How come there are no moderate Muslim leaders? I'm talking about on a national to worldwide scale?
We always hear that the radical Muslims are the minority of Islam but I can't for the life of me think of any moderate leader by name. We all know the names of radical Muslim leaders but none of the moderate ones.
>>683763110 I'm actually curious about this too. Every moderate but involved Muslim I've met, even if cool about other western stuff, has had a serious hard on for the Jews. What's up with that? Didn't Jews and Muslims used to get along better than either did with Christians?
How do you feel, OP, about it being very very likely you yourself will be killed by your own kind? The same kind of people who misconstrue and use your very religion for their own propoganda to spread fear and kill all others in the name of "jihad"?
>>683762215 Do you follow your text to letter like an ignorant fool, or do you use it as general guidelines to lead you in life while adjusting to changing times? I can ask this to Jews and Christians as well
OP. Mademepost/10. Stick your medieval sandnigger death cult up your ass. You're a fucking simpleton if you believe a bearded jumbo Arab lives in the sky and gets shitty enough to demand murder for those that don't believe he's there. You are a cunt, and every other Muslim fucktard is a cunt also. Go preach you hatred to the sand dunes and stay out of the first world if it irritates you so much.
>>683763913 Jews betrayed Algeria in 1830 by helping french forces to enter major cities where they were a majority, they betrayed egypt when napolion invaded it, they even betrayed germany in WW 1 ???? they believe that non-jews are lower than animal, and this is why they use christian blood to bake the sacred bread
>>683764782 Yeah I know. Probably his longest lasting legacy after memes. Do you think that accounts for most of the vast geographical spread though? Hitler basically only cozied up to Muslims in the Balkans and the levant, no? I kinda feel like it's a broader phenomenon.
>>683763300 i have the proof quran (9-9)" the one who killed a life without a murder or corruption in the land, is just like he killed all the life, and the one who helped to revive it, is just like he revived all of them all" as you see there is no specification to the religion or any thing alse, any life counts
>>683765411 Maybe you should show the verse before that as well "O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year" Your verse refers specifically to the people that the Muslims were fighting the Meccans - so who's lying
>>683765675 This is from Sahih Bukhari the most reliable collection of hadith - the doings and sayings of the Prophet Qais ibn Sa’d reported: A funeral passed by the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and he stood up. It was said to him, “It is a Jew.” The Prophet said, “Was he not a soul?”
>>683762215 That's a funny trick question! Because you can't answer! Because you're dead. Good muslim, get it! DEAD! GET IT? It's funny! Yay! Much laugh.
If you submit to dogma, you enforce victimizing arbitrary irrationalities. That makes you evil by my standards. So you can't be good. You might be "nice", but still. Evil is evil. Muslams and jeebusfanbois and harehare and devout atheists alike. You're all scum. It's the dogma that makes you less. Less than human, less than sentient, less than your potential. All by paradigm. Suck it.
>>683762215 Why don't moderate muslims pick a new label? I mean, they basically hijacked a non-peaceful religion, turned it into something more or less positive and now demand everyone to call the actuals muslims something else, that doesn't make sense to me.
First part is all for shits and giggles. An >inb4 Of sorts.
Second part, though, is absolutely serious. All religions claim monopoly on the truth. All religions makes absolutist claims. All religions enforce victimizing arbitrary irrationalities dogmatically. It's evil. Pure, unadulterated evil. The very core of every single problem we humans has ever had with eachother. So no. No bad morning. Just plain me. The "truth" I percieve. The "reality" I live.
>>683767308 who said they live in deserted lands ? they have oil , uranium , gold , copper, silver, still, a vast open land with the lowest risks of earth quakes and the best place for solar energy generating in the planet and more those muslims who live there are retarded, god gave them every thing they need and yet they refuse to use it
>>683762215 Why do you, just like christians, jews, buddhists, hindus, satanists etc decide to believe in something outside of your possible consciousness, just because someone told you to believe it? (let's face it, you've been TAUGHT to believe in that shit) Especially when it clearly limits your life? Why do you, in a rational world, decide to believe in something so irrational and illogical?
>>683768151 That's all answered by the behavioral sciences. Asking someone who submits to these arbitrary irrationalities instead of finding the answers where they lie makes you as dumb as your post. Sorry, bub, but it's the "truth".
>>683763300 The first two are talking about punishment in the afterlife for unbelievers, but if you don't believe in the Islamic account of Hell, there's nothing to worry about, right?
The third one you took out of context. The full verse is: >[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip." You can see it's 'the Lord' saying this to the 'angels', also insinuating a punishment in the afterlife.
>>683768448 I am also unable to give a complete answer on that because I am not an expert. I don't claim to know the creation of the universe, but that doesn't make what ever made up bullshit true because of it. Even if the big bang didn't happen, even if centuries of proof is misinterpreted somewhere between then and now and our current theories are wrong, you can't say that's proof of any divine power. Your logic is a massive fallacy, you can't explain something by making up your own arbitrary answers just because you're unsatisfied by the initial answer. 1+1 doesn't equal 3, but that doesn't mean it equals pink elephant just because you say so.
How can anybody believe in gods in the year 2016. Islam is a deathcult where they praise a desert warlord pedophile who split the moon in half and flew to heaven with a horse. "God" spoke directly this man, umm yeah right. Islam is also a political agenda and I want you sandniggers out of my country before you start to bring your imaams and sharia law and all other kinds of bullshit.
>>683768851 I think you are the one who failed. Religious moron obviously refers to OP, I was in agreeance with the answer but stated that these questions weren't meant to be answered seriously because of the known fact that the religious person is unable to answer the questions from the start.
>>683768680 Ugh, I truly hate this debate. It's the same fucking book, just different versions. Unbelievers aren't welcome into the glorious Afterlife and thou shall not kill or take a life. People (fanatics) just don't get that.
why not eat bacon? christians are technically not allowed to eat shellfish or wear more than 2 cloths but they don't give a shit. so why would annyone let themselves have forbidden to eat a certain animal.
seems strange to me, but tbh every religion is strange in my eyes
>>683762215 why type of look do you use as your rock for understanding allahs will? do you recognize the koran as a literal accounts of allahs words, speaking to a culture that is far older than ours and therefore needed instructions that fit with the time, and instead of following the Koran you follow the Hadiths? if so, youre a pretty cool muslim
>>683769859 I'm a Christian? But I don't read the Bible with a mental capacity of that people of 2016. Help each other, be kind, trust in yourself and in the good in others, show mercy, forgive and love. It's quite simple to practice. Beside, God doesn't meddle in human business as such. Whatever is done onto us is our own fault, mostly. We're not divine beings. People blaming God for all the bad in the world are dumb beyond comprehension. And things happen. People die, but there's a place in the next life, for those who have shown kindness to others in this one. But again, it's really not hard to practice the words of God. But, yes, there's fanatics who take it too far and use it as a weapon to get what they want. And they'll most likely just burn in hell. Good riddance.
>>683773070 Probably same as the rest of us, half of what we hear about what 'happened' to you you deserved the other half we know was all made up. Hopefully, some day, 6million of you will be easybaked the fuck off this planet for good.
Also, don't quote the Koran in English, you have to use Arabic because Arabic can't be translated into other languages and the Koran was written in Arabic. So to understand the Koran you have to learn Arabic. But, because Arabic can't be translated into other languages GOOD FUCKING LUCK LEARNING IT!
>>683774118 There is no such things as a westernized muslim. If they are then they have abandoned the way of their prophet kek. So technically we'll just have to wait till they grow their numbers in the west and the rest will explain itself. I lived in lebanon overseas around these fucking savages and believe me they do not want peace at all. It's world wide islam or death after they gather their numbers up.
>Quran contains verses instructing muslims to kill infidels >Quran also preaches non violence >OP thinks this is totally fine to believe in >OP doesn't understand logic >OP probably values faith over logical thinking final point >There is no point in asking OP anything, he genuinely thinks his faith provides truth Peace be upon everyone buy him, OP Allah Snackbar
Had Mohammed been a decent man, there never would have been an Islam. Had he been wealthy and powerful enough to engage all his appetites to their fullest, there would also have been no Islam. Islam exists only because Mohammed wanted more than he had. And didn’t want to work for it. The campaign of mass murder and ethnic cleansing created a religion of terror, but it was done in the service of greed. Like so many tyrants, from Hitler to Kim Jong Il, Mohammed had a vastly inflated ego completely out of proportion to his actual abilities. And like them, he knew that cunning and ruthlessness would take him further, than righteousness and hard work ever would. He saw his opponents as weak because they were unwilling to do what he did. And that made them easy prey. Mohammed and his men did not win because they were stronger. Certainly not because they were more righteous. They won because they were willing to do anything to win. And those they fought weren’t.
>>683762215 I think Islam is an unfinished religion, that the Prophet felt a bit overwhelmed about addressing because he desperately wanted to elevate the general standard of spirituality so Badly.
And so its problematic because Islam needed a reformation even at the end of the Prophets life, and it is left a bit impossible, although here is the evidence for my claim:
The Prophet left no word about how to continue after his death (which is why there is a split basically as soon as he died); this fact alone must set up a lot a doubt about carrying Islam forward in the sense that it has no clearly defined authoritative "head". (which is why there are at least 2 versions of what the head-authority looks like today).
Second: In both Islamic traditions, there is a requirement that to be Muslim that cannot be met by every so called Muslim today, and it is blatantly ignored and covered over by all the man-made traditions that pretend to be Islam: There is no respect, or understanding or knowledge of the Injil, which can only be obtained by from a real Christian (good luck finding that in the sea of so-called Christianity).
I believe to have spiritual possession of the Injil, and would like to study Islam to see how these things come together, but I also believe the Islamic Traditions are too harsh and mostly oversimplified to accomplish this without branding me a heretic.
In the end, it remains a bastion of worldly-authority, and the depth of the Quaran cannot be read with the burden of its traditional interpretations of spiritual metaphor.
In light of the above, can you prove to me you are even a Muslim? (nevermind a Good one).
Muslims are the fucking worst. The ones who live in the west even more so. You have this wealth of knowledge within your grasp to free you of the bullshit you believe in. For fucks sake man it's staring you in the face. I went to a catholic school, got baptised, the lot. But i stopped believing in god around the same age as santa. Fucking hell, at least the natives of muslims countries have no other option that to follow some shitty old book, it just.. It just makes no sense to me.
>>683773351 The only acceptable context of the violence in the quran would be "do not commit", but it's the exact opposite. How much context do you require? Ten verses? 100? The whole quran? You can't dodge that forever.
>>683776600 >implying Islam wasn't just a political tool to unite the Arabs >implying this hasn't been the main reason for every (Abrahamic) religion to get big >implying the modern crisis within Islam isn't a direct result of the power vacuum left by Muhammad, creating feuding camps, who in turn burrow themselves into their personal version of conservatism, using the Hadith with more vigor than the Quran >implying Christianity is in essence any better and hasn't just been beaten into the modern age by an enlightened society
Honestly, if the Jews would drop the ethnicity thing, they'd be the best Abrahamics.
>>683778209 What does it mean that Christianity has "been beaten into the modern age by an enlightened society" ?
Beaten into an age... by the enlightened?
huh? please use full sentences to construct your thesis.
I am a special snowflake Christian, so I don't mind asking about this, because I don't identify with any doctrine the Church has espoused since when the early Churches were destroyed and displaced by the Roman conglomerate.
>>683775049 The only reason Christianity survived the way it did is because Christians ignore these lines. And because they can provide a simple and sound reasoning for it in the NT. All the while a majority of muslims will quote five hadith for every part of the "easy to understand" Quran quote, which will make interpreting it in a modern way near impossible.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Islam can't be a proper modern religion. In fact I'd even argue there are many part of the religion which give it such potential, like Ijtihad. But that doesn't change the fact that most Muslim schools of thought today are facing major societal issues and far too many Muslims get extremely defensive at the mere mention of reform.
>>683780138 The enlightenment has played a major role in the development of modern Christianity. (Lutheran) protestantism aside, the Vatican has been playing intellectual catch up in their "traditions" ever since secularism became a serious thing. Protestantism itself gave Christians a good opportunity to opt out, allthewhile. The only comparable movements in Islam would be Quranists. And they are negligable groups. The intellectual debate in Islam (at least among the people) is not about if their traditions are valid, but WHICH conservative traditions are more valid than others. Sunni and shia in particular. There are some positive developments, however. More recently there was the Marrakesh Declaration of 2015. But that was more a statement of academia, than actual change.
>>683762215 late joiner here, have not read the 234 above so ignore if already answered. The Koran is claimed to be true in all particulars, but it contains passages about the human reproductive cycle that are clearly not true. it repeats Greek and Indian medical knowledge of the time (sperm made in spine, no egg, foetus is a clot of blood, etc,) but is neither original or new to the time it was written, and now obsolete. How can this be accounted for?
>>683780990 I think that's a very superficial and sociological reading of the subjects involved. I'm into the fields of psychology and philosophy, which the KJV is an amazing source for, as evidence for my claim, just look at the substantial body of thought espoused by Carl Jung.
If you ever pursue the substance of the KJV against Jung's work, you would be astounded, although not in any historical/sociological framework that you seem particularly devoted to.
>>683781732 To be intellectually confused about wanting to make positive changes in a fucked up situation (i.e. Syria) is better than having 3. World conditions in a "modern" society. Americans can start complaining about the Middle-East crisis, once they stop creating monsters with their "the enemy of my enemy" fallacy, stop creating grievances and manage to construct a society where murder, starvation and death by preventable diseases aren't the norm anymore.
>>683782436 >superficial >I'm into psychology >argues with outdated psychoanalysis >this is somehow more valid than historical facts Just stop... You are trolling, right?
The historical factors of the developments in Christianity are just facts. And any theologist will tell you as much. And it really isn't difficult to read up on yourself. Just read up on Christian history from Dark ages to today. In Italy, Germany and France in particular.
Also you might want to know that psychoanalysis has nothing to do with psychology. It's just bad continental philosophy. If you'd ever bring that shit up among actual psychologists, philosophers and most theologists, you'd be laughed at.
>>683783355 your an idiot because: Jung doesn't involve pyschoanalysis, Jung methodology is called Analytical Pyschology.
Judging Jung according to a field which has been validly described as pre-Scientific by Chomsky is stupid (I'm not appealing to authority, I'm just not gonna substantiate obvious points), because Psychology only manages to stay pre-Scientific by its treatment of subject matter because it has obviously overlooked important features in favor of more appealing and unsuitable measurements.
History "facts"... lol, your whole paradigm is so simplistically-retarded. The reason you need to laugh, is so you can hide the tenants of intellectual ambiguity that allows you to continue making 'intellectual advancements' all premised on delusional thinking, but that's okay, cause you get to laugh at anyone who calls you delusional and ignore actually studying anything about the subject-matter of their challenges.
>>683784666 No, it doesn't. Jews are also people of scripture and therefore not by definition hellbound. Ever heard of the Charta of Medina? Mohammed lived and fought alongside Jews and Christians, who gave him asylum.
>>683785072 Analytical "psychology" is nothing more than psychologically applied psychoanalysis. Making unfalsifiable claims does not make your argument good, it makes it invalid or insignificant. (Especially if your only real counter-argument is that history is not an "exact science". I'm talking about broad societal movements and not factoids of individuals. So unless you are actually willing to take the position that there is a large conspiracy between historians of different countries, who are fabricating centuries of legacy, you best drop it.) Also none of this ties into the major political factors of Christianity and it's constant intellectual flip-flopping based on whatever society deems appropriate. The most recent Pope is just one on many examples.
If you want proper Christian-theological philosophy, you might want to start with Meister Eckhart and work you way forward, by the by. Because I most certainly will not apologize for dismissing criticism based on a school of thought notorious for circular reasoning and immunizing itself with Kafka-traps.
I am not dismissing intellectual developments within Christianity. I am simply stating that these developments take their basis in society, rather than an intrinsic reasoning. I can't help you if you are unable or unwilling to see how Christian thought is dominated by societal standards.
And now how about you provide some actual counter-arguments, instead of empty name-calling with words you picked up in philosophy 101. Because you are starting to sound like one of those annoying freshmen who just can't help to throw scepticism at literally everything.
>>683762595 You do realise how many times the Qu'ran has been changed by corrupt kings to gain more political power? Read a book before you craft an opinion, I mean an opinion you just stole from someone else.
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