There is nothing wrong with communism. Prove me wrong
>protip: youll probably have to put together a convincing argument with both reason and evidence
If this 404s w/out anyone else. It proves im right
>>694473471
That only proves that the problems lie with others
every communis land ever
>>694473388
>It proves im right
then why isn't the whole world communist if it's so fucking great?
>>694472986
Well, define Communism.
>>694472986
Communism destroys societies.
its a nice THEORY but it has led to mass poverty and crazed dictators.
ussr.
North Korea
Cuba
>>694472986
>>694474424
i've been to cuba, it's a shithole, the people are nice though
>>694473829
>Muh freedoms
>>694474424
That's just imperialist propaganda
>>694474818
>>694472986
This comrade gets it
When has it ever worked out well? never.
>>694474816
you'd rather live under the shackles of oppression and never obtain anything meaningful, no matter how hard you worked?
>>694474939
yeah, it's easy to keep the poor under your thumb when you tell 'em stuff like that
>>694475172
>>694475265
>everything the rich have told me about socialism must be true
>why would they lie to me?
>>694475511
Well, I wouldn't contradict the experts on that score
>>694475793
the rich didn't get rich due to socialism, but it sure as fuck keeps the poor poor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism you're shit
>>694475793
Have you fucking lived in communist countries?
Of course you haven't you fucking teenager.
Let me tell you, people worked their asses off for decades, only to see the country they loved crumble before their eyes.
Are you ready for an undertaking like that, kid?
>>694472986
Venezuela you nigger.
>>694472986
Communism is the perfect ideology right up to the point that humans get involved.
It goes to shit pretty fast after that.
>>694472986
Um, yeah there is. It doesn't work, which is the most important thing about any plan. No large-scale communist regime I've ever heard about has been successful.
>>694476250
Taking control of the means of production away from the rich and giving it directly to the poor so that they can actually benefit from their own labor will keep them poor? Sounds like you live in the capitalist fairy tale, my friend. Try reading something besides Ayn Rand so you'll have an informed critique next time.
>>694472986
got any fresher bait? maybe the "anyone under 6'2" is a manlet" one, or "white women prefer black cocks"
>>694476500
Yeah, exactly.
>>694476500
This means precisely nothing. X is perfect until you implement it in the real world, where X is literally anything.
>>694476590
i'd rather live in a capitalist shithole than a communist utopia because only one of those things actually exist
>>694476785
Are you saying that communism doesn't work in real life? Then what the fuck is your point?
>>694472986
>There is nothing wrong with communism. Prove me wrong
That's not the way logical arguments work. Onus probandi, look it up your disgusting mong.
www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>>694476963
not to mention, a capitalist shithole lets you live with more autonomy and overall higher standard of living than any communist country
>>694476963
First of all, modern socialists are not "utopian". Utopian socialism is a label that socialists have given to pre-Marx theories of socialism, which you would know if you understood anything about socialism. Modern, Marxist socialism is rigorously materialistic.
However, of the two options, capitalist shithole is certainly the one that exists in our world - no disagreement there. But capitalism's time is over, and we must move beyond it to a mode of economic production that will ensure a prosperous future for all humanity.
>>694477354
The operative word being YOU, as in "YOU don't give a shit about anyone but yourself and are perfectly happy to live off of the exploitation of the global underclasses"
>>694473829
Communist countries have a great potential for capitalistic growth because they have no free markets. This means that companies can potentially make billions of dollars if they would introduce a free market system in a communist country (i.e. eliminate communism, introduce neoliberalism). So the upper classes of neoliberal capitalist countries will introduce propaganda against communism into communist countries in an attempt to reform the country so they can introduce free markets there. They are very good at it and often succeed. That is why, even though communism is great (free education, health care, social wellfare), the power of the rich is unfortunately greater. :(
In communis land you cant start privet bisnes or thay take money YOU make with hard work and give it to the poor AND lazy
>>694477667
This is also why a successful socialist revolution must be global. A surviving ruling class anywhere in the world remains a mortal threat to true democracy and socialism.
>>694477485
>we must move beyond it to a mode of economic production that will ensure a prosperous future for all humanity
how do you go through doors with your wings and halo?
>>694477659
only according to a communist point of view. many people from capitalist countries provide much more charitable services than any of their communist governments do.
North Korea is a COMMUNIST democracy. Thay kill any opposition
>>694477659
>YOU don't give a shit about anyone but yourself and are perfectly happy to live off of the exploitation of the global underclasses
yeah, that's the point of capitalism, if i were the 'global underclassed' i'd probably be sad and angry, like you
>>694477879
rip leon trotsky
also name a tecnological inovaton that has any mach to capitalism
>>694478275
Yes, I agree. That is the nature of capitalism. Its historical purpose was to enable the industrialization of society, which has been completed. At this point, the reckless greed of the economically-privileged - who will refuse to give up their trinkets and status without a fight - are endangering the future of our civilization. We cannot allow you to sacrifice humanity's descendants to your self-serving decadence.
It could work (in theory) if:
>it's small scale, not an entire society
>it's voluntary, not mandatory
>there would be no "strong leader"
but the evidence of history suggests otherwise
>>694479285
and humanity cannot allow itself to be ensnared by the illusion of communism, which always ends up in dictatorship and mass murder.
>>694479664
对。
>>694472986
There isn't anyhiting wrong with the idea. But it just doesn't fucking work in rell lyf. Too many faggots who don't get how great it is
>>694479842
You have no knowledge to back up that claim. You just have bumper-sticker slogans you repeat endlessly and an extremely shallow historical analysis designed to verify your pre-existing ideology. Do you know the historical circumstances under which Lenin made the decision that a period of state capitalism would be necessary? Do you know anything about the early period of Soviet democracy? Are you even willing to learn anything?
>>694480455
isn't capitalism about benefiting financially from the labour of other people?
and isn't being the top dog in a communist state the ultimate form of monopoly, since you have full financial control?
>>694480455
I know that over a million people died in Soviet gulags. 30 million died in the Chinese cultural revolution. 2 million died in Cambodia's Khmer Rouge genocide...you can go on and on...
>>694481076
>and isn't being the top dog in a communist state the ultimate form of monopoly, since you have full financial control?
This is precisely what tells me that you don't even understand what is being debated. You are essentially asking me who will be the king in a socialist society. Before the bourgeois revolutions of the 18th century, you might have asked who will rule when the European monarchies are overthrown. The answer is that there shall be no kings. The goal of socialism is to eliminate all ruling classes so that the people as a whole are free to rule themselves. There will be no top dog. There will be no kings. There will be no base of power for a future ruling class, since all forms of power - political and economic - are given to the people.
You continually go back to the Stalinist Soviet Union and insist this is the model for all "communism". But that's simply not true. It never was true.
the ussr is evidece.
stalin killed more of his own people than hittler
poverty was so bad that bread lines were a thing.
the birlin wall was made buy the ussr
and North Korea is evedence.
thay have consetration camps
thay have record starvation
thay are so backwerd that thay threten the world with nukes thay dont have.
thay are led by a 5 yere old dresd as a man
need i go on
>>694481939
>need i go on
Please do. I enjoy this public demonstration of the ignorance and illiteracy of the typical un-critical supporter of capitalism.
With capitalism you have man exploiting man.
With communism it is the other way around.
>>694481896
>people as a whole are free to rule themselves
>There will be no top dog.
so far, i'm onboard.
>all power to the people
here you lost me. a society needs something to glue it all together. do you mean each person are free to do as he please? or will there be force, and if so who decides it?
>>694472986
Look at cuba.
It has one of the best healthcare systems in the world.
Lowest homicide and suicide rates.
The us even tried to hold them back with embargos and tariffs, didnt care.
They also have a fuck ton of 50's cars
>>694481076
We dont have capitalism
We have and Oligarchy
un critical? capitalism is NOT perfect but communism is SO much worse.
cuba
thay had a booming econamy befo castro.after
thay have no good export
tryed to threten america with missals
and we have just began to trade with thm agin
and communism has never had any real tecnolgecal booms exsep when given COMPATITON by america. irony
>>694482680
What glues society together will be what naturally compels people to cooperate - they are much better off working together and specializing. Socialism intends to utilize and extend all technological advances made under capitalism, in case you had a different impression. The primary difference is that the workers within individual enterprises will make the decisions as to how they are run, and the people as a whole shall decide what necessary goods to supply themselves with. There will be a minimal, managerial state, of course, but only as a referee and protector of human rights.
The details depend on the implementation of socialism, but there are plenty of socialist scholars with good ideas (Richard Wolff and Paul Cockshott). But the reason why individual socialists don't like to go around insisting upon a single implementation of socialism is that they want the people to decide for themselves in the transitional period. However, all socialisms will abolish private ownership of capital, wage labor, and market exchange for profit. From there, we want to do whatever will create a prosperous future in which people have the means to be self-actualizing.
Oh this fucking thread again.
>>694483899
take your white supremacist fantasy roleplaying back to /pol/
>>694472986
Almost 100 years of history showing communism resulting in dictatorships, murder, and privation. But since you're still advocating communism, you're blind to that evidence and reason.
>>694472986
The fact of the matter is in today's economy it IS necessary to have a wealth gap, which communism would prevent. The reason for this is the essential "Job/Wealth Gap". What this means is that people with lower amounts of wealth will take jobs that people who are wealthy wouldn't take, and those with a lot of wealth need to be around to pay those people, as well as take higher paying jobs with their higher skill set, meaning intellectually, not physically. Without a wage gape, all wealth would be distributed, essentially meaning you're going to have everyone want to have the best job, and have the same chance as everyone else, and nobody will work the blue collar jobs.
then inprovment will no happen. soshalism is to get rid of copatition.
>>694484232
>BUT WE NEED SLAVES!
>>694484232
Why the fuck should a doctor get paid the same as a dude flipping burgers?
>>694484145
Love that image, purely beause it convinces people of a conspiracy who don't understand that nation
>>694484232
Or we could just get rid of the concept of wage labor as a necessity for survival altogether, if you're looking for a more intelligent solution.
>>694484474
Anon, did you read what I was saying?>>694484232
>>694484588
But the thing about that is money provides a non existent sense of power over people who have less of it, and that is why everyone wants money, and why nobody wants to get rid of it, because then they just become a human with no ability to get things others don't have
>>694484474
Why should people be "paid" at all? That isn't the only possible way to distribute goods.
>>694481829
Don't forget 20 million plus holodomor under Stalin
>>694484145
Fascism is not Nazism dumb fuck.
>>694483815
my main beef with socialism is concept of stealing income from people (know as tax) and then redistribute it inside the system in order to create an illusion of faux prosperity.
i believe that people should be free to either discriminate or cooperate without interfearance, and choose their own terms of engagement, no matter if it concerns work or leisure. freedom the individual outweighs the needs of the collective
>>694484886
So would a doctor get more 'goods' than a burger flipper? A nicer house or better car?
>>694484917
yes, thank you. was looking for the number on that so didn't post it, but has to be acknowledged.
I guess communism sounds good if you don't mind mass murder, crappy goods, a general shortage of them, and police telling you where you can and can't go all the time.
>>694485023
explain that to the ZOG world order
>>694485052
Aha, but then their is the argument that without taxes the government doesn't have funding to run its many necessary services, because no individual is going to pay millions or even billions to the military or park services.
ITT retards who actually think Communism works, and trolls
>>694484811
>But the thing about that is money provides a non existent sense of power over people who have less of it
Oh, no. Money creates a very real power over people who don't have enough for the basic necessities. It creates a very real power that the owner of capital wields to control the employees. It is used as a real form of power to undermine and control our political system. There is nothing illusory about the unequal power structure created by capitalism and the control of wealth.
>why nobody wants to get rid of it, because then they just become a human with no ability to get things others don't have
YOU don't want to get rid of it, because YOU are relatively fortunate within this system (for now - things aren't looking good for you now at the dawn of the era of automation). But if you stop thinking purely of yourself, you'll realize that the world would be better off without the existence of this power.
>>694485341
>I assume I am smarter than everybody
Mark of a true genius right there.
>>694485459
>Oh, no. Money creates a very real power over people who don't have enough for the basic necessities.
No, it does not. There is no reason a person with a billion dollars and a person with one dollar can't have a blanket. If the person with one dollar steals it, then he has it. It's only considered stealing because he didn't pay for it, but otherwise he did nothing wrong. THe person with a billion dollars can pay for it, and he has it just like the thief with one dollar
>>694485742
Sure buddy, sure thing. Enjoy your bread line Commie
>>694485742
>>694485933
> Never even mentioned that he approved of communism
>>694485284
why should the government run services? if a certain service is necessary, shouldn't it be up to those who needs it to finance it? why should other people finance something that doesn't interest of benefit then?
and if there's no politicians to start conflicts on a grand scale, who would care about war. all conflicts that would blossom could easy be solved by small bands of mercenaries or volunteers
Money is just the worst you guys. We should all live in tiny shacks on bread rations and do back breaking physical jobs for no pay and no opportunities to change our circumstance. Oh, me? No I'll probably be one of the leaders of the glorious new communist nation and live in a palace.
>>694472986
Reason and evidence?
You fucking moron.
North Korea
USSR
China (before becoming capitalist)
Cuba
Angola
Dude I don't have more time waste on this thread. Pick up a fucking history book, idiot. And grow the fuck up.
>>694486132
The thing is though there is a reason why governments have existed for thousands of years, BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT THEM. There is something about humans that makes us want to stick together with other humans, and even if its a group of 50 people in a tribe, there is still technically a government. So no matter what, governments will still exist. also, there is the deal with money, because millions of people wont just go out and die for their country without pay, they want to be able to support their family... And who has the money to fund a multi billion dollar military by themselves other than governments
>>694472986
do you honestly consider yourself an equal to everyone around you?
do you really see no one as below you?
though everyone does a different job that requires a different level of skill and difficulty do you think it fair that those who's careers are hard and even life threatening should not receive more for their work?
>>694482974
>look at Cuba
??
They live in utter poverty!!
>>694486327
labor is just the worst you guys. We should all live in tiny apartments on microwave meals and do back breaking physical jobs for little pay with no economic maneuverability. Oh me? No I'll probably be one of the entrepreneurs of the wonderful neoliberal plutocracy and live in a highrise
>>694485851
You're really grasping at straws now. So you're saying that the third world should rise up against the West and take that money if they can get it? The power of money isn't real because you can always just rob the rich? Not that I'm going against that plan, mind you.
>>694486327
>We should all live in tiny shacks on bread rations and do back breaking physical jobs for no pay and no opportunities to change our circumstance. Oh, me? No I'll probably be one of the leaders of the glorious new communist nation and live in a palace.
How amusing. The exact reason you support capitalism is precisely because you're the one who lives in the palace while almost everyone else lives in shacks.
In reality, the socialist wants nobody to live in either palaces or shacks.
implicit assumption: people are all equal
thus, as long as we are talking about people, communism will not work. it was pretty well for colonies of insects
>>694472986
>communism
This is an ideology, not a system. It doesn't "work" as anything other than a thought experiment.
We can talk about Leninism, Stalinism. Marxism, as systems based on communist ideals with flaws and benefits, but this is potato-tier retarded.
Also, anyone replying about "communism" as a success or failure needs to post-birth abort themselves.
>>694485284
Paying for the defense and maintenance of the land you live on is one thing, paying for your lazy neighbor to get free food and sit on their ass doing nothing because they get welfare is a complete other.
>>694475960
>>694474939
Kill yourself, faggot no die.
It is inefficient as a system to allocate resources when they are scarce because people won't follow market type forces and allocate resources logically but instead allocate resources to preferred recipients which means you end up with a classist system where you have the underprivileged working too hard and the overlord jew who does no work.
>>694487200
>socialism =/= communism
but this anon gets it:
>>694487049
>>694472986
100 million dead. Communists have to kill people to make them conform to a system that doesn't work.
>>694476500
Really old fag here. Gene Rodenbery's Star Trek universe would be a good example of an imagined future where socialism is the system; people working because they like to work, people sharing because it is good honest to do so. It is make believe. To continue the trek example, Communism is like the blueprints we see for star ships; detailed, amazing to look at, it should work - but it doesn't because it is fantasy. The problem with Communism is that it expects too much of people, it believes people to be naturally honest, hard working, and generous. People are, arguably largely averse to hard work and self-centered.
>>694486903
>>694486747
So because I'm against communism you assume I'm so fat cat living the good life? Nope. Raised poor and slowly trying to make something for myself. But nah I should have stayed in the shitty little one bedroom I was born in and worked myself to death for the glorious state.
>>694485459
>But if you stop thinking purely of yourself
and that's where it all falls apart, the world isn't going to stop being greedy all at once, and it can't little by little because those people are gonna get fucked over by the greedy assholes
>>694486570
why would you need a government as a reason to stick together with other people? it's like saying you can't be a decent human being without believing in god.
and it's natural for the weak of the herd to die, that's natural selection, a security measure to ensure that the next generation will be more adapt at surviving than the previous.
>the gazelle that survives is faster than the fastest lion
>the lion that survives is faster than the fastest gazelle
Obvious bait
>>694487425
>The problem with Communism is that it expects too much of people
Communism, to work, expects you to follow orders. Conform to the plan or die. Very simple
>>694487472
Relative to the people who actually manufacture goods and provide the endless supply of cheap labor for the global capitalist system, you do have a tremendous amount of opportunities and wealth. You're close to the top of the capitalist economic pyramid, even if you're at the bottom of the American pyramid. That's how badly capitalism has done in advancing the social conditions of humanity on average. It was never meant to be a long-term system.
Also, "communism" is not actually a thing. Socialism is a society in which the people control all forms of economic and political power and private ownership of capital is abolished. Communism is the theoretical long-term goal of the Marxist-Lenninist conception of socialism in which the state and social class no longer exist, which is why phrases like "communist dictatorship" are extremely silly.
>>694472986
Because centralized planning is much much less efficient than free markets and necessitates a central authority. Such centralized authorities are prone to corruption and the creation of a provilidged class. Also, there is no adequate reward for innovation and risk taking under communism so advances in twxhnology and improvements in standard of living are sluggish. Maybe in a few centuries when we have adequate technology, centralized planning could be totally automated and standard of living sill already be so high that no kne will care how horribly inefficient communism is.
>>694488119
And a LOT of people die, let me tell you
>>694487656
Yes, exactly. This is why social democracy and welfare capitalism fails, and why socialists believe in utterly destroying the power of the ruling class by taking away their ability to privately own capital. This is why we believe in a global revolution to destroy capitalism, and don't give a shit about "fixing" it.
>>694487854
Idiots breed more than intelligent people though?
>>694487854
Standard fascist pseudoscience. Only the scientifically-illiterate think that Social Darwinism is anything but a joke - it's the modern version of the divine right to rule. It isn't rational just because you appeal to nature and sprinkle it with misunderstood scientific conclusions, you know - it's still just a fairy-tale plus science jargon.
communism is the best thing in the world
Richbro here. Come at me commiefags. I got all your means of production right here, hoarding it for me and my capitalist cronies
>>694489188
>>694488247
>which is why phrases like "communist dictatorship" are extremely silly.
Yet it always seems to work out that way
>>694489024
aside from pineapple enemas
>>694489252
Youre fucking fired. Back of the welfare line for you
>>694488937
>Darwinism
>pseudo-science
Wew lad, you really believe that sub-par gene pools are going to pull us through into a utopian future?
>>694488546
the rabbit breeds like crazy because they threat their offspring as disposable. if there is a fox, ra rabbit only needs to outrun his comrade to survive and since they're all an collective.
>that's how why idiots will never achieve anything more in life than being large in numbers
>>694488937
i have said nothing about ruling over anyone. i'm against such concept. ruling is for the weak who can't survive on their own.
>no one has the right to rule
>everybody are free to survive
>>694489309
These are state capitalisms in the model of Stalin's Soviet Union, which have absolutely nothing to do with Marx's conception of communism - that's why it's extremely silly and deliberate misinformation produced by people who don't want the people to know anything about socialism. In fact, these "communist dictatorships" are authoritarian state capitalisms for exactly the reason why the Soviet Union had state capitalism: these regions have never experienced industrialization and have no proletariat able to rule themselves democratically. Those are conditions entirely different from modern, industrialized Western nations who will be able to transition immediately into a socialist state after a revolution.
>>694488247
Except capitalism/free markets have improved the standard of living of humanity much much much more than any other system. Meanwhile, every attempt at communism has been an utter failure, totalitarian regimes trying to enforce communal ownership and repressing dissent etc etc
>>694489407
B-b-but they told me that money wasn't real social power. Were the capitalists lying to me?
>>694488248
None of you commie fucks bothered to respond to this very legitimate critique
>>694489477
You're right. We should immediately kill all retards who are dumb enough to believe in fascist fairy tales. The likelihood that those skinheads will actually breed is vanishingly small, but we can't take the chance.
>>694488526
>a global revolution
a 'guns and bombs' revolution or the gay kind? because capitalists have a lot more guns and bombs then these ethereal socalists
>>694489833
Those 'authoritarian state capitalisms' don't work which is why the shelves in the stores are empty.Take a trip to Venezuela. You'll see 'authoritarian state capitalisms' all over. It has destroyed the oil business in the country with the greatest reserves on the planet. They're broke due to 'authoritarian state capitalisms'
>>694490241
We'll hug each other into a new era.
>>694490150
Because this doesn't follow:
>Because centralized planning is much much less efficient than free markets and necessitates a central authority.
Maximized economic efficiency does not imply optimal social outcomes. Even an American economics professor will tell you that.
>>694489963
It's obvious, but the cult still believes it can make a failed model work. Definition of insanity.
>>694477879
TRIGGERED
>>694490241
>>694490353
You seem to be confusing revolutionary socialists with American dinner-party liberals. The revolution must seize power from the capitalists. If they start shooting, so be it, but we won't be the first to use violence.
>>694490617
Yes, she is a good example.
>>694490459
But inefficient economies make for famine, shortages etc. No one will want to live in a 'communist utopia' if that utopia cant feed its people, give them shelter and decent lives and so forth
>>694474424
none of these countries are communist. They are state capitalist and have stong components of ruling class (who is formally communist but really) and don't divide wealth equally among people.
I'm not even a communist but at least USSR (because I lived there) had exactly the same ruling class as crony capititalist US, they just have different rhetorics
>>694490725
>But inefficient economies make for famine, shortages etc.
You've created a false dilemma. A state of maximum economic efficiency creates prosperity and endless wealth, but anything short of that creates famine? Come on.
>>694490872
Look at every centrally planned efonomy thats ever existed bro. They are not pretty and have all been left in the dust by free market economies. See USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, N Korea...i understand that none of these are true communist states but all of them ARE attempts at centrally planned economies with no ownership of the means of production. Fails every fucking time
>>694490166
Or we just kill everyone who is physically and socially inferior.
Manlets, leftists, gays, autists, 4chan would cease to exist tbh fam.
Only issue is, Social Darwinism is meant to let the world balance itself, and the right skinheads are the strong horse, always have been, always will be. Education and independance along with indoctrination and a false sense of security lead to leftist ideals, poor education, danger, and a fear of being left all alone lead to Right leaning ideals. We are all broken in different ways, just the Right has a better method for survival, as authoritarian regimes have shown throughout history, due to social and military organisation crossover.
>>694490620
so, how does this go down? get a guy elected president but he's a secret socialist?
>HA HA, I WAS A SOCIALIST THE ENTIRE TIME! *presses the 'turn government socialist' button*
washington fat cats: OH NO, WHY WAS THAT BUTTON EVEN MADE?
>>694491317
>with no ownership of the means of production
No, that clearly isn't true. The state owned the means of production (at least in the era of Stalin). And as a matter of fact, the Soviets were remarkably successful in industrializing their nation. In any event, not only was the Soviet Union not communism, it was not socialism.
In addition, there have been many, many advances in information technology that make new forms of calculation and planning possible. Wal-Mart's distribution system, for example, which is essentially socialist centralized planning of distribution minus a couple of steps. I suggest reading Paul Cockshott's work on this subject.
>>694472986
Every example demonstrates you're wrong.
Every communist country has either collapsed, adopted capitalist aspects, or become a dictatorship.
Standard of living between the first world and second world is staggeringly one-sided.
It's a system that operates based on what one WISHES the world was like... not based on what it actually IS.
>>694491663
Your ridiculous reply actually gets into the difference between evolutionary and revolutionary socialists. Evolutionary socialists believe it is possible to gain control of the state through parliamentary means (by getting elected) and then immediately entering the transitional phase to socialism. Revolutionary socialists share your opinion that this will not be possible.
>>694491934
>Walmart, epitome of capitalism, creates great advances in distribution systems, making the world a better place
>capitalism is horrible
But I get what ur saying, I do. My opinion is that we have a long way to go before we can 'afford' anything close to communism. Meanwhile, its the competition from capitalist/free market economies that will advance our technology and elevate our standard of living far enough that the inefficiencies of communism will be acceptable.
>>694491663
So...pretty much what people were expecting Obama to do?
>>694491934
It helps when you exterminate 7-9 million Ukrainians, stealing their food to feed the rest of the nation.
>>694492788
Niggerism.
>>694492132
Communism that involves a monetary system is not communism. All of those states had the control of the means of production in.. dun dun dun, state, government, elite hands, not the actual hands of the peoples. Look further into anarcho-syndalism and resource based economies
>>694491934
Soviet Union was international Socialism as opposed to the Nazis with their version of national socialism
>>694472986
Is that really a protip or are you really that retardet
Man, you commie guys are really salty Bernie endorsed Hilary and gave her your parents money.
>>694492681
>Walmart, epitome of capitalism, creates great advances in distribution systems, making the world a better place
>capitalism is horrible
These aren't inconsistent at all. Even the Communist Manifesto praises capitalism.
>My opinion is that we have a long way to go before we can 'afford' anything close to communism.
The world is on the brink of ecological collapse due to the wasteful rate at which capitalism has been consuming resources.
>its the competition from capitalist/free market economies that will advance our technology and elevate our standard of living far enough that the inefficiencies of communism will be acceptable.
Socialists want to increase the rate at which technology has been advancing far beyond what is possible in capitalism. Capitalism is great for industrializing a society, but it relies upon cheap labor and thus results in technological stagnation. The people and technology will always be enemies in a world where wage labor is necessary. Socialism removes this contradiction and makes technology a benefit to all by reducing the number of necessary labor hours but sharing the benefits of increased productivity.
But it is critical that we transition to socialism BEFORE the automation revolution occurs. What do you suppose the global capitalist ruling class will do with us once labor becomes largely unnecessary?
>>694491661
B..but this strong horse was assraped by the weak one.
>>694472986
My country says hello, also fuck you
>>694472986
Pure communism as written in the communist manifesto is basicly anarchy
No government no currency no social classes
Anarchy is impossible in large human populations, you take away the government factions and gangs form which compete for territory and resources. 1 2 3 you have a government hierarchy again, no matter what you do governments will always form as humans don't all think the same or have 0 ambition.
This is why humans have always organized in tribes factions and what not.
Impure communism like what we have seen isn't real communism as is a stagnant system, this is why all comunity countries have collapsed or transitions into free market socialism (like china) because comunity on all its forms can't work.
>>694493540
We are living like that in here, you can kill, rob, and do whatever the fuck you want and you can walk away freely.
>>694492938
Stupidism
>>694476461
No country has yet to adopt full communism, it was a horrible authoritarian state not communism. Best bet is a social democracy. A little from the left and little from the right
>>694493335
>What do you suppose the global capitalist ruling class will do with us once labor becomes largely unnecessary?
get killed by pissed off jobless rioters?
>>694493335
>Even the Communist Manifesto praises capitalism.
Socialism in its pure form relies on slave labor. Minimum wage? Good luck pal.
This is how communism will succeed
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource-based_economy
However it'll be tweaked slightly, with AI acting akin to a government & people will provide input daily on their lifes so that we can derive a common goal to work towards, whether thats a total hedonistic lifestyle fuelled up til our limits or exploration of the galaxy
Any thoughts on this?
>>694494106
No, it'll be salami tactics. You don't give a shit about the less fortunate and homeless in your society, and are scared to death of becoming one of them. They'll just gradually wipe you out by making it harder and harder to live until you slip into the unfortunates. With a small, highly-paid police force and total surveillance, they'll just keep your dystopian existence going until it's your turn to be disposed of.
>>694494256
"Ha! Now you own the means of production and receive all of the benefit of your own labor. Take that, slave!"
>>694472986
theres not a single successful communist/socialist civilization and it is the literal definition of being a failure
>>694474558
he was much hotter when he was young
All those people working in "sweatshops" overseas are paid. What would they being doing without the jobs? Starving. Would their socialist governments care?...Nope
>>694492944
Nothing wrong with communism
Communism is not communism
Ok dude... you're gonna have to actually present what the fuck you're arguing. You can't just move the goalpost like that and cry no true scottsman and expect anyone to take you seriously.
What exactly IS your flawless system?
And "go educate yourself" isn't a fucking answer. Words mean different things to different people (especially broad ideology umbrella terms).
Firstly the Soviet Union doesn't exist, so the ancient flag is useless.
Secondly, like most Americans they believe the Russians invented communism, when it was the Greeks.
Thirdly Later date communism wouldn't have reached China and Russia if it wasn't for the greedy Americans after WW2.
Has it ever worked out in any country that tried to implement it? no? it's fucking shit and was conceived by a man that didn't work a day in his life.
>>694494858
Like a communal farm. You know what happened to them? They went out of business because they couldn't compete with privately owned farms. "We pretend to work and the government pretends to pay us." Old Soviet joke
>>694495368
>Thirdly Later date communism wouldn't have reached China and Russia if it wasn't for the greedy Americans after WW2.
What? This I have to hear......this should be interesting
>>694495342
I too would like this answered.
>>694489833
This is the standard reply said by every commie, ever. The problem is, every fucking communist state has been ruled by a strongman. Explain that one Einstein....
>>694496962
>This is the standard reply said by every commie, ever.
Because it's true. All it takes is being able to read a book of what socialists actually say without being an ideological crusader for capitalism.
>The problem is, every fucking communist state has been ruled by a strongman.
As we've said, there are no communist states. "Communist state" would mean "the state, in a society in which a state no longer exists". But if you mean states that have CALLED themselves communist, they were authoritarian for the same reason that the USSR became authoritarian - pre-industrial societies have not yet met the social conditions under which a transition to socialism is possible.
>>694497142
>communist
>liberal
You don't even know enough to realize that those two groups pretty much hate each other.
>>694494333
So when are you cunts going to argue that this isnt the future. Because I'd love to tear you a new one, educate you.
Communism doesn't work because there will always be someone at the top that's better off. True capitalism works as long as there aren't greedy fucking people
pre-industrial societies have not yet met the social conditions under which a transition to socialism is possible.
Which countries are pre-industrial? Just a list of 10 that are on the verge of becoming industrial.
>>694495863
After the Nazi's surrendered, there was a debate on how Germany should be dealt with, the Russians had a strong claim they had been fighting them for years with many deaths.
So they said they would help bring back control and to route out the remaining Nazis.
America was not so happy, they wanted to be able to have a base of operation in Europe, plus they recognized Germany's potential for technology and goods. They of course wanted it to further develop their Nuclear Missile programme.
Along came the UK and France, saying hold up guys lets just split the country down the middle.
America and her allies got the technology rich areas and the Polish were left with the slummiest parts with poor farm land.
Russia was incensed because why Poland? Sure they were in the Soviet Union which Russia managed to save like other eastern bloc countries from the Nazi tyranny.
So in a way the Potsdam agreement was devised to not give Russia a chance to profit out of it all.
Don't think because Poland was a member of the Soviet Union, that they had to obey Russia. They didn't really, they loved it, it gave Poland a chance to install spy networks, gain money and trade both legit and underworld.
While this went on Russia had another Famine 1946-47 and many millions died, Russia had no choice but to adopt a more aggressive form of communism to force it's people to work for basic wages to make money to import food.
At this time after a war, it was hard to find a supplier to give them what they needed even when they had the money.
And the Russians blamed the US for it all, and the US blamed Russia for not controlling Poland. And so on.
>>694497505
They are one and the same. If you can't figure that out you need to get out more
>>694497725
>Communism doesn't work because there will always be someone at the top that's better off.
I'm constantly astonished that capitalism's supporters of even a modest level of intelligence don't just look around and realize that their side contains 100% of the brainless knob-ends.
>>694497853
Tell me about the Marshall Plan
It all comes down to the fact that we humans are not cut out for communism and its equal sharing of resources/wealth. People can and will sieze power and the wealth that comes with it so long as there is any sort of scarcity. And there will he scarcity for a long fucking time, because the world is a brutal place. People are fucking greedy and we are better off using a system that makes greed work in our favor instead of trying to stifle it. Our current system in the US is far from perfect but its the best economy in the world, producing the highest average standard of living of any large nation. Its far from perfect, but its the closest thing the world has to perfection
>>694497998
Walking from your barn to your moonshine still doesn't count as "getting out". The fact that you think those two groups are the same shows that you understand nothing about the ideas involved in this discussion and that you're probably better suited to coming up with those clever little witticisms for church signs than engaging in this discussion.
cyka bkat
>>694498093
>I'm constantly astonished that communism's supporters (anachronistic as they are) don't just look around and realize that their side contains a small fringe of believers in the cult for a reason. It's a failure. But they still pray to their God
>>694495342
>>694495342
it's not crying no true scotsman and I didn't say either of the two statements you claim to be contradictory. You can call anything "communist" but if it doesn't actually follow basic Marxist principles then it's not socialism. And asking you to educate yourself is not intended to be any kind of "answer" because I was not addressing a question; merely offering you motivation to find more information.
All I am arguing is that if a state does not actually give over the means of production to the people, then it is not what I would consider communism, socialism, whatever the label is... after all these are indeed just labels. I like using the term resource based economy (which is why I asked you to look into it) because it doesn't have quite the same stigma as those 19/20th century words. Simply put, when a bunch of pampered, powerful oligarchs can deprive masses of people of food, that's not exactly the workers having control is it. At best it's someone pretending to be their representative. It's all the same representative pseudo-democratic shit that we have today and have had for a while.
I am also by no means saying this potential RBE is at all easy to transition to, especially given the corporate control we currently have. But it is surely a superior long-term goal than continuing to have our society and species run by the digits of currency, when the currency digits should be there to actually serve the needs of humanity. They are like a parasitic cancer, long evolved past a benign usage. It's like having a pet that eventually kicks you in the head every morning at 5am and bites you until you take it for a walk when you originally got the damn dog just to make your life a bit nicer, but then you can't get rid of the dog because it has too much power over your life.
I also never claimed any flawless system. What productive purpose does it serve to use strawman? We are both fellow humans trying to advance the state of our species. <3
>>694493429
The West used to be the strong horse my man.
>>694498188
It was America's way of injecting money into Europe to help with it's rebuilding, like others did.
However although on the outside it is all angels and bells, inside it was about digging in.
The UK and Russia were also bad for it too.
>>694472986
Communism seems good on paper, but it will never sucessfully be implemented into society... Most of the time communism turns into a dictatorial socalist nation
>>694498456
The fact that you believe they tells me you are young and should get out more. Eventually reality will hit you upside the head with a 2X4. That is unless you decided to go into education where you can continue to live in your fantasy world and be paid for it
>>694495342
We happen to live in a somewhat fortunate age, technologically speaking at least in that we actually have the potential to have more and more automated production, meaning the workers can and should profit from it. But first this production must be equitably owned and controlled, not in the hands of oligarchs with serfs. Production ranging from consumed goods of all kinds and energy itself. When the self-serving (and by self i literally mean the money works for itself unconsciously via humans who use it for short-term gain) monetary interest is paramount, not social and personal well-being, then things happen (such as environmental damage, overpopulation, all manner of shit) that aren't in the actual best interests of humanity.
Simply put, the earth has finite resources. We should have a finite population, and distribute the resources fairly and equally in a way which ensures all beings on it are healthy and happy and none go without, and we do not damage our biosphere to gain more imaginary virtual digits. That's all the money is; virtual power. It's only meaningful if we allow it to have meaning. The resources are the important thing and we should be working towards a post-scarcity mindset and keep competetive currency juggling to MMos, like we now mostly keep medieval violence fantasies that once served us but don't any longer.
Good evening, friend(s).
>>694498816
Yeah, we got tired of coming over there every 20 years to stop Europeans from killing each other
>>694498670
That's the funny thing about critiques of supposed socialist/commie gvmts - none have ever remained true to Marxist doctrine. Lenin provided an important perspective on the state and strategy for revolution, but it really does not follow Marx at all. Lenin was responding to the conditions of his time, and unfortunately his model of revolution was conflated with the model for the DoP. But let's be real, communism nor pure socialism will ever suffice to provide for the people. There has to be some element of capitalism. Large scale society needs markets - they just need to be heavily regulated. Polanyi is a good theoretical basis for exploring the role of regulation and the capacity for social change.
Bump till mr commie ashton gets online
>>694499220
That's a shame because we might need you again in a couple of years. There's Muslims everywhere and Russia is kinda scary.
>>694499437
These guys wrote fantasy. Never took into account human nature. Which is why those that tried to follow a "true" Marxist state ended up killing their fellow citizens
>>694472986
You lose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QD75lUm51s
Suddenly since
>>694499833
Humans operate this way when there is scarcity and competition. A capitalist system does not do anything but enforce and by it's very nature create the need to perpetuate scarcity and competition. We currently have enough land and resources to feed and allow to prosper many millions of humans without damaging the earth. So let's do it. Let's give the resources without the ridiculous lag involved in monetary systems.
If you want markets, it should be markets for popularity. Design a really awesome product that people want to get 3d printed from their local communally owned 3d printer. Get your piece of clothing in the top 100 list because everyone loves it. Get everyone to like your music. Get people applauding your scientific discovery. There will always be plenty of space for competition and we should nurture humanity towards putting those urges towards productive means, not into a game that can and is easily rigged and harmful and at the end of the day lacking more intrinsic meaning than these other avenues.
>>694500431
All we'll all live happily ever after. I saw a version of this on the Twilight Zone
>>694500431
Fuck working on scientific discoveries, clothing, 3d printers or fucking anything if I'm not going to be compensated for it. I'll just do the absolute fucking minimum amount of work required and take zero risks because theres no fucking reward
>>694500431
I'd design a popular way of actually making money.
>>694472986 Summer Fag
>>694473388
>everything I say is automatically true and it's on everyone to prove me wrong!
>>694500859
Welcome to socialism
>>694500431
Who is going to fund all these projects if no one is allowed to be rich? You know how many billions people like Bill Gates pump in medical research?
>>694480455
You're starting to like like you took socialism 101 or some shit and had your first class yesterday
stfu
lenin was a cruel cunt in the early days
>>694483815
Won't work.
Requires too much faith in the system.
The voting means that some people are actively voicing their needs and being ignored. Which isn't so bad in a capitalist system with personal property, because one can at least save up resources, find a steady job, and feel OK if the economy wavers for a while. BUT, with no personal property, if the economy tanks, you go down with it, no safety net. You can go from comfortably living to bread lines and there's nothing you can do personally to do fuck all about it if the system fucks up. So if you don't think the current plan of attack is gonna work, you're looking to jump ship first chance you get.
So every time you hit a controversial issue, you bleed population from the minority. One generation in, teenage rebellion happens, your perfect subjects grow old and die, you have a disgruntled population assuming they're even still around. That's assuming bad ideas don't get popular enough to fuck the system before you get there.
Your only options for stopping this are to crush freedom of opinion (nullifying the democracy) or entraping the population. Both are an Orwellian nightmare.
Sorry fellas, the dream is over.
>>694472986
It has failed %100 of the time.
>>694501220
Exactly. Communism can work in some far off, futuristic, tech advanced society where robots wipe our asses and grow our crops and make our clothes. But until then, we are going to need incentivize people to work using competition.
>>694500788
Was that the one where everyone looked like a capitalist pig?
>>694500431
>Let's give the resources without the ridiculous lag involved in monetary systems.
So you think that state bureaucracies and central planning are more efficient than free market systems?
>Design a really awesome product that people want to get 3d printed from their local communally owned 3d printer
Communally owned ehhh?
Alright, lets say that I decide to stand up in front of the communally owned replicator with a gun and demand that I be compensated for use of the 3D printer. Clearly in this instance the printer would be mine and I could dictate what is printed.
You might respond to this by saying that the police or the government would stop me from controlling the 3D printer; but if that's the case then who stops them from controlling it?
Communal ownership is a lie, someone will always control the means of production. Either the free market does it or the state does and given the events of th 20th century, I'd say the free market is far less dangerous.
You all need to watch Ziegiest: Moving forward
The first half focuses on human development, nature and nurture. How our current systems breed violence, greed, real mental health issues.
The second half focuses on how we can change that, and what the future will likely look like.
The main takeaway is the global resource based economy, with no ideologies, no politics.
>>694502541
How long will that take, does it think?
>>694502923
How long do you want it to take? Its going to require revolution, one that I don't think will be peaceful. Get incentivised, do something to help.
>>694502541
Where do the countries with no resources like Japan fit in?
>>694503358
>>694502923
There is zero chance of it ever happening. You think every country, culture, religion, belief system is going to work together like that? The world will end first.
So wht does a communist household even look like? Am i allowed to have a refrigerator? Can anyone just come and take the tasty buffalo wings that are in it because they are hungry? Am i allowed to keep my home air conditioned? Am i allowed to have more than a couple pairs of shirts and pants, not a fag or anything bit I fo like to keep up with some of the current fashions and trends? How about a computer? Can i have one of those for my exclusive use so as not to terrify my comrades with my silly fetishes on my e: drive? And who will be a porn star, we all need porn, amirite?
>>694503684
Didn't know you were physic
>>694503743
>How about a computer?
I too, would like this answered. If I dont even have the internet to distract me from the shitty ration food I'm not gonna be happy. What about tv and movies?
>>694504007
Dont need to be a physic to predict something that unlikely wont happen.
>>694503743
My wife and in-laws lived in one. Just what you'd expect from government housing. Drab, poorly constructed, what housing projects here are like.
>>694503684
The world will reach a breaking point under this system, where by relgion, nationalities, cultures will be forced to work together in order to survive.
>>694503743
Really want someone to answer this
>>694504588
Europe lost religion and it's now being invaded by religion. Welcome your new masters. They don't give a damn about what you consider fair and equal.
>>694504410
Not some totalitarian state-enforced socialism. I mean real communism, where no ones owns anything and people just 'get what they need'.
>>694504588
Even working together, this people wont abandon all their ideologies. They'll work together and perhaps make compromises but will hold onto these things.
>>694472986
Just look up any "we love russia compilation" videos on youtube and see for yourself the legacy of communism: a bunch of drunk dudes driving old junk cars and living in dirty poor eastern european shitholes
>>694505109
In other words a fantasy. My MiL was born in the Gulag.
>>694505109
Sounds like the home planet in K-Pax. Seemed pretty nice but they also somehow didnt have the concept of 'crime'.
>>694472986
>hey guys lets give as much money to the janitors as we give to neurosurgeons
It's view on equality is as childish as it can be.
>>694472986
>Prove me wrong
nice logical fallacy there bud
you have the burden of proof since you made the claim
>>694491317
China is very heavily centrally planned. When I went there earlier this year I was shocked at how advanced the damn place is. Much more advanced than Australia at least.
>>694505120
And they'll realise they live under a better system, all that shite will eventually die off, especially with GOOD education.
>>694504990
Do you hear yourself talk? Why is Europe being invaded by relgion, because a capitalist war raged upon the middle east caused masive instabilty. Obviously there are other mitigating factors, however the wars in the region set the blaze going
>>694505820
>And they'll realise they live under a better system, all that shite will eventually die off, especially with GOOD education.
Look at all the the 'revolutions' in the middle east that have made things worse. People dont want to live under a 'better' system, they want to live under 'their' system.
The poster child for why no communism.
>>694505820
Like The Iraqis fighting the Iranians...1 million casualties. The massacres in the Congo. 10 million dead. Remember Rwanda? Yugoslavia?
Not capitalist wars...tribal wars
>>694506063
They can try but when the world is going in one direction, flourishing, thriving and they are living with goats , starving, with no future I think they'll be open to compromise. Compromise leads to good education, successive generations get better at seeing the end goal, togetherness. Come, join the dark side.
In reality I host similar views, i think individualism and black markets will always be a thorn in the side & what hapoens if we crack space travel? Or at least gain access to the asteroid belt, near unlimited resources on which to continue this path
>>694507069
Nigs gonna nig, coz they aint got no education
>>694478262
They operate on juche philosophy.
>>694507304
>They can try but when the world is going in one direction, flourishing, thriving and they are living with goats , starving, with no future I think they'll be open to compromise.
You've literally described the middle east and parts of Africa.
>>694476461
Sounds exactly like the USA.
>>694476461
But it had to crumble...it was unsustainable
