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Is Alcoholics Anonymous a cult or no?
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Is Alcoholics Anonymous a cult or no?
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Yeah it is.
If someone says it's not, it's because they are in the cult.
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no.
A cult does not encourage folks to better themselves and repair their relationships.
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>>682702072
Actually I'm pretty sure every cult promises this
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>>682702072
Mine does
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>>682701584
AA offers what they claim to be a cure of an AMA recognized medical condition
AAs methods have not changed in almost 100 years
AA has never published treatment effectiveness
AA records from the late '70s and early '80s were leaked
those records show a 1 year treatment effectiveness to statistically significant difference from the control of a person deciding to quit drinking but seeking no formal help
the 5 year effectiveness is statistically worse than the same base control
the AMAs suggested treatment for alcoholism starts with a medically supervised detox period so that if a person suffers from DTs (a potentially fatal condition) they will receive immediate treatment, AA does not do this and their treatment for DTs is to tough it out
after this the AMA recommends psychoanalysis to determine and then treat the mental causes of alcoholism and to improve the patient's impulse control enabling the patient to refuse alcohol or even to drink in moderation
AA does not knowledge that an alcoholic can ever be cured, and that any consumption of alcohol is considered a complete relapse
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>>682703011
tl;dr AA may or may not be a cult, but they dgaf about helping people
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It's also Christian based, and although they deny it, it's all about giving yourself to their God, prayer and their "12 step" rituals (including a form of confession)

Look up "the orange papers" if you need more evidence that AA is pure bullshit
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>>682703011
I've a few friends in AA, one in the room currently. He said the point about DTs is in fact warned in the groups and detox is mentioned several times in the book, so that does not make sense.
One of my other friends was recommended AA by her shrink, so that does not appear to jibe as well.
Both of them have done it a while, small sample size, but of the folks I know a support group scenario seems to help
>>
AA gives kick backs to judges that mandate AA participation as part of the punishment for DUI convicts
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>>682701584
Every harmful cult keeps the faithful in check by teaching that you cannot survive without the cult. AA may be guilty on that count.
However, there are no membership dues or fees and the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. The courts sometimes order people to meetings but AA has never forced anybody to stay. AA doesn't want you there if you don't want to be there. Not a cult.
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>>682704433
>He said the point about DTs is in fact warned in the groups and detox is mentioned several times in the book
only because AA lost several lawsuits because of DT related deaths
in states w/o this judicial precedence AA still does not even give a warning about DTs

>One of my other friends was recommended AA by her shrink
my money is that the shrink believes your friend to be religious to begin with, referred him to benefit from the group therapy portion, and considers himself to still be the primary care provider for your friend's alcoholism
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>>682704105
Interesting, I realized I was an atheist while attending an AA. Never met a moment of resistance. Quit shit posting.
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idk guise, I go to AA ive been clean for 9 months, and they have a whole chapter in the book for atheists so you don't need to believe in god to be apart of AA, and as far as the twelve steps goes, they are a guideline for people who want to better themselves, the 12 steps are just a suggestion not mandatory
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>>682704515
>AA gives kick backs to judges that mandate AA
Dumbest comment all day.
AA groups delist and go underground so that probates don't fuck up good meetings.
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>>682705154
Quit shit posting or provide some links. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
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I don't know of anyone who has recovered from alcoholism or addiction without AA.
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>>682704515
what would they possibly get out of that?
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>>682704105
my Jewish shrink talked me into going. 8 sober years ago. There are other ways to quit - this worked for me. (atheist)
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Alcoholic here, started a thread yesterday about having the DT exam on Friday then starting AA afterward. Based upon yesterday's thread I understand that AA is primarily junkies and you feel a lot better just because you're not as bad off.

5 beers in and halfway through a 750ml bottle of vodka, it's a nice Wednesday.

Tits to bump
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31 years of uninterrupted sobriety
Attended lots of meetings the first 5 years, occasional meetings the next 10 years. No meetings for almost 15 years. Busy with kids and career.
A few meetings year currently because I enjoy the fellowship. Like talking to younger people.
AA is not for everybody. There are other ways to get clean. Not a cult. Not a religious program unless you make it one.
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>>682703011
>AA offers...a cure
>an alcoholic can (n)ever be cured

also, 100 year old cookie cutter solutions seem fantastic and pro-science...now let me hop in my steam powered car and go to the drug store for a fountain soda and morphine cough syrup
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doctors opinon
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>>682701584
Eh, I've been in and out of the rooms for a while and I'd say no.

The main tenets are as follows

Trust God(if you care to have one, otherwise there are agnostic/athiest subgroups with their own steps)

Clean house

Help others(alcoholic or otherwise. IMO)

If that sounds like a cult then I guess. But I don't believe it is.
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>>682707430
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>>682707297
How much/often were you drinking before AA?
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>>682707206
Good for you sport. You're not ready. You can't schedule your bottom. When you hit it you'll know.
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>>682706561
$$$$
the AA groups that do this require a treatment fee
they may not be official AA
but they do follow verbatim AAs system

>>682706222
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=alcoholics+anonymous+judge+kickbacks
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=alcoholics+anonymous+treatment+failure
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>>682707557
this
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>>682703011
It is a complete relapse. It's the equivalent of a schizo going off their meds.
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>>682707342
>>AA offers...a cure
sorry, meant treatment not cure
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>>682707522
>How much/often were you drinking before AA?
I was drinking daily from age 15. Heavy drug use as a teen. Two DUI and multiple drunk and disorderly arrest by age 24.
At age 24, I killed my younger brother when I rolled a car with a BAC of .30
Got sober behind bars.
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>>682707747
if alcoholism is that serious why doesn't AA publish so that the AMA (the government recognized medical authority) changes it recommended treatment to AA's?
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>>682708114
Because they don't affiliate with any governmental bodies, corporations, or other sects, religious groups, or the subsequent denominations. Their main stated focus is to help people get and stay sober. If shrinks or other peeps in the medical field want to study people in AA then it has to be voluntary on the part of the member.
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>>682707653
Try reading the article next time nignog. AA doesn't run a single treatment center or sober living center anywhere in the world.
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>>682708114
Also what I find funny about people bringing up the internal study AA did 30 yrs ago is that in that study they never asked any of the participants if they had completed the 12 steps
Only when they started attending AA
And when their last drink was.
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>>682708560
It's a program of attraction not promotion. The 12 traditions of AA are probably more important than the 12 steps when it comes to understanding what AA is or is not.
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>>682708560
this
>>
Difference between an alcoholic and drug addict?
An alcoholic will steal you wallet
A drug addict will steal your wallet and help you look for it
>I used to attend NA meetings just for the pussy.
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>>682708541
>Their main stated focus is to help people get and stay sober.
wouldn't that be better served by convincing all doctors in the US (or even the world) to use the 12 step program which they claim is superior?

>If shrinks or other peeps in the medical field want to study people in AA then it has to be voluntary on the part of the member.
except that AA does not ask their member to participate in clinical studies or allow person conducting such studies to ask at AA meetings or even post a flyer asking for voulenteers
there have been studies done on 12 step treatment, but because of ethics the volunteers are not given the 12 step treatment and are determined to have participated by self disclosure
and AA is the only group that does not report success rate of treatment
all other medical fields are required to report their success rate to the AMA so that the treatment can be evaluated for safety and improved
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>>682710466
You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what AA is.
AA has no control over treatment centers or judges. None.
AA is not a treatment provider. AA is not political or religious. It takes no stance on outside affairs. It makes no claims as to having a cure - although I can understand where people get that impression. It is a group of men and women help each other to get sober.
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>>682707557
Didn't schedule the bottom, sport. Docs said to drink when I feel I need to so I can avoid a potentially life threatening seizure. Friday was the earliest appointment.
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>>682708105
Jesus.
If serious I'm sorry man. That's rough. Good for you for what you've done since tho
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>>682711258
>It is a group of men and women help each other to get sober.
except they do not
1 year success rate from the little data available says AA is no better than going it alone
5 year success rate is worse than going it alone
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>>682701584
I got my life back through AA. Most organized religions are far more of a cult.
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i was in NA so i have some personal expirence. its kinda a cult, u basically end up merging all aspects of ur lfe with the program but its hard dto fault them for his; u gotta understand that when ur join u suck so hard at running ur life that us junkies basically need someone to run it so we dont end up using drugs
however that is almost the definition of a cult. a religious organization that permeates and controls all aspects of ur life. however as i said most junkies need that because before they sucked dick at running their life and their entire existence was devoted to scoring drugs. also they do claim to be a spiritual organization not a religious one but most NA/AA groups revolve around god as their higher power
lol my higher power was a potatoe; they werent to happy with that but i made the argument that a potato plant can feed a family and provide nutrition with only soil, sun and water powering it. i cant therefore the potato was more powerful; haha they were pissed
however i must confess i hate NA/AA, its all or nothing with them and they set u up to where you think if u have one drink/hit u might as well as say fuck it and do every horrible thing in the book. plus they treat weed like the devil but nothing was better at helping me overcome my cravings for heroin than weed
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>>682704515
Source?
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>>682711531
Those are some awfully big conclusions to draw from an extremely limited data sets. And I know I huge community of people who do precisely what I claimed, help each other to stay sober. Many of them were deep end hopeless alcoholics now they have long term sobriety - they attribute there sobriety to the fellowship of AA. Could they have done it a different way. Maybe. Who knows? You sure as fuck don't. What matters is that it's what they believe.
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>>682712040
fucking cont.
look they will cure u of your addiction, i give them that amount of credit. however you sacrifice and remake every aspect of your life in their image. some people need this to get clean but some dont; its a hard call to make
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>>682710466
Check out "Language of the Heart" it has all of Bill W's writings in the Grapevine and gives some good insight on how and why the traditions came to be. Attraction, not promotion. There are public information committees and cpc (cooperation with professionals committee) to help put the resources out there for those who want it. AA is not the only recovery program out there, some people find better luck with other avenues. It's kept me sober over 2 years, I couldn't stay sober and nearly killed myself (had to be resuscitated) before coming in.
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>>682712111
>Source?
>>682707653
>http://lmgtfy.com/?q=alcoholics+anonymous+judge+kickbacks

>>682712521
that is why AA needs to be facilitating with studies of their method
I'm not saying the organisations need to give the data
but they do need to stop telling those they are "treating" to not participate in the studies and give the people performing the studies better access to the members
if 12 stepping works, great, prove it
if not, then it should not be put forward before more effective forms of treatment
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>>682712794
Look at the people who've been in the room for a year. Compare them to the people at the first meeting. NA's not such a hardship. The one's who've hung around for a year look better, smell better, and act better.
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>>682712040
>>682712794
forgot my info; 23 yo heroin addict. starting using ocs (ocycontin) and selling em at age 15. moved on to selling and then using heroin. at 20 went to the methadone clininc for 3 years until i quit several months ago
quiting methadone was the hardest thing ive ever done/expirenced
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>>682713116
AA doesn't have sober living facilities, rehabs or anything of the like. That's not AA supplying the kickback, it's a third party. AA members will bring meetings into rehab facilities but they don't provide or get any type of compensation.
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Can't say as far as AA goes but I used heroin everyday for 3 years straight. I'm on day 62 without any heroin, no meetings or anything like that, just quit cold turkey. I still drink almost everyday but not to excess. Point I'm trying to make is if you want to stay clean you will, if you're not ready you won't.
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>>682712040
this is my problem with AA. I don't believe in God and I know that failure may happen from time to time
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>>682713116
>stop telling those they are "treating" to not participate in the studies
Sorry, never happened. AA has no enforcement mechanism. No ethics committee. No one telling patents they can or can't do anything. None. Again, you misunderstand what AA is and isn't. Your beef is with treatment providers that claim to be 12 step based. AA has no relationship to them.
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>>682713792
I sponsor girls who don't believe in God and they do stay sober. All you need is a higher power and it can't be you. They have something greater than themselves that they find trust or reliance in.
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>>682714029

Right. Basically something made up and "magical"
kinda like "God".
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>>682714029
>something greater than themselves
What is it?
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>>682703011
AA , help my dad to stop drinking. He has not been drinking for 25 years . It was effective for a heavy drinker like my dad , it can be for anyone
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>>682701584
arguable all collective gatherings especially if they are not public are a cult.equilibrium
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>>682713226
no ur right, the program works; i would never say it dosent but it works vbecause u sacrifice your old self. this isnt a bad vthing and i wud never paint it as such necause our old identities/lives were terrible addcts
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>>682714029
So quit using my religion's prayer during your meetings. That's the height of hypocrisy
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>>682713116
There are no absolutes to the program, just suggestions. Steps, sponsorship, service and meetings and strongly suggested- not everyone does them, people will do them in different proportions and in different time frames. People come in with a desire to stop drinking, but have completely different drinking histories. And, it's an anonymous program with no outside affiliations. How would you propose a study be done?
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Usually I stick out of this, but I have been sober about 4.5 years. I went to AA and participated in all the b.s. of the service structure for the first 3, but have been petering out for the last 1 and a half. I have always thought AA to be a cult, and so I after achieving some success in life, I left. I met some cool people that I still keep in contact with, but people seldom ask me about going to meetings because they know why I left.
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>>682713840
>>682713753
AA is so loosely organized that using AAs system is the same as being AA
and I'm not arguing so much against the organisation as against the method they promote
all medically legitimate treatment has abandoned the 12 step program except for using the group therapy aspect of it
doctors (medical or psychiatric) that to refer patients to 12 step programs do not require that they complete the 12 steps, only that they attend the meetings
the system is broken
and there are people using that broken system to get the courts to extort people to pay for their services
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They're pretty clear that the reason you're there is that you have a problem and that you can't keep hanging out with your drinking buddies or keep alcohol in your life.

People HATE to be told that they suck, but you can't magically fix being irresponsible with alcohol. The god shit is in there because it's the only thing some people can imagine that's more important than themselves and it was written by people who went to church.
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>>682713792
"God" can literally be anything greater than yourself. I am an atheistfag so the concept of "God" scared me at first as well. This is not a religious group no matter what anyone tells you.
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>>682714303
One girl believes in the energy of the universe, for the other it's nature. It's working for them. I respect and encourage their right to have a higher power of their understanding, as long as it works for them.
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>>682715057
It may have been written in a time when religion was the basis, but the reality of the program today is vastly different. Do not scare someone away from the help they need because you are an ignorant fuck.
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>>682714742
There are athiest and agnostic groups of AA. My homegroup uses the serenity prayer.
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it's aushchqwiz for gurn aout fortj yeh olf
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>>682701584
I had to attend AA for a year. All the old timers that went to it said they hadn't had a drink in twenty years. I would occasionaly smell booze on them or see them buying. Are you an alcoholic?
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In AA from age 20 to 30, went to school in a sober environment, etc. Not really a cult but certainly enforces the psychological idea of an "in-group", so you are either in or you are totally "out" there is no real in-between. Have been out of AA/recovery for 5 years now. Drink once or twice a week, not to excess, life is cool. Lost many friends when I told them I thought I had issues due to being raised by a war vet father, bi-polar mother, and wasn't necessarily alcoholic.

A free social program that only asks you to attempt their way of life is not as dogmatic as something life being in scientology or some shit. It is generally a good thing, has good intentions, but suffers from misdiagnosing. Shit doth happen.
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>>682715645
Where do they NOT use the serenity prayer???
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>>682701584
No it is not a cult at all. It is just something that people created when they realized 75 percent of this country drinks booze 9 days a week.
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Yeppers. Whatever the fuck works for ya. AA, most of the time made me very stressed, and anxious. Very rigid with the "no crosstalk". People over-serious when you don't comply with the rules. "God" referenced in most of the 12-steps. I got it, for some, it's literally life or death that they quit. Had the element of a "if we don't like you, you're excluded". I lost the taste for alcohol. Use xanax as need be.
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>>682714921
It's for people who want it, not who need it. Being referred doesn't mean somebody necessarily wants to stay sober. Sometimes the exposure helps and somebody will come back when they're ready. Still, there are plenty of other options out there. I had a psychiatrist suggest AA 5 years before I got sober I told her to fuck off and never went back. I was in pain but I wasn't willing to get or stay sober.
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>>682716131
Xanax has the same chemical pathway in the brain as alcohol so you didn't lose the taste, faggot. You replaced it with its' analogue.
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>>682715645
Some use the "Our Father" but I would imagine athiest/agnostic groups use neither.
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>>682716590

gaba....yes I know FAGGOT....bait taste good?
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>>682716131
wat
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>>682716559
>It's for people who want it, not who need it.
>appendectomies are for people who want it, not who need it
>mastectomies are for people who want it, not who need it
>tonsillectomies are for people who want it, not who need it
>antibiotics are for people who want it, not who need it
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>>682701584
Sober AA fag here. AA helped me be sober for the past 287 days. Whether it is a cult or not is irrelevant to me but I would say its not. They don't encourage you to cut off relationships or force any particular god onto you. Some groups might but that's because the structure of AA prevents rigidity. It's just a group of people working towards sobriety. I've found a lot of very spiritually healthy people and I have to say it completely changed my life. I was a resentful drunk selfish motherfucker my whole life. Or high on whatever. Now I'm actually able to change things in my life I don't like.
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>>682705154
False. The AA big book has ALWAYS had the chapter called, "THE DOCTORS OPINION" written by late dr silkworth. That is the first chapter and he specifically says that medical detox is necessary in most cases. Next lie?
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Man, some people are super fucked though; can't stop drinking for fuck all. Worked at a halfway house for a year or so in college. Lots of dudes in their 50-60s who have been in/out of recovery for years. Divorce, bankruptcy, suicide, and insanity are all common things. Is it better to have a unproven cult providing an avenue of recovery for even a small percent of people? Depends on your buy in to Darwinism. Apoclypse will rise motherfuckers.
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>>682703011
They don't offer a cure, they offer a way to manage life without drinking/using. They don't guarantee any sobriety in someone who doesn't want to get sober; they really have to want it.

That being said, I'm in it (3 1/2 years sober off heroin and benzos), and I would consider it to be a cult. I don't really care if it's cult-like, I just want to be able to manage life without picking up again, and it does help if you really do the program. It is definitely not for everyone, but it works wonders for people who are willing to really do it.

Also, I don't know where the fuck you got that info about the DT thing, but I can assure you that it's either false or not enforced at all. I know plenty of people who went through actual medical treatment for DT and are in the program. My sponsor has actually driven people to detox clinics.
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>>682717412
Congrats man hope to get there some day. Keep it up so i know it's possible.
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>>682717385
All of the things you list require the patient to seek treatment, and comply with care/aftercare. Somebody may need antibiotics, receive them but not want them and not take them. Even more prevalent with mental illness. You need help, but don't think it's that bad so you don't seek it out or comply with treatment.
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Bumpin with tits
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NA fag reporting in, clean & partially serine for... 21months, 3days.

Longest I managed since 14 before going into Treatment and NA was 24hours.
I've now been clean over a year... a miracle if you've been where I've been and done the things I've done.

My life, health, veins are fucked - but I lived through it and am now giving back... no it's not a cult, yes, some people do make it feel like one - but screw them, ignore those and concentrate on your own recovery. This model works, Just For Today. <>
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>>682718369
Yeah that's a big problem, people just not understanding it. The wife didn't understand the cravings until she read the big book
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>>682718520
Drug(s) of choice anon?
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>>682717924
never thought i would hear this words from /b/ but thank you. it's not that bad tbh it's much better on this side. consistently making spiritually progress becomes difficult.

my advice- when i just started i prayed every morning and the first thought on my mind was "i'm an alcoholic and i can't drink today". i was more into pot but alcohol is a place-holder word for me. good luck to you.
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>>682717901
This. I've taken 12 step calls to hospitals to detox myself. I could give two shits if it's cult. My quality of life is the best it's ever been. I have great relationships (and not just AA/sober people, my family and old friends trust me and want to be around me again), I'm making more money than I ever have, doing well in my career and my health has completely improved. If you are concerned that it's a cult, don't go.
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>>682701584
They are Agnostic didn`t read the book today, but they are right on the alcohol stuff, not ever gone once but the book is pretty small and interesting.
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>>682704105
They never said nothing about god because they're not religious. You dont know nothing about AA.
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>>682701584
I don't know, but from a friend of mine, I have heard that Narcotics Anonymous is a much superior support group, for junkies and alcoholics alike, and their chapters do not try and put religion into the picture at ALL

He said that some alcoholics attend NA and get results, addiction is addiction and you will find support there.
>>
Y
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>>682718520
Congrats man. 861 days today for me. It is a complete miracle.
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>>682705488
didn`t knew that 9 months sober good for you, 3 days without a drink and I already dumber forgetting stuff and anxiety.
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>>682701584
Yes. It's a New Age cult. It's incompatible with Abrahamic religions in particular.
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>>682719456
see what I mean ? I was gonna type feel* and*
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>>682719209
I know addicts in AA as well. I've been to DAA and CA. It's about finding the fellowship for you, and doing the work. I'm in AA myself (alcoholic with a drug history) and it was key for me to find the meetings that work for me. My ex is in NA, last I heard he was clean and doing well.
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>>682707557
This : (
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>>682718807
I was a heroin addict for 5years (IV 4years), ketamine addict on and off for about 4years, nitrous addict for about a year, drank heavily on and off (Between other drugs) since 13 and I smoked weed daily for about 8years.

I've also used:
Crack, Cocaine, Methdone, Methadrone, MDMA, MDA, aMT, DMT, 5MeO-DMT, 5MeO-DOLT, 5MeO-DALT, PMA/PMMA, 5APB, 6APB, 4Ho-MIPT, MXE, Speed, Bass, Changa, LSD, LSA, shrooms, ... various pharms...

Basically everything I could find to change the way I felt... now I use everything else: Buying stuff, girls, sex, money, self-harm, porn, food (lack or excess)... yeah... everything else. But now I have a program that can help me combat my other manifestations as they pop-up.
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>>682720249
wow you are a total fucking faggot
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>>682720249
Oh, I forgot the 2C family:
2CB, 2CE, 2CI, 2CP, 25i-NBome, 25c-NBome, 25e-NBome.

And I'm sure I've missed out lots of others...
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>>682720662
No, I'm an addict. But thanks for joining in.
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>>682712040
Are U still on drugs/alcohol?
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>>682712040
This is the best example of a brain that has been permanently fried on drugs that has ever been written in the english language. Bravo, you random junkie.
>>
I've been before and back when I was younger, I looked at it as a cult.
It's meant to be based on spirituality, but it was originally Christian based.
I've been in recovery from weed and alcohol for 9 months now and I can honestly say it's given me a different perspective on life.
When they talk about a higher power, it's something that guides you.
I think you just have to get to the point where you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, so you truly want to make a change.
AA helped make other anonymous groups possible like NA, CA, CMA, DRA and so on.
The main keys they focus on are:
Fellowship, service work, getting a sponsor, working the steps, and to have some type of spiritual awakening. And the motto they follow is that we can only keep what we have by giving it away (sobriety/recovery).
It's completely open to the public. Doesn't cost you a penny.
Hope that helps for people who want to get into recovery.
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