Hey b, I was just thinking, there is no true way to know if there is an afterlife, right? Yet we still believe in religions and such because we believe that we will get rewarded if we do, and that we will be punished if we don't, and all of those things. Anyway, it came across my mind that maybe the best way to deal with religion is to completely erase it. Now, before you go calling me a faggot, hear me out. Many religions such as Christianity and Islam say that if you don't know about god, then you go to heaven, since you didn't know of the rewards and the consequences. So really, the best thing that we can do for younger generations is erase religion. Then, they will all either go to heaven, or a God will have to actually reveal themselves, thus proving their existence.
how about emphasizing critical thinking skills in our education and cultural systems? the greatest vaccines against superstition and baseless belief are logic and reason.
>>684928284
It's pretty much impossible though, unless done over a span of many years. The only real way to eradicate religion would be to go full-on Nazi or some shit
>>684928284
Yes. And both logic and reason would dictate that there is a God. While the evolutionionary belief is still vague the majority of biblical prophecies have come true already. Being an atheist takes more faith than being religious. Perhaps the problem is that atheists are too stubborn to realize that they are in the wrong.
You can't erase religion. Humans always love through mythic structures, most of them not identified as religion. We'll rather go over to a more enlightened relationship to that again when we have fully metabolized science as a cultural enterprise and closed the modern bracket of zealous rationalism. What we should rather confront is a more stable and dangerous condition, the fear of death and how cultures deal with it or not.
>>684929664
I still want to emphasize that if none of us knew about god, we would all go to heaven.
>>684928776
So what? Put all religious people in an internment camp for their beliefs? Someone sounds like Hitler...
>>684929828
You are implying that heaven exists...
>>684926479
Maybe we already did and the other religions filled the void.
>>684930076
I know. If heaven does exist, it's a win. If it doesn't it's still a win.
>>684930177
Nice dubs
>>684929664
yes, logic and reason stem from your assumptions. let's assume that the things that are true are the ideas that can reliably predict outcomes. you smoke all your life? cancer. you exercise everyday? buff. you pray every morning? who fuckin knows, maybe your bowels are more regular than atheists.
>>684926479
stop thinking
>>684926479
Bottom line is that you can't erase religion. There is a reason that only humans are religious; it is a foundation of humanity as a whole. Religion is "an order of existence" and one cannot exist on this earth without believing in existence.
FUCK YOU AND YOUR THREAD
I HAVE HOLY TRIPS
FUCK YOU
>>684930413
No it's not a win because we would all go to hell.
>>684931095
Yet, if no one knew that god existed, then we would all go to heaven, since we wouldn't know of the bible and such and wouldn't be warned of the ten commandments and shit like that.
>>684928284
*tips fedora*
>>684926479
Didn't read
>>684931280
Not true. There are plenty of signs in the world that say God exists without the Bible. Take the sun for example. For all we know it could be the "lake of fire" spoken about in the Bible and everyone has seen it every day of their life. There is no excuse for ignorance.
>>684930960
That's a good point. Pretty much every human civilization that has ever existed made up or adopted gods. I'm just saying that if we got rid of Christianity and Islam and stuff, the ones that might be true, we would have nothing to worry about in that sense. It's pretty much just a shower thought, "If no one knew about god, we would all go to heaven." Not really practical though.
>>684931627
A bit like, if no one knew about little jimmy I wouldn't go to jail
>>684931602
Imagine if we could somehow erase the idea of god and religion and everything from the minds of everyone. As >>684930960 pointed out, religion will always be a thing. Yet we would either get new religions and not have to worry about the old ones, or the gods of the old religions would reveal themselves oncemore. It's not a very good idea, I know, and I'm just going off of what I think about in the shower and shit.
if you never learned to meditate, you would never be enlightened.
>>684931627
It's a thought, I'll give you that. Something worthy of hours of debate. It's just that the Bible doesn't explicitly state that those who never heard of God will go to heaven. Only some sections of Christianity preach that.
>>684929917
You almost said that as if it was a bad thing
>>684932090
Yeah because everyone loved the holocaust.
>>684932344
Wasnt there, so I meh'd the holocaust
In all seriousness religion is for the weak minded this is 2016 you would think humans are smart enough to not believe in myths but they do
If religion was ereased something else mythical would take its place people cant face reality
>>684932883
It may be 2016, but the stupid are still here.
>>684932883
As far as I can tell it's your argument that is weak minded. Also, that "mythical" thing you are talking about is just more religion. Even if you are an atheists, as I stated earlier, you believe in a set of principles that define the existence of humanity and are therefore religious.
>>684926479
There's no way to know so no one knows the rewards or consequences so we all get to go to whatever heaven is or it's a load of bollocks. You can call that anon's wager.
>ITT Masters of reality got it all figured out for the rest of us
>>684933392
What set of principles are those? I never got the atheist pamphlet.
>>684933392
Religion, in many cases is closely related to dogmatism. However, Atheism is more associated with skepticism. Therefore it is a better world view in my opinion
>>684933856
Principles that you believe. It doesn't matter what you believe but you believe something. Stop being ignorant.
>>684934032
There is still a process with which we come to a conclusion on what to believe, some processes are more valid that others.
>>684934032
>ignorant
That's a bad choice of word, bud.
>>684933924
The same can be argued for Atheism. People who are Christians, Buddhists, etc are being constantly oppressed in third world countries for their beliefs. For example, if you were even caught with a Bible in communist China you would be executed.
If you argue with an atheist, he may change his mind. If you argue with a religious person, they'll try to murder you and then vote for Donald Trump.
>>684926479
Ignorance is bliss, however not knowing the law shouldn't get you off the chair.
>>684932883
>>684933924
Atheism in practice is observably just as dogmatic as any religion. You can't know there is no god because it's impossible to prove something doesn't exist, but deciding that means it doesn't is not skepticism
Agnosticism is closer to skepticism
>>684934311
Why?
It's funny to think that not knowing a diety corresponds to being a product of your environment. A deterministic viewer would argue that real free will doesn't exist without some kind of premise or independent action so who can be blamed? Apparently, people who know God.
>>684934425
So religious people aren't being martyred for their faith?
>>684934539
You're arguing we can't know anything and your telling me not to be ignorant. If you can't see the inconsistency there's nothing really more we can get out of this.
>>684934484
Couldn't agree more
>>684934484
I think we should all be described as realists, because at the end of the day it matters none what sequence of logic or reason you develop to structure your beliefs but how you understand your reality as a whole.
>>684934332
At its core atheism was borne out of a skepticism of established religions, but that is not to say that some atheists can't be dogmatic. Anyone who holds a belief can be dogmatic. But what you say about religious persecution is a good example how dogmatism in certain religions leads to the persecution of other beliefs.
>>684934688
So you think I am being ignorant? Criticism isn't ignorance. At least I was listening to your argument.
>>684934470
It's not like not believing in god is akin to killing someone though. Sometimes analogies are good, and at others they are bad. I'd say that not knowing about got would be like a kid not knowing that you have to pay for things. Again, analogies don't really work, but sometimes they're all we have :P
>>684934912
Thank you for agreeing
>>684934484
I absolutely agree with you on agnosticism, However atheism is concerned with what can be proved. Atheism is skeptical of any religion that claims proof of a god or any absolute truth.
>>684931602
Faggot thats retarded
>>684926479
Grew up in religion when I was younger. It states that there will be a time when religion will be banned. So yeah, if some how it happens they'll be screaming that the world is basically ending.
>57 Replies
> 17 Posters
Get some friends you fags
>>684934944
You clearly believe a truth can be reasoned if you're not ignorant. That's a core "belief" of atheism. I don't think you can pick and choose where to apply that.
You might argue that god is indefinable, but I would say god at least needs to 1) be aware 2) created the universe. When you apply a full account of our knowledge to this it's patently absurd.
>>684935309
Use of ad hominem I see? How so?
>>684935033
Yeah, he should really punish his priests and prophets for not doing a better job at explaining that stuff to us.
I just want to tell everyone that ignorance isn't ignoring something, it's not knowing that it's an actual thing. People should not be blamed for ignorance, they should just be helped through mutual education - or something like that.
>>684935575
Forgot picture
>>684929828
No you fucking cunt, if you actually knew shit about religion instead of talking out of the nigger welcoming boipussy your summer "Get Ready For College Philosophy 101" course taught you you'd know that the unknowing spend eternity in purgatory which is considered part of hell. Not a religofag but get your shit straight before posting this shit.
>>684935426
I would never argue that God is undefinable. To some people that may be the case but my beliefs are concrete. I am no atheist and I find it funny that you compare me to one. It only seems to prove my point that all people are religious in some way or another.
>>684926479
Religion is the re-education of people being harassed by their parents and society to obey them and formation of slave work. Harassment induced by so called "black pedagogic" creates willing to fight back, which is done mostly on innocent people, therefore various crimes occur all the time. Child can never feel be at the same level as per (Stallman's proposition for "their") parents, their gods, so it creates supernatural "God", which forbids them to kill and take revenge for living in psychological and economic slavery and gives them sympathy and laws in exchange for being redeemed.
>>684935885
Because religion is a phenomena of the mind. It's a valuable survival tool to applying meaning to otherwise meaningless universe. This causes a lot of strange beliefs and behaviours because of misapplication so science gives us a cold emotionless method of reasoning outside of our experience.
>>684936595
In which case religion is a necessity for society otherwise we would be going at each other's throats
>>684936671
Science may also be used to prove that a certain religion is right. For example, all the prophecies written in the Bible that have come to pass. The main difference between these two sciences is that religion instills hope while the science you describe is "cold" and "emotionless".
I think you're falling into the trap of listening to fundamentalists. Very few religious people believe scripture so literally; the bible is not the word of God as many people suggest. It's the words of monks attempting to guess what God might want.
I study Theology and it's pretty clear that the Church's view is 'be good if you want an afterlife' rather than 'be Christian if you want an afterlife'. Buddhist teaching suggests any religion leads to the same point in some form of enlightenment, including atheism. The prophet Muhammad was even said to have claimed anyone could reach heaven, and openly encouraged people to worship at the Mosques regardless of their faith.
I think the idea of a literal afterlife is pretty sketchy too. The best interpretation I've come to for the idea of heaven is a state of enlightenment or holiness which most major religions describe. 'To be one with God' could mean a lot of things, and I take it to mean being aware of the truth of reality. Isn't that the goal of all religions?
As for whether people could get to that point, I'm not sure. I expect prophets like Jesus and Muhammad were probably much like Buddha; reaching some point of awareness above that of most people. It's not hard to see how that message got jumbled over the years to the point of them being seen as chosen by God himself.
>>684937567
What prophecies? Preferably prophecy of specific events and dates and some coming predictions
>>684937840
Personally I am a Presbyterian and I believe that Jesus is the son of God. My pastor preaches that all people are children of God and the only difference between Christ and the common man is that Jesus is sinless and without fault and that those who reject God are ultimately rejected by the Father
I don't believe in "be good if you want an afterlife" but rather "if you believe in God and follow him without committing an unforgivable sin you may enter the kingdom of Heaven". Catholicism is mainly the religion that preaches "be good if you want an afterlife", not Christianity as a whole.
>>684938551
One example is that Pope Francis is encouraging a one world religion that is written about in the book of revelations concerning the end times (Revelation 13:12)
>>684938551
Not the anon you responded to but I think religious prophecies are interesting. It's a good example of us underestimating how clever old cultures were; they were as smart as we are, but with dated tools. The result is strange prophecies like the Mayan calendar. We took it to mean they thought the end of the world was coming in this century, when it's likely referring to the start of what we now call the 'Age of Aquarius'. It's an astrological date and hold no real significance to anything, but they managed to predict when it would happen down to a few decades. Pretty amazing considering they didn't even have telescopes.
I expect there's similar things in the Bible; mistranslated of early scientific predictions that we take as spiritual weirdness. A good example might be the parting of the seas in the story of Moses. We now think the story is likely a metaphor for how that civilization controlled farming with the tides; the workers leave when the sea goes out. The whole story of Moses can be viewed in this light, as an explanation of workers rights and laws and stuff. Over the years it's just been mistranslated or jazzed up a bit, and we have this weird religious story as a result.
>>684938877
OK. Well, I had the Christian upbringing so I've heard all that sort of stuff before and it was never particularly convincing to me. I guess that's my lose in your eyes.
I've got to go now any who so good day to you sir.
>>684938755
Fair comment, most of my understanding of Christianity comes from Anglo-Catholisism. I'd say that Presbyterian is more fundamentalist than other some other sects though, but I don't meant that as a bad thing. It just follows scripture more closely.
>>684938551
Another would be the massive earthquake about to hit the US Pacific Northwest (Luke 21:11)
>>684939084
Good day
>>684939149
Which is why I prefer the Presbyterian faith compared to other sections of Christianity
>>684939317
For me at least I found it quite limiting. Not meaning to dig on your faith; everyone has different ways of doing things. I prefer to be able to interpret scripture as I struggle to make it relevant without personal experience.
>>684939532
Well that's your own opinion and you are entitled to that. I would like to say that is probably because most Presbyterian pastors are boring. My pastor is still quite young and has a doctorates degree in theology and I find his messages much more invigorating than other Presbyterian pastors.
>>684939532
Not to say that we don't interpret the scripture. We just don't create abstract beliefs from concrete details. In other words we play it by the book.
>>684939861
Experience and energy is a big deal with any preacher. I can stand pastors or priests who can't make me think or keep me entertained at least when they speak. Give me an old man who knows what he's talking about over a new vocation any day.
>>684940090
I think engaged might have been better wording than entertained. I don't worship for fun, though fun can definitely be part of it.
>>684940090
How about a young man with a doctorates degree in theology?
>>684940279
Doesn't mean shit if he can't give a good sermon. I think education is a good think in a preacher, but it isn't everything.
>>684940332
I couldn't agree more
>>684940554
I don't know what the church is like on your end, but in the UK any one seeking vocation has to have a degree in Theology. It's good in some parts because it means all our priests know the bible inside out as standard, but on the flip side it does mean very few people are joining the church. We have a nation full of dying old priests and no one to take them over. Very few people are willing to take 5 years to study for such a low paying, difficult job.
Unfortunately I'm not able to even apply, I'd love to take it up.
>>684940776
I live in America and circumstances are much different here. As I stated, I have a young well educated pastor as well as 2 middle aged assistant pastors.
As far as you in the UK I feel for you. It seems that Christianity, sorry to say it, is a dying religion that is going to be replaced with the new world order. It would be nice if they accepted less experienced pastor but if you are a Presbyterian you would know that they only play it by the books.
what is this
>>684941445
Horse
>>684941170
I don't think the church is gonna die, but I think this is the last generation where it'll play such a big deal in people's lives. It's unfortunate as genuine problems with the church like indoctrination and issues with abuse have overshadowed all the good it can do.
Anyway, nice chatting with you. Much love.
>>684941445
Useless. Neither cylinder is in line with the barrel
>>684933715
Are you even reading the thread retarded nigger or do you just want the attention your parents never gave you
>>684941445
sex machine
