Why would any sane person not be libertarian?
Why would you want your life limited by the government?
>caring about politics
Good question but dude this jpg wtf
>>688894035
10th grader who spent an hour on reddit detected
>>688894174
Not really.
Your life is limited by your government.
You can't legally decide to fuck your life up by taking a shit ton of heroin.
I want to have that freedom. The freedom to destroy my life.
Why would anyone not want to the right to make their own decisions about their life?
>>688894035
uh because i'm not a billionaire with a private army
>>688894035
What? A skinny feminist? I know it's unusual but they do exist... Nothing else seems extraordinary or remarkable about her except she looks a bit softer/nicer than most
>>688894566
So libertarian means anarchism?
Twat.
The government should ensure the freedom of the population.
Not restrict it.
>>688894957
>there are people who seriously believe limited government=pure anarchy
>>688895247
anarchism means without rulers, its possible to have a horizontalist anarchist government
It's got to do with keeping idiots from harming others. A safe and stable society is more important than the needs of the individual. Libertarian self entitlement is only matched by that of tumblrinas.
>>688894957
You are an idiot.
Don't be disheartened, though.
You can fix it.
>>688895360
Okay...
how about you talk about some specific policy points instead of the name of your party
>>688895589
What?
I don't get your point.
Why do you think a libertarian government would lead to people hurting each other?
That doesn't make sense...
libertarian style of government would create monopolies and stifle progress and technological advancements
>>688896032
we have evidence of a period of low economic regulation, its called the gilded age
anyone remember Martin Schkreli? Could you have imagined what he would have done if there were less government rules
>>688896030
Yes, I support the party libertarianism...
Do you support the party authoritarianism?
>>688896250
remember when goldman sachs morgan chase et al repealed glass steagal and crashed the world's economy, make a shitload of money and got away with it?
>>688896385
i'm going to ignore that leading question
again, i'll ask, could you provide some specific policy points?
>>688895589
>A safe and stable society is more important than the needs of the individual.
Literally communist theory 101.
>>688896169
Oh well that explained everything, thanks.
>>688894035
you're just retarded
>>688894566
If you think this image is good you are worse than reddit. Even reddit is better than this
>>688895247
Even OP is dumb gg
>>688896049
Le monopoly maymay. Most economists accept that monopolies don't survive in a free market
>>688896399
and less rules and oversight would have some how stopped them?
>>688894035
It's about limiting other people's lives by the government.
>>688896695
source?
>>688894035
because some/many people are better of that way. because they are weak and cant take care of themselves.
>>688896049
>a purely merit based society would stifle progress
Riiiiiiight
>>688896494
Not really.
I am talking about the philosophy in general.
Why would you want your freedom restricted?
Why would you want to be protected, not allowed to make your own mistakes?
>>688894035
I don't support libertarianism because I don't support the idea that the oppressions of corporations is better than the oppression of the government.
Libertarianism is great until you give corporations who have laws that say they are 'people' so much liberty they use it to impose bullshit on the middle class, I.E. walmart making 15 billion a year in pure profit yet paying wages so low the tax payers must subsidize employees healthcare and food stamps. Liberty for people? Yes, all for it. Liberty for multi billion dollar conglomerates hiding trillions of dollars in taxable money in offshore accounts? Nah. No thanks. That being said I'm an anarchist. All government is just people putting themselves into a situation they exploit for financial gain.
>>688896695
>Even OP is dumb
Why "even"?
Surely it is just a given, that OP (Me) is an idiot
>>688896698
Less of the crony capitalism that allowed them to operate that way in the first place. You're blaming the market for problems that politicians created. Politicians actively helped them to do what they did.
>>688896049
Why?
Explain this claim.
>>688896695
>tfw there's a monopoly on diamonds
>>688897074
I don't think you understand that Walmart isn't actually harming anyone and in fact is providing lots of extremely useful services (and work for people with low skills if you're into that).
If you think those who invest in such useful ends deserve to have their money taken away you will find they buy boats or take leisure time instead of starting companies
>>688897005
and i'm talking about the world of realpolitik, where 7bn+ people live and are affected by decisions to cheap out on car brakes etc
when your economics 101 rational actor theory smashes into a realworld economy people get killed and my value system can't abide this much violence.
what use is violence? the only truly capitalist use of violence is to prevent further violence.
>>688897627
what an adorable post
>>688897058
Okay so right now you have government actively allowing corporations to have the power that they do, remove a massive chunk of that governments power and you simultaneously remove a part of the corporations power. The vote you place with your wallet is the only vote that you can place that is actually counted, more limited government allows your only real vote to count for more.
>>688896895
Then they are fucked.
But seriously a small government, is still a government.
They are there to help people and ensure they can survive
>>688897074
Why would a libertarian tolerate the legal fiction of corporate personhood?
Why would a libertarian tolerate our bizarre and broken conglomeration of benefits and entitlements instead of weaning us off the teat of the state with something like a negative income tax--improving the social safety and obsoleting hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats in one fell swoop?
Why would you expose yourself to ridicule by mocking libertarianism (which acknowledges a need for a government to prevent violent coercion) and then claiming to be an anarchist?
>>688897627
we had stores before wal*mart, but we didn't have a single buyer of most consumer goods, and wal*mart uses that monopoly power to put other companies out of business. on paper in capitalist wacky land all this money going places is good but when you examine the entire ecology of the marketplace you see workers making less at every level due to the disruptive nature of the massive entity
not to mention that wal*mart lobbies congress to chip away at labor rights
>>688896895
Charity exists friend and those are exactly the people it should help.
Government has an incentive to lie about which people are helpless and make more people dependent and unemployed
>>688897627
If they want to keep MAKING money (without working), they'll suck up taxes as just a bother cost of business. The whole "I'll stop investing" thing is ridiculous, a tantrum that they won't sustain for more than a year or two because the money they make under regulation and taxation is still MONEY THEY MAKE, and they will still want a NEW yacht a few years from now. If you don't work and don't invest, eventually you have no money.
>>688898012
except when it comes to specific policy points, libertarians repeal regulations and anarchists advocate for total economic reform
you're clearly an anarchist who's gotten tricked by big business into being a splitter
>>688897629
You seem to think that libertarianism means anarchism (correct me if I am wrong)
Small government, does not mean no government.
Regulations can still be in place.
>>688897629
>people are greedy and shortsighted
>lets designate a special class of people to correct greed and shortsightedness
>It'll work great as long as they don't get greedy and shortsighted, otherwise they might abuse all that power we gave them!
Sounds like a great plan, sign me up.
>>688898054
>capitalist wacky land
Socialist confirmed. Capitalism built the single wealthiest and most powerful country to ever exist. Get fucked retard.
Well the problem is the media has us confused, they're running the show culturally and a lot of people don't know that right and left aren't equivalent to authoritarian and libertarian. I think there's a lot of "liberals" out there who don't see the change that's taken place among the economically left and right, they still view the left as being libertarian when it's spend the last 25 years shedding itself of libertarian ideas and values. The right, in response, has minimized religious voices, voices they only took on as their own to fight equally with the left, and has necessarily become the libertarian side.
Honestly the two party system has me feeling like I'm voting for a bad guy either way, so yeah, I'd rather vote for the bad guy who isn't a true believer in controlling people for their own good. Trump is perfectly happy to just let you be a loser and call you one to your face, Hillary by comparison is going to do this No Shitlord Left Behind stuff and probably let the SJWs witch-hunt people "for the greater good", she'll let systems of control scale up and they'll scale up just a jpg file does, all craggy and full of errors and artifacts.
The new authoritarian left doesn't want to account for human nature and plan accordingly, they don't want to create structures with proper scaling because they don't want to slow down and thus have their own individual life mean less. They'd rather just announce none of those things are problems, problems don't exist, false rape accusations don't happen, groups don't naturally become corrupt over time without oversight, etc. They're going to make all the same mistakes as the soviet union.
>>688897440
why invest more into something that has little financial benefit when what you have works fine? Most companies are happy to just sit on their ass as the dosh runs in. Case and point: my town has had shitty internet service for decades and the isp's didn't do anything to improve it because we'll buy internet reguardless so why put in the extra effort. Finally it was up the the municipal government to bring fiber optics to the people, which would not have happened under an ideal libertarian society
Anarchism would ideally work much like frontier societies, think the wild west except you've got to call a town meeting for any decission that elected officials would otherwise make, under very favorable conditions (eg strong societal mores) it could actually thrive... The problem is scale, even with means such as social media anarchists would not be able to build even moderately advanced industrial societies, they would certainly not be able to cope with multi-culturalism... Utopian anarchism, the idea taken to an extreme by hippies/punks would be even more dysfunctional, even small comunes are usually led by what are in effect autocratic juntas... Libertarianism in moder n usage has nothing to do with anarchism, it's become code for fiscal conservative policies coupled with liberal attitudes regarding society, eg tolerant/secularist conservatives, liberals who are for limited government/free enterprise, etc. The problem with libertarianism is no such societies exist, you can have the oposite; traditionally conservative societies with a strong welfare system is where Europe was at some decades ago, but you can't have both a liberal society and limited government... The reason is the more conservative elements will always try to impose their values (tirany of the majority) and with full economics means at their disposal this eventually results in either them taking over (and growing government) or minorities becoming majorities (eg the poor) and taking over themselves. Humans will always look for power...
TLDR, anarchism and liberatarianism are both shit ideologies
>>688898433
/thread
>>688898453
america was a fucking shit hole before a socialist took over and forced the vandergilts to create a proper fucking nation
>>688894035
How does it feel to be an ideologue?
>>688898054
Countries like Spain and Greece with the most 'labor rights' also have the highest unemployment. That's bad for business to start with but it's also bad for workers.
>>688898198
So if you tax something you don't get less of it? It's ridiculous to think taxing someone 100% would stop them investing?
Very interesting. I'll write home to mother about this
>>688897846
Even under this awful government (both parties!), the dollars we spend on government regulation of corporations is still superior to unregulated corporate power.
>>688898433
/thread
>>688898453
>18 trillion in debt
>wealthiest
ok hun
>>688898778
>spain and greece are poor because of worker rights, not 4000+ years of antisocial land use by el rey and hoi polloi
you're simplifying shit too much, i can't take it
abandon thread
>>688898657
>America has had socialist policy at any point in history
Oh I'm having a giggle m8. FDR literally did nothing of any actual significance, and for that matter was not a socialist.
>>688898778
Hello, straw man! Who suggested 100% taxation?
>>688898621
>when what you have works fine
Does it work fine, though?
>which would not have happened under an ideal libertarian society
Under an ideal libertarian society everything would be perfect, surely. I am not misunderstanding the word "ideal" here, am I?
>>688894824
you can tho people do it all the fucking time
>>688898778
That's a lie, france, germany, the UK, Scandinavian countries all have stronger labor laws and distribute more benefits through their welfare systems
>>688894035
I want the government to restrict your life, im just collateral damage
>>688898243
>economic reform
Please, do go on.
How will you tear down the price system and individual pursuit of material wealth and status without violent coercion?
>>688898657
The world was a shithole. The U.S. was such a bright spot that people emigrated to it by the millions. Socialists don't get to take credit for what the private sector built.
>>688899079
he was a scandanavian style social democrat, his new deal legislation included taxes that took from the rich and social programs like the WPA et al that gave to the poor
welfare is socialism, haven't you ever watched fox news?
>>688899040
>annual gdp of 18 trillion
>dollar is the strongest currency in the world, also the global currency
>implying that debt to China actually matters, or any debt for that matter.
HAHAHAHAHA
>>688898621
Nice anecdote friend. But it seems to me government has much less of an incentive to improve their schools, fix their roads, or sort out waste and fraud in the military.
Whereas a businessman who sits idle is losing his own money.
Honestly it seems to me you might be misunderstanding that situation- since if there were excess profits any internet company could have stepped in and made money. But regardless your anecdote doesn't address the wider examination of incentives.
>>688899067
But that doesn't explain their unemployment.
Laws which make hiring more expensive reduce hiring.
That's why they have so much unemployment.
>>688899092
If 100% taxes make investment less attractive, do 99% taxes make investment less attractive? Why are being so silly?
>>688899160
No they really do have more unemployment. Don't call me a liar just because you disagree with me, it's gay
>>688899144
I am quite sure I said legally.
I cannot legally buy heroin.
>>688899188
think of it this way, our economy thrives on violent coercion to keep peoples grubby mitts off your robots so your robots can make stuff for those people to buy
what if instead we just used the robots to make the stuff we need and leave money and ownership of the robots out of it
all we have to do is have one little purge and get all the robots working for who is left and instead of having an economy that thrives on and rewards violence
I mean even if our plan doesn't ever work, it's functionally similar to capitalism -- regular violence to protect a perception of safety and stability
>>688899244
>Scandinavian social democrat
You mean a style of government that didn't exist at the time of his presidency?
>take from the rich and give to the poor!
Oh good a system of government based on a children's story.
>welfare=socialism
LOL
>>688899697
That's because you're the governments property, get over it. Abide by the laws or get out, that's how a system works.
>>688899993
oh no my metaphor is anachronistic
whatever shall i do
>>688899997
And I say the system should be changed so that I have that freedom.
>>688894035
Because I want the government to protect me from people like you.
>>688900222
Learning what the word anachronism means would be a decent start.
>>688900288
You're not free, and you'll never be free, sorry bud, but it's too far progressed for you to realized how contained you truly are, the freedom you think you have is only a illusion to keep you content while you still think you have a chance.
>>688900520
Libertarianism does not mean anarchism.
How many times has that been said in this thread?
>>688899744
wtf
Why would I destroy industry that produces shit I want? In fact, if I saw some anarchist faggot trying to wreck my town, maybe I'd stomp his ass and call the cops.
Who decides what we "need"? How do you get millions of people to spontaneously cooperate to establish the supply chains for something as simple as a pencil without free trade?
Even if we lived in a star trek universe where machines produced everything without human input, why would anyone learn to build, repair, or improve the robots if they got the goods for free?
Why can't you get together with the other frycooks and womens studies graduates and buy some of your own robots?
>one small purge
Why bother? Your planned economy (that is somehow still compatible with your anarchist ideals) would cause famine and rampant suffering without any added effort.
>>688900546
kek
>>688900546
look dipshit, fdr and his parties made laws to make government organizations funded by taxes to provide a social safety net. today this is called 'scandanavian style social democracy', that's why I used this phrase even though it was anachronistic to use in reference to fdr
because of the faggots here i'm all for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
"communism is not love. communism is a hammer with which we will crush the enemy." (mao"
>>688900520
What a weak faggot
Why would you admit that?
>>688894035
Why would any sane person not be libertarian?
Because libertarians are short sighted idiots that don't understand basic things like logistics or bureaucracy.
>>688900653
I know... that is why I said stuff should be done to make it so we do have freedom...
>>688896032
For profit. There are people who would sell tainted food and drugs without qualms,would stockpile dangerous explosives in crowded residences, would treat public menace diseases with quack medicine, as long as they made money.
>>688900775
the economic calculation problem may have been a problem before supercomputers and 21st century production methods, even still have you ever heard of running a surplus?
>>688900919
So they are just the same as every other fucker then.
>>688900948
Good luck with that.
>>688898778
Spainfag here.
Let me tell you how wrong you are in your assumption of having the 'most labor rights' overhere.
We absolutely DON"T!. You work, you have no rights, you can get fired at any point for any reason made up or exaggerated.
And when you do,.. you'll receive a maximum of 70% of your last earned income for a maximum of about 6 months afterwhich you can go fuck yourself.
Unemployment is high here because except for tourism along coastal areas and the 3 major cities the amount of industry is negligible.
Also
Niggers
(pic related)
>>688900815
>>688900546
samefag or two idiots?
>>688900919
We understand that bureaucracy is a disease of central planning and the state. And that logistics are what make socialism impracticable and a price system exactly necessary
>>688901001
Again, small government does not mean no government.
That small government can regulate stuff like that.
>>688900859
Another maoist state would be the best advertisement for free markets one could ask for.
Shall we start trying to smelt iron in our backyards now, or shall we wait til after the first mine steel mill foremen are executed for falsifying their production quotas?
>>688901072
Oh, I see, you have no idea how industries reliant on global supply chains work.
>>688898778
>what's causality
nigga really
>>688894174
>not caring about the force that shapes the world around you
>opting to bitch about not getting your way, whenever it comes around, instead
Enjoy your shit taxes and loss of rights, scumbag. It's not being willing to defend someone else's or your own rights that leads to slavery. But you're too caught up in your own, tiny, insignificant world to care about that right now. Maybe in 10 years when your nuts set into place, champ.
>>688901172
Yeah, your right. It will probably be a bit tricky.
Fuck it, freedom probably isn't even worth it...
A lot of libertarians use heavy-handed rhetoric that, when followed to its logical conclusion, would lead people to believe that libertarianism and anarchism are the same thing. An example of this would be "taxation is theft"
So, for any libertarians in this thread that are playing dumb when someone seems to conflate libertarianism and anarchism and responding with the question, "Why do you think anarchism and libertarianism are the same thing" there is your answer.
And for libertarians that don't describe libertarianism in ways that can be read as being the same as anarchism you're really not that different from Democrats or Republicans -- you all believe that the government has a moral right to interfere in the affairs of individuals, you just don't want them to do it when it comes to certain things.
>>688901269
Two idiots.
>>688901239
Unemployment doesn't come about because of lack of industry, ie, ability to be productive. It comes about because the cost of hiring is raised to a point where those who are least productive are excluded from the work place.
Involuntary unemployment cannot exist in the free market.
>>688901391
Perhaps you do not understand what "libertarian" means. It has nothing to do with the size of government (national or village) but what they are permitted to regulate (what are personal liberties).
>>688894035
>Why would you want your life limited by the government?
As if you cunts do anything other than go to work then come home and watch TV and browse the internet all day. Life is a game with the illusion of choice.
>>688901646
>And for libertarians that don't describe libertarianism in ways that can be read as being the same as anarchism you're really not that different from Democrats or Republicans -- you all believe that the government has a moral right to interfere in the affairs of individuals, you just don't want them to do it when it comes to certain things.
Kind of, yeah. They should do it less. How is that bad?
>>688900833
Using big words awkwardly and incorrectly doesn't make you sound smart, although based on what you just said it seems that you don't understand what a metaphor is either, maybe you should learn that one first, then once you learn what a metaphor is maybe you can try throwing around words like anachronism.
>>688901391
Philippines is the libertarian idle, small government which barely regulates individual freedom.
Thanks no I have no interesting living in such a world. Have mercs in every store front because police do shit, Have extra fire extinguishers everywhere because firemen do shit.
Have to pay 1000 of dollars a month for mail service since it's all private. Traffic is a fucking grid lock nightmare because no one follows road rules.
>>688901955
i know what a metaphor is, it's one idea wearing another idea like a hat
>>688901649
>>688901269
Samefag
>>688901781
I know. By "small government", I was talking about the size of its role.
>>688901961
Have a coup every other year because government is too small for people to care about. Medical is a fucking joke since quacks and doctors are treated the same.
Toll roads everywhere, no sewer since it's all separate septic tank systems.
Libertarian dream such does look like a shithole.
>>688902145
Saying that FDR was a Scandinavian style social democrat is not a metaphor, it's a statement. Albiet a retarded statement, it's a statement none the less.
>>688901961
It may be idle, but it is not ideal.
That is a shit example.
>>688901961
Pretty sure Philippines banned guns and are now starting to enable death squads to massacre drug dealers.
>$1000 for a mail service because it's private
Fallacy of the single cause, look it up.
>>688902388
Fine care to name a current libertarian government that isn't a 3rd world shit hole?
>>688902381
so my label was correct but anachronistic, but im still wrong about everything because i used a wrong word despite it communicating my idea anyway?
>>688902563
So to prove a system can work and be good, it must exist right now?
Just because I don't know, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
But even if it doesn't, you have proven nothing.
>>688902563
There are no libertarian governments in the entire world, the libertarian system doesn't allow the elites to hold enough power so no country has ever adopted it. The United States right after the American Revolution was the closest anyone has ever gotten.
>>688901646
You're right about one thing
There are plenty of libertarians with more nuanced views. Just like democrats are not all tumblr feminists, and all republicans do not march around funerals with signs that say "God Hates Fags".
I'd happily support a negative income tax, for example. If we must redistribute wealth, let's just do it instead of farting around with "muh programs" (most of which spend 80% of their budget administering the 20% of the money that actually goes to help people).
>>688901961
>>688902348
Culture matters. That's as disingenuous as comparing Scandi socialism to Venezuela.
>>688902399
>implying my single example is the only example I have
private schools cost even more, so most don't go to them hurrah for 3rd grade educated work force.
>libertarians
>>688902348
>quacks and doctors are treated the same
There's no way this isn't bullshit. It's true that government could be the sole source of all ability to judge or signal product quality, but I doubt it
>>688902563
I don't know that there are any pure libertarian governments, but in general the ones with more economic freedom and lower taxes have the fastest growth in incomes and living standards
>>688902959
Pretty solid argument, right there.
>>688902700
If you aren't intelligent enough to use a word like metaphor correctly then I don't really see the point in humoring any of the other retarded shit you said. I'd rather just make fun of you.
>>688902826
>>688902826
A TIME WHEN PEOPLE WERE LITERALLY PROPERTY TRANSPORTED AND BRED LIKE LIVESTOCK IS THE CLOSEST WE'VE GOTTEN TO LIBERTY?
>>688902801
I have proven that it doesn't work well enough that even a US state hasn't tried it. I mean Kansas went full retard and not tax the rich. Completely screwed the state to the point federal gov will likely have to step in in the next few years to fix it.
And yet no state governor will try out libertarian ideals I wonder why that is...
>>688902860
Private schools cost more everywhere in the world tbh.
You should be concerned with proving that central planning is more efficient at using resources than an unregulated private sector. Ie, that socialism works better than capitalism (pro tip it doesn't)
>>688902700
Also you blatantly samefagged earlier to agree with yourself.
>>688903108
Name one, US has one of the lowest government tax rates on income and citizens btw.
>>688903356
kek
>>688901901
It's not necessarily bad, it's the kind of libertarian I am after realizing that the moral arguments really don't work.
>>688903356
Niggers aren't humans retard.
>>688903469
That's why they should have cut spending. Of course they don't because the right wing also loves to spend.
Tbh we don't emphasise cutting taxes for the rich, everyone's taxes need to go down but nice caricature
>>688895589
You sound like a villian who thinks theyre in the right..
>>688903469
>Not tax the rich = libertarian
Please tell me I have just misunderstood your point.
>>688903620
you're gonna eat those words soon
>>688903496
No but for utilities government controlled non-profit works far better than for-profit endeavors for large projects. It's the efficiency of large organizations.
This is why companies merge and get bigger. Central planning and Capitalism aren't the only two ways to price something. Specifically non-profit, federally funded and locally controlled tend to be the most efficient usage of dollars.
>>688902860
There's absolutely nothing about libertarian ideals that precludes public compulsory education. Though I might prefer that local stakeholders have more say in how their children are educated.
>>688903356
#triggered
>>688903469
Meanwhile, Texas and New Hampshire do just fine with a number of policies that might be called libertarian. California legalized weed thanks to a libertarian prevailing on authoritarians to let go of the urge to jail adults for using a drug that does less harm than draft beer.
No government adopts any single ideology completely--even the soviet union engaged in international trade, through something that looked very much like market participation.
>>688903753
Morality has no place in this.
Morality is just a subjective mess.
Let people do what they want, as long as it doesn't bother anyone else.
That is as "moral" as it should go.
>>688903912
I've been here long enough to know a what a desperate retard samefagging to agree with himself looks like. But by all means post the screencap that will prove me wrong.
>>688903356
kek
>>688904341
>>688903650
Meh a bit. Historically it's been richer than Europe for that reason.
Although really USA is slipping with regulations and too many minorities. I think it will fall by the wayside soon.
>>688903356
>thinking that niggers weren't better off as slaves
Hahahahah
>>688894035
I don't really fall in to any bracket, I like a bit of everything
>>688896645
THIS LOL!!!!!!!!
>>688905032
Kill yourself commie
>>688904523
Holy shit you actually wrote on your hand for the sake of an arguement on 4chan. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>688905032
>>688905253
He did win, though.
>>688904523
You seem upset
>>688905333
Still a brown skin though which is sorta a permanent loss.
>>688905333
>>688904523
Samefag
>>688904190
Ok, I want to not pay taxes. That shouldn't bother anyone else because it's my money, not theirs.
>>688905521
Does that mean a brown libertarian?
t. newblood
>>688905521
kek, what?
>>688901678
Im not sure what you're smoking bro, but it sure is some mean stuff.
> Unemployment doesn't come about because of lack of industry
Allright, lets sink down to sesame street level for you.
No industry means no jobs.
Build your own business? Get raped by taxes and laws and that is only after you payed your way through the red tape.
Hiring doesn't cost shit here. 10euro an hour including taxes and socials will get you a properly trained and experienced laborer from any type of industry.
You want a properly trained, qualified, educated and experienced teacher / engineer / or even a pilot to work for minimum wages 12 hours a day, 7 days a week as a barhand? No problem,... you can chose whatever.
Now that is the situation.
Its all supply and demand. Demand is high, supply 10% sufficient at best.
Also
Niggers
>>688905743
Which is fine as long as you and everyone around you don't like roads, police, fire, military, food or drug quality controls, company control of your life, medical anything, electricity, sewer, or public water.
>>688905690
I am not drawing on my hand, but no samefag.
>>688905333
Yes yes, "debates" on /b/ have winners.
>>688906060
Have a picture of a ajar door
>>688901678
>Involuntary unemployment cannot exist in the free market.
Oh please...... Do Elaborate
>>688905743
True
Even though keeping your property and refusing to be extorted bothers people, that's fine in so far as people have a right to do so and a right to self defense.
>>688905922
I don't know what you're smoking, but I don't see any arguments.
Regardless of how much 'industry' there is, people will not be completely unable to work unless government destroys all low paid jobs.
Even 19th century economies with pitiful industry still had negligible unemployment. Unemployment rose in tandem with the regulatory state
>>688905999
military and police are the only things on that list that couldn't be handled by the private sector
>>688905827
>Dark skins need not apply
>>688906710
The police could too imo
t. just sayin
>>688907001
And military
>Mercs are cheap if a bit criminal
>>688906976
The guy is white, though.
>>688907122
Public good problem tbh
Question is whether a standing military is necessary on the scale we have now.
>>688907122
One wealthy person hiring an army of mercenaries and a country of taxpayers funding a military are two different things though.
>>688906710
So instead of paying taxes you'd rather spend 2x or more money on for profit companies which do the same service for a higher cost?
Since people can opt in and out and they have to make a profit 2x the cost is being generous on my part.
>>688907183
You watched him do that shit to the other guy and still took that bait?
>>688907316
How can he be white with dark brown skin? Are you blind?
>>688907677
Yeah...
>>688907824
I am colour blind actually. So, yeah.
>>688906572
>Regardless of how much 'industry' there is, people will not be completely unable to work unless government destroys all low paid jobs.
>people will not be completely unable to work unless government destroys all low paid jobs.
>all low paid jobs
>jobs
Dude. Seriously. Get your head out of your arse. Expect for a few bars and some ranchos there is nothing outthere outside of the coastal regions which would inspire entrepeneurs nor foreign companies to set up shop.
Government hasn't got shit to do with that.
God bless capitalism.
>>688907956
>colour
Shoo shoo slimey limey
>>688907595
>spend 2x or more money
depends which year you ask me. I've had years where I come ahead on taxes paid versus services rendered, and I've had years where I've come out behind on it.
>>688894824
A mother can decide to fuck her life by delivering a retarded child, and she can even ask taxpayer money to support this retard.
You can fuck yourself slowly over the years with legal drugs, greatly increasing your chance of various diseases by taking them, and you can even ask for taxpayer money to cover your very expensive treatment.
But vaporizing a good CBD strain, which is even healthy to you is just too much to accept. It's maybe because cannabis has no tax and tax evasion is very bad, worse than murder.
>>688907595
>profit means higher costs
Literal socialists are the funniest.
Pro tip most privatisations result in a price drop of twenty to forty percent.
You cannot just ignore the difference in incentives between a private company which earns its funds on the market and a state monopoly which gets its money through extortion regardless of how efficient it is.
Also pro tip competition reduces profit to zero in the long run.
>>688908214
Obviously they don't exist because of labour regulations.
If you took away the regulations companies would start and unemployment would disappear to the extent the regulations disappeared. Maybe low pay to start with but it would get the economy going
>>688908592
Why can't all methods of life fucker uppery be legal, though?
>>688899067
This,
fucking retards in here
>>688905254
what is this fucking clusterfuck
>>688908753
>Citation needed
Most privatization initiatives hide the costs by only showing one of the costs.
Take Walmart, lower prices ya? creates jobs ya? Costs the federal government billions in low paid workers asking for food, medical, and other government services in order to live.
How about them school voucher programs which charge the state 2x, (no tax, school vouchers) and the parents 1x (kids have to buy their own books and school supplies which public schools just provide) to educate their kids
>>688896695
Yeah right.. In most countries economists say "open market and let free the labor contracts so will come investments" and then fucking nothing.. All the world is poor and the rich are more rich. Fuck (most of) the economists. The monopolies exist, we don't see them because most of the corporations have another corporations properties and so on, we just see one part of the iceberg.
>>688909729
Ok, I'm not the guy you were responding to, but you have to realize that both your examples incorporate government fuckery. They don't really stand up as examples of free market failure
but yeah, I think the other guy is going to articulate it better, so you may as well wait for him instead of replying to me
>>688909729
What's the economic cost of sending your kids to be "educated" in a glorified daycare with 35 kids to a class, with social promotion and the like?
>>688909729
If we had a negative income tax scheme, Wal Mart would have to offer a better deal.
Maybe wal mart could hire some of the bureaucrats and middle managers who get most of the money earmarked for the social safety net?
>>688909729
The existence of Walmart does not create poor people you complete retard. Walmart doesn't steal from people; it distributes goods and gives low skilled workers jobs.
No one is made worse off.
Your understanding is flawed
>>688894035
Because not everyone has the same degree of agency and time preference that I (or presumably you) do. Most people are retarded and are kept in line by societal pressure and the threat of state force.
Also economic ideologies are retarded.
>>688909982
If we were on 8gag I could deliver the full lump of graphs (I have more like this) but in most countries liberalization has meant higher wages.
Chile, Singapore, Ireland, Korea, Thailand, China, Mauritius, and India a bit.
Also economists would be able to find cartels when they looked in the data. They don't because raising prices above costs always creates a large incentive to undercut the cartel.
>>688894035
is there porn of this
>>688910660
Well lets take a school voucher program claims at 3000 can educate your kid as teh 6900 cost of public schooling.
3000x20 = 60000 which they have to use to pay teacher salary average 75000 and rent we'll put that around 1000 per kid, admin costs around 250 per kid and of course some profit say a nice 15% so 450 per kid.
oops there state goal of reduced class sized failed. so lets do 35 instead.
1700 base + 2150 salery = 3850.
Oops still fail. But 3850 still less than 6900 right? Well once you add in specialized math, science, music, art, ect teachers all which have higher salaries.
It comes to 4500 per kid. Still better? Oh wait now lets force them to take the retards, the criminal kids that public education has to take.
Spec ed teacher runs you a nice 150k and security around another 40k per guard.
And you get 5500 now. Still better you say? Well now lets give those kids a library, gym, desks, perhaps other things that a public school has but most private school don't how about after school sports? Parent teacher conferences, furthering education from teachers?
Oops there is 7500 oh and that 6900? ya it actually usually comes out to be 4700 in most schools. 6900 is from the highest per student private schools could find.
Didn't feel like making a thread, so what would you price this snare? I picked the fucker up from a yard sale for $10. It's pearl with a red gleam on the sides. It has a REMO top that's purposefully worn looking.
>>688911976
Shame the average chinaman won't see a dime of it
libertarians are at the low bell curve end of social connection, similar to autistics. we are a eusocial species, we live in community, community always has practices for how to balance group vs individual. most people are fine a certain degree of control over their behaviors by others, whether its family or government. the Enlightenment was the idea that individuals, all individuals, matter, and that society is not the central organizing principle, nor is the king, but its the individuals. having said that, anything more individualistic than say mainstream american culture is probably pathological. so fuck off libertariantards.
>>688911976
False data bro
>>688894035
>Why would you want your life limited by the government?
I dont wanna be limited and governed by the so called liberal cucks
Who censor free speech, want to impose socialism and value diversity more than capacity
Fuck liberals want some sort of dictatorship masked in rainbow and flowers
>>688894035
Because I realize the government also serves to protect us from ourselves.
I'd rather be at the mercy of 'big guberment' that I atleast get a say in, than be at the mercy of private interest who only care about king dollar.
Libertarian representatives have a very anti environmental regulation/public land track record, and nature is the main thing I care for.
I am very libertarian socially and belive everyone should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm others or diminish our quality of life(hurt feelings don't count) but the libertarian party isn't really about that.
>>688913232
looks like a cheap peace of shit pearl import or worse. the head is probably fyberskin or something like that. pic is pretty bad though so cant say for sure. why dont you post the actual model name of the snare
>>688913293
AnCaps, you're talking about AnCaps
>>688913439
It says Pearl Forum Series, where would I find the exact model?
>>688896695
>Most economists accept that monopolies don't survive in a free market
You just went full retard, m8. Monopolies can exist due to economies of scale and natural barriers to entry no matter how free the market. Furthermore, free markets are still subject to market failure and do not guarantee that social costs are adequately taken into account.
>>688898778
>>688899079
>what are the programs that primed the US to exit the depression
come on now my dude
>>688899665
>>688905254
who is they sexy cuckess in the pic?
>>688914139
Anna Kendrick. Also, do you live under a rock?
>>688897515
>gif
>>688914366
I dont watch TV, most of my movies are bluray encodes from torrents same for TV shows
I thought it was her though just wasnt sure, so thanks
>>688905333
No body loses a debate unless they are proven wrong and don't learn anything from it.
In a real argument everybody wins
>>688894035
I dunno op you have 200+ posts and no 2 people can agree what the meaninf of a libertarian is so maybe thats why i dont choose to side with people who cant even side with each other
>>688915183
Ah, so you don't side with anyone? The only group I've ever seen march in lockstep are the SJW crowd, and even they have SOME differing opinions
>>688915639
i know what guidelines my political party follows im saying that no one here can give me a run down of what this party stands for what it hopes to accomplish and how it will do it, so following something like that seems to be jsu a big waste of time
>>688894035
>tfw youre so desperate you would let her do it
>>688916164
Your face is a big waste of time to your dick.
>>688911358
No one is worse off except people that pay taxes to subsidize welfare and foodstamps for under paid workers. ie you and me. Are you this fucking stupid?
>>688894035
>an-cap here.
>>688917115
>underpaid
There's your first mistake right there.
>>688894035
Because we as a people have to preserve the civil liberties that supplement our way of life. That being said, paying taxes and having federal regulations that could potentially endanger the lives of others are a fair trade. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. With the acquisition of liberty, sacrifices must be made for society as a whole. The best example of this is the construction of roads and schools. The libertarian flaw is in the implied benevolence of the 1% to the things that the federal or state governments already do with tax revenue. Is the money always spent wisely or efficiently? Fuck no it isn't but it up to us as tax paying citizens, to exercise our civil liberty to vote upon the things and methods by which that tax revenue is distributed. So while I'm ultimately against big government, I also realize the necessities of government and the implications an extreme lack of government can present.
>>688916164
https://www.lp.org/platform
https://garyjohnson2016.com/issues/
Most of us start from here and then deviate.
Admittedly, the biggest problem with the libertarian platform at this point is how long it would take to implement anything safely within a relatively short period of time. Major policy change takes 10 years, and most of what we want requires several steps of major policy changes.
Example: Abolish the IRS. Our current tax code is so complicated and all-encompassing that we really do need the IRS for it
So, to abolish the IRS we'd need to great simplify our tax code and cut taxes to easily manageable levels. But, we're 18 trillion dollars in debt as a nation right now, so we can't just cut revenue. We need to balance the budget
Our budget for 2016 has an approximate 600 billion dollar deficit. To get that to a surplus without raising taxes we'd need to cut a lot of social programs, subsidies, and military spending
But since so many people rely on our current social programs, we'd need to give them a lot of time to get their shit in order before we just yanked everything. We also subsidize so much that completely eliminating them out of nowhere would send prices jumping around like a squirrel on meth. Military spending is also notoriously hard to cut. Touching our troops pay and benefits is a big no-no, i don't think any sane person wants that. We also can't cancel R&D programs without wrecking the budgets of private contractors, who planned around their lucrative deals. The best we could do is try to cut some waste
Getting back to the kind of small night-watchman government we want is really the work of a generation, and I don't anticipate even getting close to it in my lifetime even if Gary Johnson wins and we start to get more libertarian senators. I'd love for it to happen, but I'm realistic
What I'm mostly excited about with the current upswing in libertarian interest is the possibility of getting a third party federally recognized
>>688917210
AnCaps do have one thing going for them, and that's not being an AnCom
>>688918024
cuz AnCom makes no sense whatsoever.
>>688917282
Then make your FAGGOT ass so goddamn good you are overpaid you worthless cuck lazy sjw bitch. Fuck you and the bernieclintonianbama ass you rode in on, and gtfo out of /b/. Good for nothing hapless, worthless, piece of shit
>>688917282
Walmart workers ARE underpaid and a large percentage ARE on government assistance despite walmart making record profits every year. What do you propose?
>>688918415
Sir, kindly fuck off. You obviously having the reading comprehension of toddler.
>>688918570
One cannot be "underpaid" if they (1) willingly work for a given wage, and (2) the wage is competitively set. Walmart workers receive low pay because they perform low-skilled work.
>>688894035
Because people are retarded and less fucking bullshit would happen with a centralised government with little democracy.
This does have the adverse effect of promoting corruption, though.
>>688918829
I humbly apologize. I directed my fucking shit at the wrong post. I'll leave now.
>>688894035
Libertarians love to obsess over abuses of public power while turning a blind eye to abuses of private power.
>>688919264
Wal-Mart workers are paid a low wage because corporate America had done everything possible to devalue labor and reduce their dependence on it. That works great for them, it doesn't work for the people who find that the "menial" jobs that their fathers supported a family with are now unable to support even a single person.
>>688920091
What kind of private abuse do you mean? Private abuse would generally violate the NAP, which would make it a valid target for intervention
I guess I am for personal freedoms above most other things, but you're retarded if you pick a side.
>>688911358
>Walmart doesn't steal from people; it distributes goods
At prices so low that they actually take losses in order to destroy their competition and force their vendors to produce the cheapest shit possible in order to keep up with their demands.
>and gives low skilled workers jobs.
Which do not pay enough for them to live, forcing them to depend on government subsidies. In other words, taxpayers help cover the insufficient salaries of Walmart's employees while the Waltons hoard more money than you an accurately conceive of.
It's a racket.
>>688920569
See >>688920610
Just think about the concept of minimum wage for a second. You cannot live anywhere in this country on minimum wage, and yet the only reason companies pay that much is because it's against the law not to.
>>688920610
And because the government provides those subsidies, nobody gives Walmart the finger and leaves because they can get by. It devalues the labor.
>>688920873
Because the Waltons use a fraction of their absurd wealth lobbying for it. Meanwhile the government could step in and say "you need to start giving these people a living wage and benefits," and literally the entire economy would improve. Because the truth is when you pay people more money, they spend it. That is the definition of a strong economy.
>>688920746
I lived on minimum wage for quite a while. My experience isn't everybody's, but I never got on snap or any similar programs, never starved. Ate a lot of eggs and ramen, though.
Someone tell me what this means about me.
>>688894035
because your movement has been taken over by a coalition of the most undesirable life styles on the planet
>>688921238
When, in the 70s?
>>688921244
It means you almost got a bullseye
>>688921244
Umm...
Lutheran?
>>688921340
2010-2013
>>688921236
Not that guy, but then the worth of your dollar diminishes.
>>688921244
It means you're the most neutral ass mother fucker in the world
>>688920746
>You cannot live anywhere in this country on minimum wage
You must realize this statement is illogical. So let's male minimum wage $100/hr. No, $500! That sounds like a good idea. Or we could let water seek its own level and let companies pay what they want to attract the caliber of employee they want.
>>688894035
So that my life isn't further limited by other people.
>>688921496
Sounds about right
>committing to any political idea
That's fun and all but the reality is that nobody actually knows what the fuck works.
Marxism was pretty fun until it was all like "hey why don't we just murder and starve all the people we disagree with?"
>>688921723
That bit happens once they run out of resources to distribute. Nothing starts a good purge like the threat of starvation.
>>688894824
>I want to have that freedom. The freedom to destroy my life.
...first of all you already have it. The government is not an omnipresent safety rail, it's just more fallible little humans like yourself.
Second of all... why? Why do you want that? Do you want to destroy yourself? If so, then what's really stopping you? If not, then why does it matter if doing so is prohibited?
This is a really childish, myopic worldview.
>>688921880
It's kind of happening again with the whole "we're not predators" and "we're not competitive."
Fine you be none of that and we'll see how you fair.
>>688921937
The idea is that if you destroy your life, you're an idiot, but if you're not allowed to destroy your life, you're a coddled child.
Destroying your life could be anything from snorting coke until your nose falls off, or going to life in the mountains growing turnips and ignoring people. The first is explicitly outlawed, the second isn't explicitly illegal but all the things necessary to do it are illegal.
>>688921492
Can you explain how?
>688894035
>Why would you want your life limited by the government?
Why would you want hospitals, prisons, and the military controlled by private corporations
>>688895247
>So libertarian means anarchism?
>Twat.
>The government should ensure the freedom of the population.
So you're not a libertarian.
The government sets the rules of society.
What is your definition of freedom? Free to work 40 hours a week and have enough money to rent and pay for food?
Or does 'free' mean that the employer is free to offer me whatever pay he wants, at whatever hours I want, and then free to not pay me, or free to deduct from my wages for bullshit? If he isn't, who's going to enforce that? Who pays for that enforcement?
Does it mean companies are free to make leaded paint? Leaded gas?
Does it mean I'm free to make a stock brokerage like in Boiler Room or Wolf of Wall Street and cheat people?
Does it mean I'm free to squat on someone's land? If not, who enforces it?
If the owner enforces it, how do you enforce that he's the owner? Who has the property records? Who pays for them? Who pays for the enforcement? How do you raise the money for that?
Am I permitted to continue school until I'm 18, or is the great big local megacorp (because after all, someone is free to make one, to engage in questionable ethical decisions to take over competitors and freely offer the populace subsistence wages, and they have nowhere else to go for work, because I was free to own every business in town or free to form a Trust and co-ordinate anti-labour activities?)
Go free yourself from your own juvenile ideas of freedom.
>>688922417
'Cause ya can stop paying a private corporation if they fuck up.
The military and prisons are pretty iffy to jump to from our current situation, though. This is why I'm a minarchist and not an ancap
This is the info of a rapist douche
>>688918302
Let's raid him
>>688922417
>Why would you want hospitals, prisons, and the military controlled by private corporations
I thought the first two were already privatized.
>>688922588
>'Cause ya can stop paying a private corporation if they fuck up.
oh ya?
stop paying your internet
you have what, 2? 3? ISPs near you? see how much they respond to your 'pressure'.
>>688922514
Hey man, you're the one choosing to decide libertarianism always has and only ever will be anarchism. If you want to keep arguing with yourself it's cool, but then I'm gonna question whose ideas are juvenile.
>>688922214
>what happened to these mountains
>president Johnson sold the mineral rights of the entire Serria Nevada to Freeport-mcmoran for 20 bucks
>b.butt my turnips
>>688921580
>Or we could let water seek its own level and let companies pay what they want to attract the caliber of employee they want.
read up on the gilded age, buttercup
>>688922214
Do you think you should be allowed to kill other people?
>>688920555
You also forget that back in the day half of the population (women) were out of the labor force by default. Supply is up, wages are down. Simple as that.
>>688922805
That's a funny story, actually. Most ISPs effectively have regional monopolies, because states and towns granted them exclusive rights back when this whole internet fad was getting started. Bad example, dude.
>>688922588
>'Cause ya can stop paying a private corporation if they fuck up.
Not if they have a monopoly on a necessity you can't. Try getting better internet service if you're unlucky enough to live in Comcastan.
>>688922703
They are to a degree, and if you look at our current shit show of a prison system, then you can understand why it should not be privatized
>>688922417
We can have all those things if we collectively choose to have them.
The point being that we've grown beyond the need to have a higher governmental body and it scares the shit out of wealthy people. That's why the two establishment powers decided that they need to be president.
We have highly complex construction equipment and smartphones. Also jetliners, and shit that we don't actually need a federal body for.
The US is not a collective country and it's starting to get annoying having to deal with shit that another region puts on you.
>I don't like what California and New York are up to
>oh too bad they have more representation in the senate
Shit needs to fuck off. Europeans don't understand that we're compartmentalized but for some reason we have to deal with lawmaking from a ten hour drive away.
>>688923029
Of course not, that violates their right to life and also would make me feel awful about hurting somebody. The basic principle of the libertarian party, the non-aggression principle, covers that pretty explicitly.
>>688923238
But you can be aggressive towards yourself, ODing on heroin, slashing your wrists, jumping off a cliff or whatever?
>>688923126
Comcastan got started via exclusivity rights granted by the government. But I would recommend either trying satellite, or if you're ballsy starting a competing firm.
>>688923359
The funny thing about myself is that it's not somebody else? Do you always use the socratic method poorly, or is this just an off day?
>>688923369
Despite what I used to claim in college, my balls aren't worth millions of dollars.
>>688923499
Trust me, we're getting somewhere.
Suppose you have a child, and that child is ODing on something. Do you try to save her life or do you just let her enact her freedom?
>>688923528
Get a plan together, find some investors. I believe in you, dude.
>>688923697
Then you're a fool. Look where we are.
>>688923637
It's your child.
It can try to an hero and you can try to save it.
That's how Autonomy works
>>688923637
Not that anon, but are you suggesting the government is the equivalent of a parent and citizens are its "children?"
>>688923809
That's not the point. Would you try to save the life of your child if they were in the process of destroying themselves?
>>688923864
I'm suggesting that the government and citizens are all human beings, and the desire to preserve and extend human lives underlies basically everything a government is supposed to do.
>>688923637
Alrighty, I'll go along with it
I would try to save her life of course, she's my child. What I wouldn't do is hold a gun to her head if I found her with drugs, or throw her into a concrete room for years after reviving her.
>>688923898
This is getting complicated, other anonymous people are joining our anonymous discussion
I publicly say I'm a libertarian but I totally agree that some of the stuff is completly nonsense (like getting rid of minimal wage, environmental regulations, police, etc) However fundamentally I agree
>>688923752
I mean, it's happening every day man. New businesses don't sprout fully formed from the urban infill.
Clearly it's not fuckin' /easy/, but most people who start new businesses aren't millionaires. They're people with a solid business plan, and the skills to pitch the plan to investors and banks to secure the funds to enact the plan.
>>688899040
We got in that much debt trying to be socialist Europe and providing the world with security for free.
America first
>>688894035
It's not about limiting your life. It's about limiting the potential of others to do you harm.
Fear is the root of authoritarianism.
>>688924010
Ever heard of "tough love?" The line between caring and enabling is tricky, but to err on the side of authoritarianism is a slippery slope. I'll err on the side of greater freedom most, if not all of the time.
>>688924013
The War on Drugs is a crime unto itself. That's not what I'm talking about.
Look, the failure of libertarianism is the fact that no man is an island. That your actions affect other people, like a teenager's suicide affects their entire community or a corporation's policies can affect the entire economy. Where your actions affect other people, government should be able to step in and provide at least a basic level of protection for the people affected by your mistakes.
Not that the government we have is any good at it, that's just what it should be doing.
>>688925082
Even if it means the freedom to go extinct?
>>688925219
Big jump there. Care you elucidate?
>>688925364
you = to :/
>>688925092
I don't want no government, or a government with no power whatsoever. I recognize that the world is not black and white, and the NAP is a guideline, not a universal algorithm. Most libertarians would agree with me, even if they have differing ideas on the specifics. Some libertarians are crazy hermit crabs, but mostly they just post memes and call people statists.
The line where corporate actions are shitty and where corporate actions are violent or abusive can be blurry, and will be debated until humanity finally ascends into machine bodies and lives in personal blow job realities for the rest of time.
>>688923056
right, and you think that Ma Bell was a national monopoly because... why, exactly?
oh right, took over everyone.
then the government broke them up.
