
>>709083356
Because I'm an adult
because i only support the existence of whites
>>709084311
dubs are truth
>>709084094
>liberty
Because Garry Johnson is even more retarded then libertarian policies.
because the law of the jungle is just a regression of civilization evolution
Because there's not a single successful example of a libertarian society.
>>709085428
please explain
a true libertarian would love to dissolve the federal government.
they want to cripple the federal government as much as possible so the individual states have the power.
im all for states rights but libertarians take it way too far.
>>709086195
>implying you wouldn't want to live in Somalia
>inb4 muh roads
>pic related, muh roads
>>709083356
Because I'm a left libertarian (aka hippie socialist) and I don't like the "I'm happy, fuck the rest of you" attitude of the right libertarians.
Really though, if the libertarians would support a national health service, I'd be tempted. But they never will, so I won't.
>>709083625
Gary may not be ideal in many ways but when the other options are Clinton/Trump and Jill Stein, its pretty unconscionable to even consider one of the other options
>>709087698
>libertarian
>national anything
>>709087919
i might throw my vote and just randomly choose any of the official write-ins
>>709087698
>f the libertarians would support a national health service
This is 100% against what it means to be a libertarian though. Left libertarian is kind of an oxymoron, leftists are inherently statists so they could never really be libertarians
>>709087988
Yes. So you'll put up with a shitty healthcare system, where you'll pay massively over the odds, get stuck with one provider if you ever get seriously ill because no other provider will cover you at low rate, and face one day being told they won't treat you any more, because lifetime payout exceeded. Even more likely if you're poor.
But that's fine, because we didn't have to contribute towards some other poor fucker's health care. As I said "I'm happy, fuck the rest of you". It's why I'm not a libertarian.
>>709088387
>Yes. So you'll put up with a shitty healthcare system
The shittiness of our healthcare is caused by overregulation, not because its not governmenty enough
and please keep in mind that qualitywise its fucking excellent, its just really expensive because of all the burdens put on it by the government
Its absolutely absurd to think the government would be able to run it any better than it currently is
>>709088387
I don't think you understand the whole concept.
it isn't "I'm happy fuck the rest of you" its "you are responsible for yourself" those are two very different statements.
>>709088387
woah there, buddy.
a libertarian philosophy is, "my money is my money and your money is your money. i value my health so i set aside money for healthcare and emergencies....you can do whatever the fuck you want."
>>709088592
>Its absolutely absurd to think the government would be able to run it any better than it currently is
Not really. The UK health service is great, and incredibly efficient. It's major problem is that it's chronically underfunded, and most of the crap parts are typically the bits that have been quietly privatised.
No, I don't buy that argument.
>>709088387
>"I'm happy, fuck the rest of you". It's why I'm not a libertarian.
Note that voting to make other people give money to the government so it can be spent on a 3rd group of people is not charitable or altruistic. Libertarians give money to charity, the government should not be a charity
>>709088635
They're the same thing, because it is possible, through no fault of your own (cancer doesn't just strike the guilty or stupid), to end up with crippling debts, and be unable to work because of your condition. You can't get out of that situation without help. But "you're responsible for yourself" means no help is coming.
At best you'll get a loan, but you're still fucked either way.
>>709088770
literally everythign the government touches goes to shit. It always results in things costing more and quality going down. Look at the Post Office or the DMV, or any government bureaucracy for that matter, it never outperforms the free market
>>709089005
>cancer doesn't just strike the guilty or stupid
like 50% of it is from smoking or tanning
>>709089005
>what is health insurance?
I was all for Rand.
Gary Johnson doesn't represent the type of libertarian that I want and he won't win anyway.
I'm a mix of libertarian want social democracy on the level of my state and a little bit of GOP, while on social issues I'm pretty liberal.
I'm a pretty mixed up hodgepodge of views and don't know many people who think like me.
Feels bad man
I'd say that it'd be throwing away my vote, but i ain't voting anyways.
Gary Johnson has ideals that i do agree with, but his stances on issues like global warming worry me. I am a huge supporter of nuclear energy, and he wants to open more coal mines, like wtf bro
>>709083356
I like social programs.
Fuck you and your bootstraps.
>>709083356
I've voted Ron Paul every election since I could vote, and I'll write him in this year.
Gary Johnson is a fucking idiot.
>>709089151
Health insurance is something that costs a huge amount of your income if you're poor, and can easily be lost if you get ill and can't work. And good luck finding health insurance if you've been seriously ill already. Pre-existing condition, fuck you!
>>709089188
Its not like voting for Trump or Hillary is any less throwing away your vote
>>709089257
Guess what man, if you live in a blue state you can vote in a libertarian president and it would still make sense. You can just have the social programs you want on a state level.
>>709083356
Because I'm old enough to vote.
>>709089058
Yeah, that's really not the case with the NHS. Sorry, it's actually a really good and very efficient system. It just needs more funding.
>>709089337
Thats not how preexisting conditions work. Preexisting conditions just means that you cannot wait until you get sick to start buying insurance and expect them to pay for it, that would be no different than waiting to buy car insurance until after you have already gotten in an accident
>>709083625
Why do so many libertarians seem to dislike Johnson? I'm not a fan of libertarianism at all, so I haven't paid a lot of attention to this guy specifically. Just curious.
>>709089381
I find this view so weird. Libertarian is the most old man ideology that I can think of. When I think of young people and political affiliation, the last thing I think of is libertarian.
>>709089449
>It just needs more funding.
It always needs more funding when the government is involved
and just because it is not fucking awful does not suggest it wouldn't be much better in a capitalist system. Almost everything in the world ends up better under capitalism
>>709089541
He's not Ron Paul or Rand Paul.
>>709083356
Because Trump
>>709089541
I like him ok, but basically he is libertarian light. The hard line insane libertarians hate him for being too centrist, they would have rather had a candidate that fucking no one outside the current ranks of their party would ever consider voting for. Luckily the pragmatist side of the party won the nomination
>>709089758
But Trump has no fucking shot.
>>709089679
at least he is still in the race unlike rand paul.
what is so great about ron paul
isnt he shilling dehyrators or some prepper prdocut?
>>709089679
Rand wouldn't even be associated with libertarians if it weren't for his dad.
>>709089679
Ron was surely the best option at the time in 2008, but he has become something of a religious fanatic as he approaches senility
Because libertarianism is astrology for men.
>>709089951
Ron Paul represented libertarianism accurately in my eyes.
>>709089984
He was easily the most libertarian candidate for the republicans. Every debate he was pretty much just a little more republican leaning than his dad.
>>709083356
I have an IQ above 20.
>>709090052
That's utterly meaningless and I'm not going to engage you beyond this.
>>709089984
Rand is surely more libertarian than the vast majority of congressmen, though far from being an actual libertarian.
Still had he won the republican nomination he would probably beat Hillary and America would be better off for it
>>709083625
This. Gary Johnson is not a real libertarian.
However, I would've loved Rand Paul to be president, tbqh.
>>709090198
I was pretty sad when he dropped out. One of the debates he really killed it.
>>709090052
are women not embarrassed by the fact that most democrats actually believe in actual fucking astrology
>>709089679
This. All I want is true liberty, is that too much to ask?
>>709090157
65 is an achievement for you :^)
>>709090198
Gary is surely more libertarian than Rand
>>709090194
I'm a Bernout, and disagree completely with Rand on most issues, but he seems like a decent dude at least tbh. Unlike either Hillary or Trump.
>>709090337
It is when our republic has been bought and functions as a business asset of MNC's thatdon't give a fuck about us.
>>709087698
I'm an Stalinist Anarchocapitalist.
>>709090282
Definitely. Both Hillary and Trump are too authoritarian, so my my vote would most definitely have gone to Rand. He seems to represent the ideals of true freedom. Don't get me wrong, there are some things that I don't agree with him on, but he was definitely the best candidate.
>>709089607
It's underfunded because we spend less on the NHS than most of the rest of Europe, but it still does a fantastic job. Privatising it will do nothing to help, and has generally damaged the NHS when it's been implemented.
Don't forget, the US spend more than twice as much as the UK on healthcare, and you still end up with not everyone getting covered.
Sure, there may be parts where that money means the US get the best treatment, but if people are missing out, then it's not good enough.
>>709083356
Because Libertarianism has never resulted in longterm success either economically, nationally or geopolitically.
Source: name a successful, 1st world libertarian nation. PROTIP you cannot.
>>709089679
Johnson actually ran a state.
Ron is nothing more than a Glenn Beck or Trump of the libertarian party.
>promising things that could never happen and having a cult like following.
>open borders
>supports race mixing
LMFAO
>>709089541
Because many Libertarians don't know what a successful politician looks like
>>709090518
He's already an idiot, no need to mock him.
>>709088770
Correct on the NHS.
>>709090598
Singapore. Sort of. Although it is a tax haven, so collects taxes from all over the world, and the government spends a lot on its citizens. Actually... not Singapore.
>>709090598
Because Communism has never resulted in longterm success either economically, nationally or geopolitically.
Source: name a successful, 1st world communist nation. PROTIP you cannot.
>>709090487
But it could be argued that they're getting away with it because of the amount of "lobbying" (Practically legal bribery of government officials) and creating clear conflicts of interests. Rand wanted to end that, and he really stressed it.
>>709090600
I don't care what his experience is if he doesn't align with my views.
>>709090765
china
>>709090555
>Don't forget, the US spend more than twice as much as the UK on healthcare, and you still end up with not everyone getting covered.
but the coverage is way the fuck better, survival rates for disease near across the board are better in American than anywhere else
>>709089590
old men hate liberty. It's dangerous and scary. Youth love liberty, because fuck you I won't do what you tell me.
>>709090765
What on earth made you kneejerk about commies? I'm not a leftist, nice try though kid.
>>709090772
I agree.
>>709090703
Ironically all the people responding to that dude are too stupid to realize that you can want civil liberties to be backed and like public programs. Leftist libertarian is a thing believe it or not.
>>709087698
>>709088387
>Libertarian
>Wants a socialist national healthcare system
Are you fucking retarded? I don't think you know what a "libertarian" is.
>>709090598
It would only come from a unique culture like the US. We have practiced it in the past and were successful.
>>709090765
If they didn't keep having dictators, maybe they'd do better. And any time a communist country looks like they might be doing okay, the US steps in and messes everything up, because hell if they'll let communism succeed.
>>709090860
Maybe the US should just pick one person to keep very healthy, maybe keep him alive forever. Then, we win, right?
>>709090598
Sure there has never been a far libertarian nation, but keep in mind that modern libertarianism is basically the same thing as classical liberalism which was incredible influential for the entire west and is the reason the west became the most advanced and prosperous part of the world
>>709090865
Is this opposite day?
>>709090943
I don't think you understand how nuanced political affiliation can be. He can want all things libertarian along with universal healthcare. It is called leftist libertarian.
>>709083356
Because I know what it means. Also there really isn't a libertarian running this time even if I was stupid enough to vote for one.
>>709090860
Ahahaha! No they're not.
http://time.com/2888403/u-s-health-care-ranked-worst-in-the-developed-world/
>>709090392
At its core? Maybe. I don't think so, but I can see the argument for your claim.
Rand Paul is more of a "libertarian nationalist" which I really like, so I guess I'm a little biased.
I just wish that Gary Johnson would have more of a backbone, he comes off as pretty timid.
>>709091042
>the US steps in and messes everything up
Maybe the US should pick better leaders then.
>>709091030
Bullshit. It's a stretch to call any period of US history 'libertarian'.
Nigga pls.
>>709083356
>>709081773
>>709081773
>>709081773
MAKE /b/ GREAT AGAIN
>>709090860
Stop embarrassing us. The US healthcare system is shit unless you're rich.
>>709090843
China didn't even start becoming remotely successful until it dropped communism and moved toward libertarianism. Obviously still way the fuck away from libertarianism but it is quite obvious that that general move has dramatically helped them as a nation (though they have a long fucking way to go before being on par with the 1st world which adopted these ideas well over 100 years ago)
>>709091276
Everything except Fox news and Breitbart is owned by George Soros, and, therefore, ineligible as evidence when arguing on the internet.
>>709091201
>leftist libertarian
Is that like a catist dog? What the fuck are you even muttering about?
>>709090787
That is exactly why nobody listens to your views. They are dumb and incapable of successfully running a state.
>>709090865
>old men hate liberty. It's dangerous and scary. Youth love liberty,
Not in America, the youth like Bernie fucking Sanders, the antithesis of liberty
>>709091327
You realize that libertarians are basically just constitutionalists right? It's the old way of doing things.
>>709090943
>another idiot who thinks political persuasion is a purity test rather than a spectrum
>what is basic poli sci 101?
Kys faggot
>>709090943
I'm using the definition from the Political Compass, where Libertarian is the opposite to Authoritarian, and isn't necessarily synonymous with Libertarianism (which it labels as Right Libertarian). Feel free to say I'm using those words wrongly, but that's what I'm taking it from.
>>709083356
because Libertarians are just neocons but even MORE enslaved to coporate swine
Used to be a libertarian, then I realized it's just a front for young republicans who want to be edgy dicks to everyone who doesn't fit their mold.
>>709090843
>Has 1 billion people
>Still Can't compete with the rest of the world
>National Workforce has severe depression and amphetamine problem
>Citizens all want to kill themselves
China is shit, Desu.
>>709091483
Again, bullshit. No.
>>709091426
you are the problem.
>liberal conservative!??? that makes no sense!
>a conservative liberal???! pick one, you asswipe!
>>709091201
It's opposite generation. When I was a kid it was cool to go AGAINST the system and our parents and grandparents hated it.
>>709091354
>The US healthcare system is shit unless you're rich.
No, the US system is pretty good unless you are poor. for the top 90% of Americans it works well
>>709091447
Yeah. I noticed. Sad and scary
>>709091521
Neocons and democrats are the same fucking thing now, and nothing at all like libertarians
Libertarians are almost the exact opposite of Neocons
>>709091426
Look it up yourself I'm not spoonfeeding you.
>>709091427
You could pick anyone, pick a candidate they don't align with, say that and it would still make no fucking sense.
>>709091587
>focus on civil liberties and free market
>respecting the constitution
It's not complicated, well for you it is.
>>709091609
Look up our stats, they are embarrassing. The average American has the worst healthcare in the developed world and people die in the because they cannot pay. This is not up for debate.
>>709091609
How isn't it great if you're poor? My wife's best friend is a worthless bitch who has never worked a day in her life. Her husband is the same. They never pay a fucking dime and get all the healthcare they want from medicaid. Free prescriptions, free fucking aspirin, hell they even get a free first aid kit every year.
>>709091201
>He can want all things libertarian along with universal healthcare.
>Universal healthcare that you are FORCED to pay by the state so you can look after people that you don't want to, and if you refuse they throw you in prison
Do you see the contradiction with your statement now? National healthcare funded by taxes is, quite literally, the opposite of libertarianism.
>>709091604
The problem is no one teaches civics any more. These imbeciles are so caught up in manufactured right/left differences. It's like fucking team colours and the 'teams' are waaay more similar than they are different despite what they're taught to believe.
>>709084094
Not all Libertains want to completely get rid if Government. The majority want at least a night watchman Gov.
And Gov or no Gov they'll always be laws cos they'll always be the Common Law.
Because you guys have moron who knows zero foreign policy at the top of your ticket.
>>709083356
But what is Aleppo OP?
>>709091966
Alright anon, what would you label someone with all libertarian ideas and wanted universal healthcare. I hope you realize there's a lot more to libertarianism than free market.
>>709091966
Stop. They can just make words mean whatever they want now and if you argue you're being "stupid and mean". They'll call the campus police in a minute and you'll be facing b&e charges for infiltrating their safe space.
>>709091483
This. America was, at its core, founded upon libertarian views.
>>709092115
A child.
>>709091880
>The average American has the worst healthcare in the developed world
this just isn't true at all
>>709091609
Ranked number 1 in the world for spending, but number 31 in the world for healthcare. Sorry, not that impressed. The UK is ranked 18th, and 26th for spending. Not as good as France (1st for healthcare, 4th for spending), but at least we pay a lot less.
The US pays 1.5x as much a France for an inferior service, it's really pretty crap that that's possible.
>>709091966
What you're alluding to is anarchy i.e. no government at all to regulate anything.
Libertarianism is more of a "do no wrong" type deal. As long as what you do is not affecting others in a negative way, please, go ahead and smoke all the crack you want. You just might get taxed on the crack you smoke to subsidize your dumb ass getting over your addiction when you realize how stupid that was.
>>709092170
This is a good defense mechanism for someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
Know your place.
>>709092254
Cute. What's the name of that political affiliation. I'll do your work for you because you're incompetent. It's called a leftist libertarian.
>>709092340
The numbers say otherwise. I've given up on people who do not accept this obvious reality.
>>709092091
He knows enough not to send our troops to random ass foreign wars which is more that Hillary and Trump know
OP here, I asked a simple question and some of you are flippin out. Nice!
>>709092357
Its a little misleading because Americans also make more money than anyone else
>>709092115
It's called have your cake and eat it too, ie a child. You can't say stay out of my business except for the business I want you to pay for. That is a childish ideology and should be ridiculed no matter what fake name you give it.
>>709092115
I would label that person as someone who is economically socialist with libertarian societal views.
I know what you're trying to say, and I get it, but for future situations just make the distinction clear.
For example, I'm not a pure libertarian, because I don't believe that national boarders should be unanimously open. There's levels to political views and the more specific one can be, the better.
>>709084512
>closet homosexuals with violent tendencies.
Trap thread posters on /b/?
>>709083356
I am
>>709088770
>The UK health service is great, and incredibly efficient
It is not! As soon as you give the government a monopoly on something efficiency goes out the window.
The problem with NHS is it was designed by the Liberals and Labour during a time of rationing. Rationing of food and petrol and stuff was supposed to end with the war in 1945, but it didn't, Labour kept it going indefinitely and it was eventually ended by the Tories in 1954.
Except they made the NHS the exception. The NHS is a system for rationing healthcare when there isn't enough to go around. And that's why you get waiting lists and the post code lottery for treatment, that's the method of rationing.
If we'd been a smart country, we'd have copied the German health care system
>>709092170
Kek I just don't understand how someone can argue for national healthcare systems while calling it a libertarian policy. It's a contradiction at its finest.
>>709092711
Libertariansm has multiple main tenets and classical liberalism really isn't the most important one. If you keep all the tenets but ditch private healthcare for public, you're a leftist libertarian. Only autists are this absolutist about ideology.
>>709092806
Anon I'm not making the term up, it's already a political term. You can shorted economically socialist with libertarian societal views to leftist libertarian and the only people who will start their heavy flow period will be sexually frurstrated /b/tards who are angry at concepts that they don't understand.
I'm using the Political Compass for my definition. Don't get too hung up on whether you agree with the definition or not. We're arguing policies here, not semantics.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
>>709093031
Because you don't understand that classical liberalism is not the main tenet of libertarianism. Civil liberties and a less aggressive foreign policy is and have always been the focus. Stay out of my business and don't make me pay for wars.
You know why I'm right? Because you still can't come up with a term for it, because I've told you what it is and you threw a tantrum about it.
>>709092414
What? Don't be a fool. When did I ever state that the government wouldn't regulate anything?
The government still exists and enforces contracts between citizens and does the tasks put forth in the Constitution and what congress/ the states decide, but they don't get involved in the private affairs. Healthcare should be handled by independent businesses, and the prices will be regulated by the market and how much the customers are willing to pay for it. There is no need for the government to take over a multi billion dollar industry when it can be handled by the people.
>>709092599
Lol Welcome to 4chan!
>>709093028
Actually healthcare is something you do want to have a monopoly on. As soon as you have different insurers, they've each got to make their own deals with drug companies. The UK makes one deal for the entire country, and ideally gets the lowest bidder for every drug.
Don't forget that healthcare isn't really something you can choose to ignore, of you've got diabetes, sometimes going to have to treat you or you're going to die soon, so you're forced to get something. Better one provider that has the lowest bid, than a choice of providers who are all compromising somewhere.
>>709093310
But what if I want my money to pay for wars and not your smoking and obesity related diseases? That's why it's impossible to be a libertarian of any kind and preach about Public healthcare.
>>709093482
The government is handled by the people, so by extension universal healthcare would be healthcare by the people.
>>709093633
Cool, I'll continue having your mom do my prostate exams.
>>709093550
Smoking brings in so much tax that they pay for their treatments 5 times over. Also smokers die young from cheap diseases, unlike old proud ego cost a fortune in dementia care.
You want people to smoke. It's great for the economy.
Cause I grew up.
>>709093740
With her tongue, right?
>>709093773
Old proud ego? Old people. Stupid fucking autocorrect.
>>709093550
If all of your other views besides those were libertarian, you would still be considered a libertarian, but leaning toward the GOP side.
These things aren't cut and dry, the words we use to describe political affiliation cannot come close to describing the complexity and nuance.
Everyone doesn't fit in a neat little box and it can get pretty ambiguous. Regardless, if you mostly hold libertarian views you are a type of libertarian.
This is not fucking difficult you squishy headed retard.
>>709083625
This.
Voted Constitution Party already.
And I will continue to do so.
Return autonomy to the states, tying federal money to the willingness to give up state autonomy is unconstitutional and therefore illegal. It is a HUGE part of the reason we are so divided socially right now. The mess this country is in is nothing more than a pilot program for globalization. The fact that it is tearing us apart as a country is the only reason the libs are so desperate to implement the plan before everyone else in the world realizes that it doesn't work.
>>709083356
Because Libertarianism has already been in play in a de facto state in the this country's history. People realized that it sucked balls and got away from it.
>>709093082
Definition of libertariansm- an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.
You are literally FUCKING RETARDED if you believe a libertarian can support a NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM RUN BY THE GOVERNMENT.
Goddammit, you have to be 18 years old to post here. Either learn about the subject or gtfo this board.
>>709083356
>Why aren't you voting Libertarian, /b/?
Because Libertarians are all pick any of
1. Social retards
2. Criminals
3. Sociopaths
4. Wannabe Quislings
5. Class traitors
>>709089449
It's not good in any way. Go to Europe and they have universal healthcare, free at the point use, and no waiting lists, by having Gov provided health insurance. And oh look, they always finish above the UK for healthcare ratings.
>>709087698
I think you're a jill stien
>>709093550
this. The Anon you replied to is a fucking moron, don't waste your time on him.
>>709093812
Naw, I like it dry a finger is fine.
Sorry, it's 3am here and I (the left libertarian pro NHS fag) have to go to sleep now. Good luck with the rest of the thread!
>>709084019
Really?
Voting for Clinton or Trump is not throwing away your vote???
Your vote, dumbass, is you saying that you believe the person you vote for is the most qualified candidate for the job. If you vote for Clinton or Trump just because you think they are the only ones who stand a chance of winning, then YOU are the one throwing your vote away. (Along with your self respect and integrity.)
>>709094270
Do you mean awakist sleep? Faggot...
Because the environment
>>709090598
England and America pre-1900.
They were pretty successful, huh?
>>709093633
No, the constitution CLEARLY shows the legal difference between the government and private parties/the people. If I want to help someone, I'll do it myself, I don't need the government to force me to do anything.
Please educate yourself before posting here.
>>709087919
Darrell Castle.
Constitution Party.
>>709087698
I don't think there's anything inconsistent about wanting national healthcare and being a libertarian. Libertarians aren't against public good, they just expect those good to actually meet the definition of a public good: non rival, non exclude-able consumption. Granted, I don't think any of the major nationalized healthcare proposals meet that definition, but I think a case could be made for the right program.
Same goes for a true welfare safety net, although most modern welfare programs are just subsidizing the consumption of interest groups.
>>709089541
Cause he's a tard.
>>709091364
it hasn't moved towards libertarianism, it's moved towards state capitalism. In China, government is always the solution.
>>709094519
goods*
>>709094465
>Promote the general welfare
What did they mean by this?
>>709094096
>he thinks laissez faire is specifically about economics
You're a lost cause.
>>709094519
Except for the part where it requires huge amounts of taxation and no responsibility is imposed on the receiving end. "Common good" is a bit broad.
>>709093541
Actually the NHS usually goes for the highest bidder. that's what happens when government has a monopoly - legalised corruption.
>>709094519
>>709094519
Here is the definition of libertarianism, and you tell me whether or not a NATIONAL healthcare system contradicts it.
Libertarianism- an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.
National healthcare is the OPPOSITE of minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.
>>709094600
>it's moved towards state capitalism
Yeah, which is closer to libertarianism than their previous system
>>709090194
Worst part is that the GOP's retarded voter base would never vote for him.
>>709094958
they would over Hillary, but yeah not for the party nomination
>>709083356
I'm going to vote for him because the two main choices are horrible but he's kind of a kiss ass to black lives matter. The media currently tells most Americans what to think and the stupid assholes believe it. We act like we have a choice but we don't.
>>709094519
>I don't think there's anything inconsistent about wanting national healthcare and being a libertarian
Taxation is theft and it takes away choice from the individual.
>>709093398
Accurate as fuck
>>709094874
Do you understand that state intervention in the lives of citizens is usually about cops arresting you for shit that you're doing? It's more about, don't shoot my dog because I have weed or search my shit without a warrant than it is about pooling money for medicine.
You're missing a huge part of this and you haven't even begun to grasp it.
>>709083356
Trump shares a lot of views that Libertarians do.... so instead of wasting my vote on someone that has no chance at becoming President, I'll vote for Trump.
>>709094874
Depends on what you consider 'minimal intervention'.
I think rectifying true market failures is a perfectly fine, basic operation of a government.
Communal funding to allow for the consumption of public goods that otherwise would not be made (free-rider problems, etc.) in a free market system is fine. Not really different from roads or natl. defense or whatever.
>>709083356
Because it's just a party of wishful thinking, non action, failed republicans with a sense of entitlement and disdain for poor people.
>>709094766
Libertarians don't want the government to interfere with their lives socially or economically, how do you not understand this?
It's literally right in front of your face. Myself and many other Anon's on this board have showed you, but for some reason you refuse to see the truth. Libertarianism and national healthcare conflict on their basic principles, this is as clear and plain as the nose on your face.
>>709094883
not if the government still has full control, and it does. Libertarianism at its core is about shrinking government. In China the government is bigger than ever thanks to all the new wealth. China is a country that kidnaps foriegn citizens from Hong Kong and Thailand because they sell books about the President.
>>709095103
Yes, but choice is the last thing you need in healthcare. Because people who need life saving medicine have no choice other than pay up or die.
>>709095230
He's going to keep insulting you because he has too much pride about this for some reason.
>>709095344
Because this is nuanced. If you subscribe to all the tenets of an ideology but falter partially on one of them, then you are still under that ideology. Most people don't fit perfectly to an ideology, but they are still considered to fall under it.
He's also not talking about full socialism, he really just mentioned universal healthcare.
I know other anons didn't get this, but you're the last one left who is too stubborn or simple to understand this.
>>709083356
because i strongly believe in regulation
>>709095230
True. Roads and national defense conflict with true libertarianism, and I don't have an answer on what is the true best option. I guess at the en of the day it's what you value more; liberty or order. The government CAN force you to do everything, but you're practically a slave at that point. I'd like to believe that we still have the freedom to do as we please, for better or for worse.
>>709095196
Trump is actually a democrat in disguise. He's just running as a republican because all the fucking rednecks are dumb enough to vote for him.
>>709095515
>Yes, but choice is the last thing you need in healthcare
no, it's the most important thing. In Germany government provides insurance along with private insurances and all hospitals are private. So you can choose which one to go to.
In the UK there's no choice. You go where government says and do what say cos lefty dogma would rather you die using the NHS than live going private.
the result of this? German healthcare is better than British health care in every measurable way. Choice improves everything.
>>709095103
Even the most steadfast libertarians believe in an exchange rate between some liberty and consumption.
I think we'd all agree that the liberty to choose who to kill is a fine thing to give up in exchange for common order.
Libertarians just have an extremely high elasticity of demand when it comes to the consumption of goods that cost liberty. I happen to think that genuine public goods are worth spending some liberty on (roads, defense, etc.).
>>709095725
It's like I'm Christian I just don't believe in Jesus. Everything else is cool, it's just that one little thing so I'm still totally a Christian.
>>709095725
I'm not insulting anyone, that is a different Anon. And by the way, libertarians don't agree with funding roads or an aggressive military,
>>709095957
At least we don't need to rely on gofundme every time we get something nasty.
Heh, gofundme, it's like young people practically reinvented socialism to get around the shitty US healthcare system.
>>709095957
This. You know what is best for you. I'm a fully capable individual, I don't need the government to make my decisions for me.
>>709083356
Why aren't libertarians trying to take over the GOP??
>>709096118
Except for libertarianism has multiple tenets, not just one. I seriously can't believe how many times I've had to repeat this to you.
>>709096122
Not for aggressive military. As for roads, this is not as simple as you think. All Americans live under three separate governments. Just because the Feds don't want to pay for roads doesn't mean that the states or localities won't.
It's not like you get a libertarian president and then no one funds the roads anymore.
>>709096115
Correct. That's why I agree with funding with what is stated in the Constitution, and everything else is bullshit. I'll build/make my own life by myself and those that I want to associate myself with. I I don't want a single cent of my paycheck going to overdosing heroin addicts in a hospital, and on the off chance that I do, I'll take the cash out of my own pocket and donate it myself.
>>709096552
You can repeat wrong shit as much as you like, it won't make it right.
>>709095892
Sounds reasonable to me. I like to believe that in a free and open society, getting the perfect tuning for the public consumption for liberty machine would be a booby prize. Whether natl healthcare really is the *best* option probably doesn't matter; what's really important is that everyone simply acknowledges what are real public goods vs subsidization.
Unfortunately, when everyone is convinced that the other guy (political party) can and will take the shirts off their back, it's impossible to have open and honest discourse about taste in public goods. :(
>>709096556
The constitution does not say that you can't be taxed to help other people. It's hilarious that you think it does though.
>>709096552
Libertarians believe that the government shouldn't be in charge of roads at all Anon! Companies will take that responsibility. Come on, that's like libertarianism 101 lol
>>709096666
Alright so we've gotten to the point where you're flat out denying that an ideology has multiple tenets to keep an argument going that you've already lost.
Get your shit together.
>>709084019
Tactical voting is the cancer that kills democracies. Congrats on being complicit.
>>709096300
Yes. I've got cancer, so I'm going to choose to... well pay someone. Who will give me the best deal? That much?! Shit, well I guess I'll have to pay it then, it's either Christmas or my brain explodes. Such a shame I'm just one person trying to make a deal for myself, rather than a government trying to made a deal for everyone, there's no way that could possibly be more efficient.
>>709096750
No anon, you've been swallowing misinformation and memes. What do you think a libertarian president would stop states and towns from paying for roads?
No dip, the feds just wouldn't fund it.
>>709096750
What you're describing is anarcho-capitalism btw, not libertarianism.
>>709096122
Who are you to say what libertarians all believe? Have you taken a poll? Every Libertarian believes in at least some govt intervention, otherwise there'd be no need for the term libertarian; they'd just be anarchists.
>>709096672
Exactly. My problem i that I don't trust the government one bit and that it'll abuse its power and grow larger and more corrupt with every chance it gets.
For that reason, I don't support the government becoming larger for ANY reason. Check out this link on the "Totalitarian tip-toe". It really changed my views on how government can break both your legs, hand you a crutch, and then convince you that you wouldn't be able to walk without it.
http://aconsciousoutpost.blogspot.com/2009/02/totalitarian-tiptoe.html
>>709089541
His VP wants to ban guns.
>>709096993
He bought into memes and misinformation. I don't think there's any ideology that is so consistently misrepresented.
Whoever started spreading the idea that anarcho-capitalism and libertarianism are the same thing should be slapped.
>>709083356
simple. they don't win in a binary political system that we have. it's a waste of a vote honestly. not now... maybe in the future with better leaders. it needs a movement to ever make it here.
>>709096877
this
Don't fool yourself into thinking that your vote will make a difference if you vote for a mainstream candidate; your vote is worthless either way so you might as well vote for who you actually like.
>>709096776
There is no libertarian tenet that I've ever heard that expands the power of the federal government.
>>709083625
Anon does make a good point.
Libertarian party needs some one smart but maybe even more importantly charismatic. Gary Johnson and his whiney voice and dad jeans has the swag of that high school art teacher that tells you "please call me Gary my dad is Mr. Johnson" and wants to be your friend.
>>709096679
You're a socialist, Anon. Get over it.
Socialism- a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
I'll pass on your shitty national socialist healthcare system. I wish my taxes didn't go towards it.
>>709097115
Where did u hear this
>>709083356
Mostly because I'm not a drooling moron.
>>709097593
Who are you voting for?
>>709097518
>there's no room between an-cap and socialism
>single payer healthcare can only exist in socialist states
Wow buddy you should consider some more reading. This is painful.
>>709096882
Have you interacted with Obamacare yet? It's fucking abysmal. I've tried. It's shit. My insurence provider is a maillion times better thatn that horseshit. Do you know why? Because I looked at the market, found what worked for me, and formed a contract between myself and them.
The government doesn't care about you. They are inefficient and slow, especially when it comes to healthcare. Don't be a fool.
>>709097336
I never said there was. How many times were you dropped on your head as a child?
>>709096975
Shit, you're right lol. My fault, I feel pretty foolish right now.
>>709097336
Expands the federal government...from what?
From it's current state? We can't possibly fathom what public goods we might need in a society 2000 years from now.
From nothingness? Libertarians believe in minimal intervention, not no intervention.
>>709097828
>he thinks obamacare is universal healthcare
>>709097928
Don't worry about it man, at least you know that you got it wrong and aren't a stupid cunt about it like the other guy. There's a lot of misinformation out there.
>>709097828
Obamacare is just cronyism. Insurance companies lobbied more content into that bill that any other group. Including democratic lawmakers.
> Hurr Durr reduction in competition benefits consumers
>>709089590
You might be suprised. 90% of people are sheep anyway, and glom on to what their parents feed them if they like their family, or the polar opisite if they don't.
The other ~10% are internet junkies that understand the implications of world events from a suprisingly young age. Sometimes that manafests (what I see) as a desire to create a world they want to live in. Idealism is still alive in the youth today, its that just the sheep that are getting more and more entitled, and they drown out the fre good seeds in the bunch.
Source: one semester as a TA for a college professor teaching a political science to class of 16 year olds. It was initially deeply depressing, but I think there's hope.
>>709097766
I have no more time to waste on you. You are quite literally the most fucking stupid individual I've ever had the displeasure of interacting with on this website. Having the government run A MULTI-BILLIONE DOLLAR INDUSTRY can never be a part of a libertarian ideology, and anyone who thinks so has early signs of autism. Kys and go play in traffic.
>>709083800
Which is why they have to raise taxes
>>709085428
I believe the word you are looking for is "than".
>retarded.
I don't think you are qualified to make that assessment.
>>709097969
No, I think it's national healthcare. You know, what we've been talking about this whole time.
What would you call it?
>>709089984
If Rand isnt a libertarian, I want to join whatever party he represents.
>>709097843
This is like a Jews for Jesus argument. Yes, there are multiple tenets to any ideology. No, if you don't follow all of them it doesn't necessarily mean you don't follow that ideology. The problem is when you have a belief that is in complete dissonance with the basic point of the ideology. It is the circular reasoning of a fucking child.
>>709084640
Same
Because Johnson has fried his brain.
>>709083356
Because libertarians are too obsessed with abuses of government power, but not nearly concerned enough about abuses of private power.
>>709098627
This.
Rand 4 Prez
>>709091104
Im glad someone on /pol/ has actually taken a political science class.
I want Perot back.
>>709098600
No, it's a very poor system that forces you to buy insurance from private companies.
>>709098421
> Ad hominem
> Ad hominem
> Unexplained assertion
> Ad hominem
wow what a great argument ur right thanks for the info
>>709098273
Exactly. Another reason I can't support the government being in charge of a multi-billionaire dollar industry; there's a clear conflict of interest! Too much money to be made by corrupt politicians.
>>709098958
Here is the libertarian party with concerns to national healthcare.
Please give it a read, then hopefully you will see how libertarians can't support national healthcare being run by the government off of contradicting principles alone.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Libertarian_Party_Health_Care.htm
>>709084019
>implying your single vote will change the outcome
We're just numbers. If enough numbers vote libertarian the Democrats and Republicans will see that and take a more libertarian policies to not lose control of their monopoly
>>709098830
Rand looked good in the debate and in a sane role would have gotten the nomination
>>709099024
I definitely sympathize, but that's not a critique of nationalized healthcare. That's a criticism of the American political system and tribalism.
I think anyone who has ever advocated for any policy proposal has done so under the assumption that the administration of said policy would not be subject to corruption.
>>709099406
I have no doubt he would have beaten Hillary in this election.
He's a good speaker and has a spotless track record, Hillary would have been defeated by Wiki-Leaks alone.
>>709099425
Which is why I (and many others) have came to the conclusion that the smaller the government, the more liberty will be available.
>>709099425
Do you believe Obamacare is constitutional?
>>709099509
Agreed.
>>709083356
If I was voting for purely social issues then yeah Mr. "What's Aleppo" would have my vote.
>>709099347
ontheissues.com does not determine what constitutes an ideology. Nor do the political leaders of an idealogy in any given period.
All that matters is the definition of libertarianism and whether or not a stance is reconcilable with that definition.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism
ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/
noun
an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.
You say 'minimal intervention' cannot include natl healthcare. I say it probably won't, but it's not categorically impossible. That's literally all im saying,
>>709099509
>spotless
No one is spotless once they run for president. Whether they are or not
>>709099764
Hell no. Tenth amendment is so fucking clear. But I wouldn't be opposed to an amendment for the right program.
>>709099908
Well I'm glad we can both see the wisdom in that, but I just don't see how you can justify national healthcare as being "minimal state intervention". It is, after all, a multi-billion dollar industry that will effect every American's lives, either saving them or dooming them.
>>709100091
Agree with you on the tenth Amendment part. The new amendment part, not so match. In fact, I would never support it lol
>>709099949
>Authoritarians Framing Rand Paul and smearing his good name
REEEEEEEEEEEE DOWN WITH CORRUPT POLITICIANS
>>709083356
Because anyone who believes the gold standard, a tried-and-failed method, is still a good idea in this day and age, after all the economic theory and history that's been discussed is a complete and utter fucking moron.
We all like the idea of freedom. We used to have it. But what we have now is corporate cronyism run amok. This *isn't* democracy, and libertarianism isn't necessary. All we need to do is oust the corrupt sociopaths currently running us into the ground.
>>709083356
Because idiots fail to read on the views and stands of the candidates and as such are running like chickens with their heads cut off and voting for who their buddies are voting for, see hail mein fuhrer people all over B and the Hillary shrills. If they took the time to read what Johnson is about.....we'd be having his ass in the Whitehouse come January.....but no
>>709100205
I guess I just see people not dying of preventable disease the same way I see stuff like law enforcement and roads. My enjoyment of the fact that I wont ever die because of a preventable disease does not affect anyone else's enjoyment (non-rival). No one who lives in a society in which everyone knows they wont die from preventable diseases can remove themselves from the benefit (non-excludable).
It passes the public good test, so it's just a matter of taste from there.
>>709097198
You're vote doesn't make a difference anyway! When the person who you voted for gets in, do you really think 'Yes! They got in because I voted for them!' So you feel like a winner?
Just vote for who you want, your vote won't make a difference either way.
>>709100928
That's right. That's why national healthcare is a socialist ideology, and not libertarian ideology.
>>709101749
...I don't understand. Libertarianism is A-OK with public goods, provided that they do not conflict with the idea of minimal intervention.
If a society collectively believes that basic healthcare is a fundamental public good, then there's no conflict.
Being a libertarian v socialist has nothing to do with your tastes. I have fucking horrible taste.
>>709084019
That castle is built on sand, man. The attitude only persists because we allow it to persist.
>>709102200
Why do you believe that healthcare should be handled by the government and not private corporations and businesses?
I don't support the government being in charge of it because it impedes on a free market and because I don't want my hard-earned money going to recovering heroin addicts.
>>709102548
I think natl healthcare is a true public good. Most bad things that happen in society originate from fear. Fear of disease and fear of insolvency due to medical costs are a source of great and terrible fear for many people. In the same way that people can't opt out of the benefit of having an interstate system, you can't opt out of the benefit of living in a society free from fear.
If we don't provide these things publicly, they won't exist. While insurance would most certainly still exist in private markets *the societal belief that you wont ever die from disease or go broke because of it* would not exist.
I want dat. Other people might not want dat at the cost of production. If we live in a society where more people don't want dat, that's fine. But that's just a taste issue, not an issue of principles.
>>709103279
But you are forcing people to do something that they don't want to do. In a country that states freedom and liberty are its pillars, the government takes your hard earned money for something that you don't want (healthcare). Do you not see the conflict that arises from this, and how national healthcare is a socialist ideology that conflicts with the very basis of the American manifesto?
>>709103650
I don't care about the american manifesto? I care about living in a society that works.
We force people to do shit they don't want to do all the time.
> I want to murder some guy
> anon no
>>709084094
Try to keep up, son; you really don't know what libertarians are, do you?
It's okay, ignorance isn't a crime.
>>709103918
But murdering someone is impeding on another person's rights, just as the government redistributing my wealth to those that aren't deserving of it is impeding on my rights.
It takes away incentive to work for yourself. Why be a hard worker when you can just stay at home and have the government gib you all the benefits you need to survive?
>>709104064
Seriously.
I don't think I've ever heard a critique of libertarianism...EVER.
All anyone ever says is a flavor of 'Anarchism is bad and you're an anarchist degenerate !', before stomping off.
>>709104344
I don't believe in the existence, or special nature of 'rights'. Rights are just things institutions say you have...until those same institutions say you don't. There's just human behavior of different flavors and we regulate it all the time.
I never said to subsidize anyone's consumption? That's not a public good.
>>709104344
Redistributing wealth extends and expands liberty, rather than impeding it. Those poor people who die of sickness and hunger, they are unable to enjoy their liberty or apply it to break out of their situation. They need the government's help to give them a leg up so that they can help themselves. 'Help them help themselves.'
t. brit
>>709104777
Natural rights fam, life, liberty, and property. They exist by virtue of us being human. Look up J.S. Mill.
>>709104777
>Doesn't believe in the existence of rights
>By that logic it means you don't value the Bill of Rights
*Tips Fedora
>>709104777
Check'd.
Lol you aren't a libertarian, you might actually be a fascist.
I assume you disregard the Bill of Rights?
Just a question because Jewgle is useless:
If a website requests home phone and mobile phone numbers separately,
what should you write if you don't have a land line?
do you write your mobile phone number twice?
>>709105561
>Muh children argument
>Fuck hard work, let's just give it all away
This is why no one respects the British anymore. Fuck off cunt, you're making us Anglos look bad.
>>709106177
That's what I would do.
>>709106311
State welfare isn't the same as 'giving it all away' and punishing those who work hard: it's about giving people a leg up so that they too can work hard and realise their liberty.
>>709106557
Why don't I just sit at home an not work? The government will provide me with everyone I need for free, right?
Question for both libertarians and communists.
The fundamental difference between libertarianism and communism is an issue of exploitation vs coercion respectively.
So what ultimately made you decide which one you lean toward?
>>709106770
Most people on state welfare aren't lazy, that's just a meme anon. Most people are hard workers who have been made redundant because the company they worked for went under, or they've fallen ill and can't work. They get help to get them back on their feet so that in the long-term, state welfare becomes a profitable investment for the government.
If you outright refuse to work the government will provide you with the bare minimum you need to survive. There are still heavy economic incentives for working. Everyone wants to become richer and live a good life. State welfare doesn't mean everyone sponges off the government, because really they won't get that much. All in all state welfare is a good investment.
>>709083356
I'm not an autistic retard or a multi-bllionaire, so I'm not.