If humans were wiped out 100m years ago or just never evolved to be the apex predator, or never became as smart as we did, what species would have/could have became like us?
Obvious answer would be something like dolphins, but I'm looking for more interesting ideas. What species could have ruled the earth like us given a few million more years of evolution should we have not taken over?
Bumb
Honestly? If nothing else had developed ways to harness more nutrients from food in order to enhance brain growth as a worthwhile evolutionary trait (in our case cooking) it would probably just be a world full of survival of the fittest creatures.
Nothing to say apes may not gain more intelligence in millions of years but would be unlikely.
So just really smart monkeys? Kind of like a planet of the apes type thing?
There isn't ONE other species that could have learned to use tools, develop vocal cords, or live in colony type structures with a few million more years of evolution?
>>706821596
Quotes didn't seem to be working
>>706821277
>>706821596
Maybe. Birds can mimic and stuff. No other mammals seem to have complex enough vocal structures to talk right now though.
now are you saying if what led to the human species through evolution was wiped out 100m years ago?
like our evolutionary branch never existed or was extinguished at it's beginning?
and then what species would evolve over that 100m years without our presence to become the apex predator?
i mean i don't see any one species as being the dominant species in the first place, i mean you could say the bacteria and communities of bacteria/enzymes/etc that work inside our bodies is just as dominant of a species as we are etc.
but just for shits and giggles i would say it would have been apes, but if apes were also wiped out with our evolutionary branch then it gets tougher, plantlife would have evolved with much less interference from humans etc. would also think wolves would evolve to become a pretty dominant apex predator as well as some sea life, whales, cephalopods, etc.
awesome question though OP i will probably be thinking about this in back of mind for the next few hours
cheers
>>706821277
I have this idea that it isn't that hard to become what we have. It only took a few thousand years for our societies to become what they did. An evolved brain like ours wouldn't be that hard to evolve. There's sea life out there right now believed to have self consciousness. Even elephants and animals like that are believed it's possible.
If one of those kinds of species learned to evade all predators and started to live together more, I think many species could have evolved to be like us and could have taken over.
Birds for one would be a guess.
nump
>>706821277
i feel like you saw that ted talk years ago too anon
the one from whats her name about her studies into how we took that evolutionary step into evolved thinking through cooking our food and the ratio of nutrients consumed to brain growth/muscle growth etc
was a good one
>>706822043
>now are you saying if what led to the human species through evolution was wiped out 100m years ago?
like our evolutionary branch never existed or was extinguished at it's beginning?
and then what species would evolve over that 100m years without our presence to become the apex predator?
Pretty much. It's believed that at one point in our history there were as few as 2000 humans in the wild. By mapping our genome some scientists predicted that.
Its definitely possible we could never have existed. So yes, saying that we were wiped out, or simply never existed, what species COULD have taken our place and could now be living in houses, buildings, etc.
>>706822053
Yeah but we essentially beat the game by becoming large social groups and developing farming techniques/animal handling etc.
This took all the emphasis away from the hunter gatherer lifestyle and allowed us to develop more mentally.
Everything else on this planet remains hunter/gatherer and our best bet which is apes is still barely in the stone age.
>>706822043
>would also think wolves would evolve to become a pretty dominant
I think any mammal type species that live in colonies would have had a chance to evolve into higher societies like humans given millions more years of evolution.
Even small mammals like rats would have a chance. Afterall, we did come from mice-like rodents.
I think the hardest thing is it's just such am abstract concept to imagine a world without humans.
So many things thrive because of human influence on the world and feed off our trash etc. We could say the "world" only exists because of us.
>>706821027
Having vast relative cognitive capacity for problem solving and communication is not a consumable resource. The fact that humans are such does not exclude other animals from evolving such characteristics. If Homonids never achieved it chances are nothing would have, because nothing else has yet.
>>706821175
im no beast of burden
>>706822422
That makes me think about the first prehistoric humans that discovered leaving the seeds of some certain plants would yield more plants the following season or so on.
Thinking about it, it probably didn't start off as one human planting a seed and coming back later, but returning to the same group of plants and they left seeds themselves. Then one lucky mofo took some of those plants and left them on the ground somewhere and they sprouted and they noticed it and the cycle began! What's if that never happened? All these little things that had to have happened to be where we are today.
To answer OP's topic, I think a bunch of different species could have the ability to notice something like said above. Hundreds of mammals, birds and maybe even some reptiles could have noticed something like that with vegetation.
Im going with octopi though. Those mother fuckers are smart as shit and I'd like to imagine a world dominated by octopus. Invertebrates niggers.
>>706822305
oh i totally agree that we could have been easily wiped out in our early stages not gonna argue on that
but it feels kind of obvious to me that if the human species was wiped out but the ape species remained then they would easily take the role of apex predator and evolve into what we could consider the closest relative to the human species given enough time.
there are far fewer steps between the ape species and what we consider human or what would be necessary to be on our level of understanding than there is between us and majority of the species
but given enough time anything is possible
i mean caterpillars and butterflies could be the dominant species and apex predator of our planet in 2 million years given the right circumstances
same for just about any other species
it's also not a matter of consciousness but the ability to put the nutrients and energy you consume into mental functions rather than feeding your body so it is able to gather more energy to feed its body. most species get stuck in this repetitive cycle that leads to efficient bodies but lacking mental faculties.
once we learned to cook our food, to get more nutrients out of it than we were currently getting it unlocked that evolution
we were no longer foraging 9 times a day to feed muscular bodies, we were foraging 3 times a day to feed our brains, we sacrificed that physical power for mental power allowing us to use critical thinking etc etc.
its alot harder for some species to do this given their physical traits or abilities.
there are other means to get more energy for bodies out of your resources other than cooking so it is possible but they would need more time in order to evolve the physical traits needed which takes much more time than an outside variable such as fire, etc.
hope this makes sense
this is a great topic, good thought experiment
still think it would be some form of wolf if apes never existed
they have problem solving minds and work in communities, a good start
>>706822870
But how many species, since we've gotten to where we are, have been disturbed or influenced by humans.
When humans started creating cities, all other animals were thrown off, I guess you can say, somewhat "natural" evolution because we're such an indomitable force we fuck EVERYTHING up around us. We've wiped out how many species since we started hunting? Even our earliest ancestors helped wipe out the wooly mammoth everywhere. We've effectively stopped evolution for soo many species it's not even funny. Species that might have had a chance to achieve what we have if wasn't for us.
>>706822549
yeah totally agree why it's a hard choice for me
there are literally millions of current and extinct species that all would be great candidates
>>706822988
>>706822859
the world would exist regardless
and life will always find a way to adapt and evolve with it's environment when it can
with or without us
you could also say that "humans" only exist because of the predators that hunted us
>>706823222
>octopus
>world dominated
Jesus fuck no. Those things are nightmare incarnate.. They can fucking run on land.
>some come onto land to hunt crabs on the beach
Each limb thinks on it's own. And that thinking limb is also self amputating as self defence. Like.
>Bye piece of my brain. I didn't need you anyways.
Ill see you guys at the octopus apocalypse when they take over.
>>706821027
These fuckers right here. Or emus, ostrich, some type of large bird would have faught ape types and would have won because they're pure killers. Beaks > opposable thumbs. Shit birds use their tongues as thumbs who needs thumbs?
My vote is for large flightless birds taking over.
>>706824080
>octopus apocalypse
>>706821027
i think it would be something with power, like photons or elektrons for example
theyre a big thing in europe
>>706821027
ravens are the smartest birds
octopus are the smartest sea creature
let your mind wander as to what their society would look like if they ever learned to farm?
>>706824636
Like magnemites taking over?
>>706823539
It would be interesting as fuck if there was another intellegent dominant species that evolved alongside us. Like what if humans and the other intellegent species were separated by continents allowing a long separate evolution and then columbus came across the ocean and found societies of intellegent wolves and mayan wolves built the mayan pyramids. And they lived in villages and shit.
is everyone in this thread fucking stoned
>>706823539
This is a reasonable point, and undoubtedly most if not all species on Earth have been reoriented along their evolutionary paths by humans... But, we can speculate about how it would have influenced other animal species evolutionarily, and especially with regards to the conditions that are generally thought of as the ones that gave rise to the dramatic human cognition.
The hypothesized three strongest selecting pressures that have lead to humans being as smart as we are are hypersociality, food source domestication, and inter-hominid competition. The idea that anthropogenic environmental change has either facilitated or taken away these conditions from other species is poorly studied, but there are few if any obvious cases, all in the direction of facilitation. So, without these conditions, we wouldn't expect other species to have evolved in the way we have, so there is no reason to expect anything would have become hyperintelligent in our place.
Additionally, the idea that we have "stopped evolution" for other species is incorrect. I suspect you have a weak education on evolution, but evolution cannot be "stopped" by changing conditions. Indeed changing conditions would presumably speed evolution.
You're also assuming that evolution is linear with respect to intelligence and that hyperintelligence is "high on the scale". There is no reason to think this.
Hominids are not smart because we've progressed in an evolutionarily intrinsic sense. It was entirely circumstantial, and those circumstances simply were not around for other species (or at least there is no evidence that they were) and they are hardly there now.
Good candidates include animals like dolphins, elephants, rats, most Hymenoptera, hypersocial birds. But all those examples are missing one or two of the conditions we would expect to drive hyperintelligence, and there is no evidence to suggest that the proper conditions ever were the case.
>>706824901
some species do farm
like ants farm other insects
they use them for producing whatever protein or whatever the fuck it is and they do their best to keep them safe in order to protect their harvest/stock etc.
what's that called again when two species benefit from one another and over time they evolve to basically become their own thing or become dependent on one another.
>>706824080
>>706824457
Also forgot to mention that they are crazy smart and they constantly break out of aquariums. They test all around thier enclosure for weak points.
>They are basically the raptors from jurrassic park.
If they had longer (much longer) lifespans, I wouldn't be surprised of rats wouldn't develop some sort of higher functioning social groups like elephants or even apes.
>>706825537
no, this is a geniunely interesting thought experiment, but with a scientific approach it doesn't go very far.
>>706825594
you just put what i was trying to say earlier into much better words
thank you anon
totally agree
>>706824901
Farming wasn't the only thing that lead to humans being as smart as we are. If it were ants would have become the "dominant" group long long ago.
>>706826002
Thanks I am an evolutionary ecologist from Denmark. English is not my best language but I can say some things clearly I hope.
This post belongs on /his/.
>>706825209
I wish this were real. I want a species like the dog-men in ancient Egyptian depictions.
>>706821596
It certainly would've been monkeys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6OsVUlp7Y0&hd=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8449HgS3FM&hd=1
>>706825134
yeah, something like that.
imagine theyre would gather and combine their forces.
maybe they could even change the course of planet earth
>>706825902
exactly
really enjoy thought experiments like this though
why is it i have to come to /b/ to have conversations about things like this and can never find them within normie social circles?
>>706826392
That's what did happen. You are saying that "if primates hadn't given rise to intellectually hominid-like species, then primates would have given rise to intellectually hominid-like species."
>>706821027
>apex predator
If you even knew what this meant, you would certainly not use it to refer to humans because we are nothing of the sort.
Go back to school, and when you get a REAL education, then come asking faggy hypothetical questions. Until then, STFU you ignorant mother fucker.
>>706826392
certainly
>>706826323
for english not being your primary language you did very well explaining yourself. Was perfectly clear to me what you were trying to say.
side question how hard would you say it is getting into evolutionary sciences? years of college? courses needed? etc?
have been extremely interested in earning a degree in the sciences but with kids and all that i feel like i don't have enough free time and all that for it.
>>706826567
Because only great minds discuss ideas. Being normal necessarily excludes you from being great.
>>706825667
Symbiosis. The opposite is parasites
>>706825594
>But all those examples are missing one or two of the conditions we would expect to drive hyperintelligence, and there is no evidence to suggest that the proper conditions ever were the case.
Wouldn't the first ape that evolved into humanoids be evidence something like this could happen to another species? At some point in the past, we were all apes. Also, at some point we made the jump from apes to humans. At some point the ape brain evolved into "ours" and went on evolving.
Any predator type could have became apex predator type. When there's nothing killing you, keeping you from higher evolution, what's to say every species on the planet could have had a chance to become like us given the right circumstances?
No more evolution of stronger jaws, bones, or muscles. Because you are already the apex predator, and nothing can stop you. All you'd have is evolution of your brain to get smarter if you needed nothing else.
>>706822870
Having vast cognitive capacity is one thing.
Using it productively instead of self-destructively is another matter entirely.
We have the former, but have not done the latter.
Meanwhile, creatures with far less cognitive abilities enjoy completely stable existences across millenia.
It too almost 4 million years to go from tool use to agriculture
>>706826751
You know what he meant. Dominant species.
>>706825667
>confirmed
Leaf cutter ants cut off leaves to use as fertilizer to grow a specific fungi to feed off of.
Holy shit I forgot about those fuckers and totally forgot other species farm.
Who's to say insects and hiveminds couldn't have taken over like humans?
>>706821027
>evolution
God made humankind to be the rulers of this Earth, idiot.
>>706825707
Fuck me
>>706827116
It's not really that we went FROM ape to human. It's more we each shared a common ape like ancestor
>>706827064
thanks anon
+1 interwebz
I'm just here for humanoid animal pictures
>>706826751
Actually humans are quite high on the food chain. We are not "apex" per say, but we are apex functionally. There are no animal species that prey on humans. All cases of predation human are incidental and thus not ecologically relevant.
>>706826765
The orang using the hammer as a tool is actually quite reflective of high intelligence. Also, orangs are apes, not monkeys.
>>706826856
Thank you. I would encourage you to do it if it is your passion. It is a lot of hard work but very rewarding. An undergraduate degree will take standard amount of time. A typical graduate degree will take between 2 and 8 yrs depending on MSc/PhD/MScPhD and how productive you are as a researcher.
>>706825833
They probably would have evolved to become more like kapybaras or however you spell it, then started with brain evolution, if this did happen.
Im thinking of things like beavers too. The actually manipulate FUCKING WATER to live in. Humans were eradicating entire states worth of these things when they came over to America. They turned the entire coast into swamps due to their dams. They're extremely sociable and have high intelligence. Also are mammals why are beavers being left out? Beavers would have been like humans if they did not exist.
>>706821027
Crows prolly
>>706821596
There is a kind of crow on a certain island who creates tools and is capable of problem solving only seen in them and us so far
>>706825707
Been watchin' Cracked, have we?
You're probably right though
>>706826751
>looks up the word apex predator before posting ITT
Tell me how the fuck humans, right now are not as described below, and I'll tell you how you are close to being right.
>predator residing at the top of a food chain upon which no other creatures prey.
why is nobody thinking of rats?
>>706827302
well that's why this argument is hard
because who is the dominant species is relative to what you define as being a dominant species
if you think building skyscrapers and computers makes you the dominant species then sure humans are
if you think having trillions in your population, the ability to reproduce on a tremendous scale, and the ability to resist extinction makes you the dominant species than insects > humans
again it's all relative to what you define dominant species as, and is also why i don't see any one species as dominant over another.
some could argue sea life is the most dominant species since earth is majority water, sea life has a headstart on evolution
but you could also argue life that evolved on land is more dominant because it learned how to conquer a completely new environment, to go where sea life cannot
>>706824127
no, they dont.
opposable thumbs allow for precise manipulation and tight grip. Also theres 2 of those. Even parrots have opposable fingers.
stop talkin out of your ass
>>706821027
Corvids.
They're intelligent and wouldn't have had the restriction of an inability to move to find resources.
Even now they're smarter and more adaptable that most animals.
>>706824127
But apes are a lot more physically stronger and resistent
Betting in monitor lizards
>>706827651
This. Moar.
>>706828218
rats is a good one
>>706821027
Birds, they were already evolving from dinos and got smarter, also crows and parrots have vocal cords that could probably make a launguage
have you all forgotten about the true master species of earth?
the platypus > all
>insert swissarmyknifeofanimalspecies.jpg
what about horses?
>>706827064
Symbiosis is not the opposite of parasitism, mutualism is. Parasitism, mutualism, commensalism, and several others depending on the version on the philosophy you follow are all examples of symbiosis - which just means "life that necessarily interacts".
>>706827116
not necessarily, because this statement is assuming that the transition between "ape" and "human" brain was instantaneous. It was not evolution doesn't work that way. The three conditions likely came together for tens of thousands of years producing millions of pre-hominids that were almost hominid but also lacked something critical, then at some point or points the necessary components, all existing together in the population together simultaneously, but never having come together the right way, all come together.
I do not really understand how your other points are related to the previous, but you are correct in bringing up the point that any species likely could have become like us, given the right circumstances and enough time. There is just no evidence to suggest that the right circumstances existed for anything other than hominids. Yes absence of evidence is not vice versa, but it is imprudent to assume otherwise.
Additionally, just because something is eating a species doesn't mean that that species cannot become an apex predator. And again, evolution of a high intellectual capacity does not happen intrinsically.
>>706827188
This is a somewhat true statement, but I do not see how it is relevant.
>>706828070
Lol yes. Everything about octopus was pretty much ripped straight from a vid of thiers (very reliable source i knowww). Ive been posting other stuff though.
>>706828539
Fuck those things are merciless. I saw on a nature flick before, about 10 of those surrounded a huge ass wildebeast. A few would bite its legs and they'd all just sit for two weeks straight, chilling near the wildebeast waiting for it to die. Was a harsh ass death and not one of the leezerds flinched.
Bad ass, and I want a world with hyper evolved monitor lizards right now. Pls make this happen anon. don't get my hopes up for nothing.
>>706828218
lifespan too short
>>706829064
I would like to nominate rainbow mantis shrimp, even though it isn't all that likely for it to happen those little bastards are amazing, they can strike so fast and hard its comparable to shooting a 22
>>706827713
Beavers being environmental engineers is intsinctual more than anything else. Saying that this capacity would make them predisposed to hyperintelligence is like saying that gopher tortoises are also predisposed to hyperintelligence because they dig holes, and thus manipulate the ground, to live in.
>>706828891
language can consist of clicks and whistles
birds already have a language of their own although it isn't used in the way we use language
it is more of a reflex for them for alerting, mating, etc.
that's the barrier they would have to cross, is we don't just use language for warning others and all that, we also use it as a social tool, device as well as for leisure which is something that most species still don't do, although there are some that do.
>>706824457
>Octapocalypse, coming to a theatre near you. December 2017
>>706828489
Read it all again with the knowledge that ">" means "greater than".
>>706821027
Easy answer is Squid or Octopus. Multiple appendages that are dexterous, advanced brain, one of the few animals that use tools on the regular.
If squids evolved to be vertebrates, they could have left the water and climbed trees. Imagine our ancestors being 8 legged, hairless monkeys.
What might be more interesting is how mathematics would have developed using a base 8 system, as base 10 derived from the number of fingers we had.
>>706829723
this
>>706829014
That image
This thread needs more prehistoric birds
>>706827663
>Actually humans are quite high on the food chain. We are not "apex" per say, but we are apex functionally. There are no animal species that prey on humans. All cases of predation human are incidental and thus not ecologically relevant.
Have you seen how many humans have been killed by humans? We are prey for ourselves! You can't just discount that because it is self-destructive, it counts both biologically and ecologically.
fish people!
>>706823222
9 months gestational period.
>early human impregnates female in fall
>cannot travel much
>weather turns bad, kills crops
>human who is forced to gather food watches family members die
>spring comes
>food comes back
>baby is born
>repeat for 10million years
eventually shit might stick, like Plants grow in spring. If you plant seeds at the end of winter, more plants grow where you want them to grow. It is possible that we only evolved because we were so stupid, like it took us millions of years to see a pattern that was right there. Where other animals saw the pattern and used it, but had no need to evolve since all their shit was provided for.
>>706830282
but why are their heads so big?
Idk wtf this is
>>706829590
read it all again with the knowledge, that your argument is shit
>>706830282
>>706830230
>>706830164
>>706830120
>>706830070
>>706830031
Please keep posting more thumbnails.
>>706830190
Intraspecies competition and homocide does not exclude a species from being an apex predator.
Bears kill other bears, crocodiles kill other crocodiles, tigers kill other tigers.
>>706830350
shell-less turtle?
>>706829316
yeah this
beavers don't think about what they are doing when they are building dams
they are going off of instinctual and environmental ques that fire off in their brain and tell them
"hey that water level has hit this specific point therefore i must put some sticks over here"
they aren't thinking "well in order to better supply this area with a differential between water levels from point a to point b i need to build a dam at this spot with twigs from these specific areas"
it isn't complex though going on it's reflex
the same thing happens with human beings but because we have this critical problem solving evolved brains we try to give new meanings to it rather than accepting that parts of our thinking and processes are still extremely primal and basic.
>>706830350
It is an artistic rendition of some early mammal species.
>>706829429
wouldwatch/10
already reserving my tickets
>>706830649
Essentially yes but actually it's just the sound of running water. Beavers are biologically programmed to put sticks in a pattern where the hear running water.
>>706829313
>>706830245
Well, we are technically fish people if you go back far enough. Would be sick if we still had gills too, though.
>>706829723
>What might be more interesting is how mathematics would have developed using a base 8 system, as base 10 derived from the number of fingers we had.
this made me think of something interesting
why would it be a base 8? because they have 8 legs? that would be like saying we formed a base 4 system because we have 4 limbs
wouldn't they instead count the number of suction cups on each limb rather than counting the limbs themselves?
arms/legs=tentacles
fingers/toes=suction cuppies
>>706830987
We do when we are still in the womb for a short time.
>>706830429
What even what? I didn't even write the original shit post i just pointed out that nowhere did they claim that the bird had opposable thumbs. Which was what made you go into a rage. And now you are mad cause i pointed out you're dumb.
>>706830841
yeah honestly i didn't give the specific triggering event that causes them to build dams because i didn't know off the top of my head what that triggering event is just gave a basic analogy to get the point across.
thanks for the correction tho /b/ro learned something new today.
cheers
>>706829059
>>>706827188
>This is a somewhat true statement, but I do not see how it is relevant.
It is relevant because there is more to being an apex predator than general predation. The predation, if it is self-destructive, is less evolutionarily advanced than predation which is not irrespective of cognitive ability.
Look at viruses for example...the simplest predators. The successful apex viruses are the ones which infect their host in such a way as to be able to replicate and disperse their "offspring" to a new host before the original host dies. The ones that kill their host before replication is complete die off very quickly and are not considered to be as evolutionarily advanced, or for the purposes of this thread, "as high on the apex predator list" as the viruses which do. Again, all of this takes place outside the bounds of cognitive ability, which viruses don't have.
So the point is that given that we do have the cognitive ability we OUGHT to be able to become apex predators, but instead we do exactly as the inferior viruses do and we set our existences up so that we prey on ourselves more than anything else, meaning that the more predation we do, the more we become prey. It is a wash. We are not apex predators because apex predators have nothing preying on them, and we do...ourselves.
>>706830336
Possibly. Good point.
The human brain has evolved to notice patterns more than anything. Maybe we got this feature due to something like you said. And it just stuck for millions of years. Those patterns could have been the patterns of plant life or early crops.
Or
Our brains have always been pattern-noticing-like and that's how we were able to ever figure out the pattern of crop cycles and a brain needs this feature to ever consider farming. That leads me to question inspects that farm for fungi.
Are those types of brains the only types of brains capable of higher human-powered intelligence?
Those with pattern recognition? Or is it learned and then able to evolve from further?
Fuck this shit is unsettlingly interesting.
>>706831331
wow, what a nigger u r.
u missed the point.
stay mad and wrong.
>>706830649
Well, I was going on OP's topic thinking if they had 100m years to better evolve their instinctual parts of their brains to elevate water etc.
At some point, if they were never hunted, maybe their brains would evolve to better manipulate water. Maybe they'd develop an understanding of it. Leading to more things.
After all, everything has evolved based on their instincts. Then taking learned environmental discoveries and technologies to live better.
>>706831464
Again, being self destructive does not exclude a species from being an apex predator species.
Additionally, evolutionary "advancedness" also has nothing to do with being an apex predator.
An apex predator is simply a species that is not typically preyed upon by other species, but preys on other species. You have a more complicated definition of the concept than is true of it. Technically a primary consumer could be an apex predator.
>>706831987
>>706831046
Idk why but this shit made me laugh so hard. Getting into actual deep thought of octopus evolving into the higher scepices (or something with suction cup tentacles)
This thread is 10/10
>>706832001
Again, being hunted/not has nothing to do with evolution towards hyperintelligence. Early and pre hominids were likely prey to various predators of the time. the ancestors of bears and tigers and sharks were also likely prey at some points along their respective lines
>>706831205
Its amazing how humans still have back problems into older ages because our spines are still better suited for life living horizontally like the dolphin-like water dwellers we could have been. Using a backbone to go back and forth as opposed to upright.
I wonder how many more millions or hundreds of thousands of years it'll take for our spines to catch up?
>>706831646
i personally think pattern recognition is a basic tool used by most if not all species. without it survival would be pretty damn hard
bees recognizing the pattern of pollenating flowers
fish recognizing the pattern of predators/prey against their environment
etc
i also think in order to get to higher functioning thought you need some form of distinguishing patterns, or probably put a better way, figuring out and solving puzzles. this leads to it transitioning from figuring out the puzzle of how to get food from there to my mouth into how to figure out how to turn those sticks into fire, or how to get around this barrier holding me back from making my life easier. and by easier i mean doesn't need to exert as much energy in the process of gathering that food or resource. that saved or excess energy is then put back into brain function rather than bodily function leading to faster thought processes etc, which then leads to an evolved form of their brain after thousands of years of this happening
that the way i look at it or at least a small part of my opinion on it.
>>706832527
It may never happen. Evolution has no foresight and can only work within the constraints of the genetic variation that is present and does become present.
>>706821027
Underwater structures. Underwater cities carved from the shores and crevices of underwater caves.
DOLPHINS FAGGOTS
>>706821027
>implying nothing else could have evolved intelligence since humans called dibs
Imagine the world without humans. And there you have it.
>>706832257
glad you got a laugh out of that cheers m8
still a serious question though
i mean if an octopus had a higher level of thought enough to form a mathematical system
why would they raise a tentacle and count it as one
rather than raise a tentacle and count the number of suction cups staring back at them as if they were fingers
>>706832476
Do you at least believe evolving species are always bettering themselves? A far future generation of a species will always be somewhat "better off" due to evolution?
>>706832476
not just that but sometimes the fact that a species is being hunted or is prey to another species helps evolution along, giving the species an obstacle to overcome and adapt to
a perfect example of this is that one area fuck i wish i could remember details
where there are numerous communities of jack demseys? i believe was the species of fish, and a certain type of shark (the one that eats its siblings in utero?, and only the last survivor is birthed.) they are in constant struggle between predator and prey, each species adapting and evolving to try to one up the other
>>706832816
currently picturing a dolphin using a hammer and chisel underwater while cat calling female dolphins
thanks anon i now have a request for the drawfags
>>706832614
This
>>706833297
they are bettering themselves to suite their environment
that does not mean bettering themselves for the long run
a species could better itself to survive in a carbon dioxide based environment/atmosphere without foresight into how long that advantage would last
time changes the environment into an oxygen atmosphere or whatever and the species dies out due to the sudden shift
they bettered themselves for the environment they were in, but they didn't better themselves for adaptation or survival in harsh environments or whatever
hopefully you get the point i am trying to make
not saying you're wrong or right just playing devils advocate
but no they will not ALWAYS be better off depending
also if you are saying the future evolution of a simpler species is "better off" than it's basic ancestor, that can be wrong in some cases too
where the species that stemmed from the root is worse off due to more complex structure opening the door to a higher chance of negative mutations rather than it's "simpler" form that was sturdier against those negative mutations or cancers etc, hope this kinda makes sense too
>>706833014
>implying nothing else could have evolved intelligence since humans called dibs
>Imagine the world without humans. And there you have it.
Exactly. You HAVE to imagine the world without humans for any other species to have evolved into what humans have (society building etc) because humans have a stranglehold on everything. Countless animals extinct because of us. Every living thing on the planet has been disturbed or effected in some way due to us and our enormous societies. Every species have felt out impact in some way.
You have to imagine he would without humans to imagine OPs topic having any weight.
>implying nothing else could have evolved intelligence since humans called dibs
You mock the idea then say imagine the world without humans. Meaning you think other species can evolve to higher society while humans exist, then you say imagine the world without humans.
I don't get the mock.
>>706833297
Yes "better off" but "better off" is entirely circumstantial based on the conditions that the species lives in. Being stupider could be better. Being smaller could be better. Being greener could be better. Having fewer fingers could be better. Being infected with parasites all of the time COULD be better. Evolution will always make organisms better suited to their environment, it just depends on what "better" is in the context.
>>706833443
I do not know what you are talking about, but this general idea of evolving just to stay competitive is called "red queen hypothesis" and is very well explored in the literature.
>>706833113
Never ending keks
>imagining an octopus counting its suction cups
You're right though. I'd go with them counting their tentacles though. Too many cups to do basic problems.
>>706834266
no, no you do not. humans having those things does not exclude other species from also having those things. hyperintelligence is not a consumable resource or niche, and therefore other species cannot be excluded from it by species that are already there.
>>706833575
Unfortunately no relevant dolphin porn
>>706834266
to correct what the anon you are quoting said
you don't need to picture a world without humans to imagine any other species becoming hyper intelligent or whatever you want to call it
you can also picture a world hundreds of thousands if not million/s of years in the future whether along side the human species or after it's extinction
we may not see it in our current time, but there is still a good possibility that say in a million years another lifeform on this planet could evolve thinking much like our own right in front of us. I would also agree though that our presence alone would hinder that process and could easily cause a delay to their evolution if that makes sense?
like say they would still evolve to a higher form of thinking but due to our presence it would be 100,000 years later than if we had no influence on it.
i don't see why anyone would have to picture the world without humans in order to picture any other species reaching a higher intelligence, it could be happening right now and we are just unable to observe it or recognize it due to the differences between the species
termites could be thinking the same things we are right now but we would never really have a way of knowing if they are or not because we are not termites and we don't know what the experiences of a termite are.
ye know?
Ants. They're extremely organized and expand tactically.
>>706835127
How would it hinder the process?
>>706834549
>>706834199
OK so what's if during an environmental evolution, to better a species off to suit their environment, a particular non-homosapien species needed better problem solving skills to survive.
What's if a certain shelter building behavior became needed in order to survive. Say a species had to gather a certain amount of sticks to build a shelter each season. Let's say octopus because land dwelling over millions of years. They had to better their brains with shelter building due to a harsher climate or something.
Those octopus that could build the shelters over millions of years survived and the rest died off. Then you have an octopus species that lived on land, and could start to build huts like niggers.
After years and years food started getting scarce and they needed to find a way to problem solve. Those octopus able to solve the food problem survived and thrived..
Idk I guess my understanding of evolution isn't as good as I thought. I have the idea that over time, with the right circumstances, almost anything could possibly evolve into higher thinking organisms.
>>706835127
The world ocean life is predicted to become extinct in the next 100 years. How the hell could another species evolve into higher thinking, when we kill literally everything?
Everything is evolving evasion techniques to get away from humans nets etc. Just to survive. They have no time or reason to develop into societies and higher thought because they're just trying to get away from danger right now.
Just look at speed whales and whales in general being hunted by Japanese to near extinction. Other species have zero chance with humans here.
We're going to destroy ourselves and the planet in a million years anyway. All of this is moot.
>>706834549
yeah i wish i could remember the details of it
think it was how in this one specific environment sand tiger sharks and cichlids have been evolving side by side
where the cichlids adapt to find new ways to protect themselves against the sharks and the sharks are constantly adapting and evolving to find new ways to hunt the cichlids and they are stuck in this sort of cycle of trying to one up the other
its a great example of adaptation and evolution i just wish i could find it
thanks for the details on the red queen hypothesis though happy to learn the terminology behind it.
>>706835172
I like this idea
Hiveminds all the way. Ants as the workers, joining forces with bees and wasps as their protectors. Fuck yes. I like this future.
Society seems to be the key. Ive been studying seagulls lately and they seem to be vicious, greedy bastards. Locked together in a shitty storm of politics and predators, like it or lump it those feathered bastards are getting more organised. their tiny wee heads evolved for flight cant handle the brain capacity tho
>>706836192
I'd agree with this. Seagulls, crows, pigeons. They're all smart little fucks and their brains are, like you said, very wee.
Given a few million years evolution, who knows. Could get bigger brains. Become flightless, because they're more society oriented and stay together all the time, and start to evolve into heavier, larger, thing making their brains larger.
>>706833113
>>706832257
>>706834562
surely each tentacle does not have a set amount of suction cups
looks to me like the length of the tentacle would mean more suction cups
>tfw you can only count in base 230 when your neighbour can use base 300
>>706835393
Your understanding is not bad, and this is all possible. I would never suggest it is not possible. I am only suggesting that there is no evidence to suggest that it did happen anywhere to anything other than hominids, and that theoretically hominids did not obviously obstruct other species from achieving our own path. The OP situation was imagine a world where humans are gone, would anything become intelligent like us? I think no because of above reasons.
>>706835393
yeah but it would have to be the majority of the population of octopi that know to build shelter that are reproducing in order for those traits to be passed along
if you have 5 octopi that know to build shelter, and you have 35 octopi that think it is more important staring at their tentacles and trying to figure out if they should use base 8 or base 106. and only 1 of the 5 shelter octopi reproduce but 33 of the 35 mathtopi reproduce
then it is more likely that the species will evolve with a preference to mathematics than they do to building shelter
and once you get into the type of consciousness we have, were we can choose to make negative decisions or those traits or being passed down more than positive traits, than that evolution can be detrimental rather than beneficial
again hope this makes sense
im just getting high, laughing at octopi, and enjoying a good conversation about a thought experiment.
all just my opinions don't state anything as fact.
>>706835275
probably used the wrong way to describe it.
meant it in a way where we are an outside variable that effects the path they would have taken naturally
can be both in a positive way and negative way but for the sake of argument was only referencing it as a negative influence
like say bee-keeping, regulating their habits and actions in order to benefit ourselves however it could have, or could not have, hindered their own natural evolutionary progression ye know?
again with the whole theory of just having that opposition can spark evolutionary steps, so doesn't always mean that our interference is a negative thing and could actually lead to their evolution being fast tracked, kinda like fire being introduced or whatever. but i think if it can benefit a species positively it can also affect them negatively or set them back a bit ye know?
>>706836580
hmm good point anon
>insert octopusanon.jpg
>pic related
We don't only have brains guys, you forget one important thing.
>Thumbs
Without them, noone would be able to grab shit. Imagine being hyper intelligent but not able to finely manipulate your surroundings. That would be depressing
>>706837775
almost
>>706837991
Octopuses have hundreds of suction cups.
what the fuck is this thread. why is there intelligent conversation on my board? fukin normies
>>706838122
cheers m8
didn't have that one or i would have posted it instead
but i do now thanks
>>706838122
He's, but not as much fine motorics as far as I know. But maybe that's just a question of training. They feel best in water tho, so no cooking meals > no artificial pre digestion of food to support larger brains
>>706826921
>>706838461
Yes, not he's.
the great war we will never witness
>>706821027
>If humans were wiped out 100m years ago...
>100m years ago...
>humans...
Really, dude? Open a fucking science book or something. 100m years ago, there were no apes, no monkeys, not even a proto-primate, not for a long, long time. Fuck, the earliest Tyrannosaurus Rex didn't even evolve until 68 million years ago.
The first humans proto-humans were like 1-2 million years ago, tops. You're off by orders of magnitude.
>>706836514
I think I saw a documentary on this once. It's not the size of the brain itself that decides whether a species is smart or not, it's their brain's size in comparison to the size of their body. And birds happen to have a bigger brain to body ratio than other animals, if I remember correctly, and that's what makes them so smart.
I wonder, how big is a blue whale's brain? It can't be smaller than ours, can it?
>>706821027
It would only be humans.
Great apes have an extremely high neuron density.
Even if dolphins somehow became smarter they have no means of manipulating what's in front of them besides their teeth which is extremely inaccurate. Even apes can perform simple tasks like lighting matches or even complex tasks like learning sign language.
>>706826356
Furry freak detected kys
>>706821027
humans have not prevented any other species from reaching a similar evolutionary potential except for perhaps Neanderthals. Which we interbreed a bit with and likely died out do to failure to adapt to changing environments more than pressures from our species
>>706821027
I think ants would have a much more prominent role.
I like ants, they are like a perfect society of mindless slaves.
If only they were larger, they would be able to completely overrule humans.
>>706826392
i disagree, because it was already monkeys, who through many, many years of evolution became humans, so it's pointless saying monkeys
Dolphins, corvids, octopi, ants -not necessarily in that order. I wish cats but nah 2 much sleeping