Opinions on communism?
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
Opinions on communism?
the best
>>675854526
It is morally wrong.
>>675854526
Utter retardation wrapped up in one politico-economic system. Responsible for 100 million deaths in the last century alone.
>>675854526
Made for beings without an ego.
>>675854947
You stupid fucking idiot, it's not the ideology that caused 70+ million deaths in the 20th century, it was Mao and Stalin being complete retards
>>675854526
the only ok form of communism is anarcho-communism which is decentrilsed and anit-bureaucratic. Fuck Stalin.
>>675854799
How
>>675854799
How?
>>675854526
A good idea on paper, but utterly useless in practice.
Human nature itself is incompatible with its core principles.
In short, it don't work.
a potentialy good idea fucked up by greedy psychopath on their plan to gain more power
>>675855254
We'd need a cultural shift that wont happen any time soon, its a nice idea though
We will use computers to decentralize our government and businesses and achieve something like communism.
It was created by the jews to see if it would easier to control people.
Therefore it should be abolished from the world along with socialism.
>>675855254
>Human nature
Gold star for you little clone.
>>675855669
wat ?
>>675855669
Others will say that Capitalism was "invented" by the jews, get lost you fucking retard.
Better than capitalism, but worse than socialism.
I say a great idea but utterly impossible to reasonably do right now. In the future though, when most people will get their jobs replaced by bots, it might be the only economic choice.
>>675854526
Has never been tried.
>>675855881
>>675855923
Look up the leaders of the russian revolution and look at their religion.
Way too complicated. Just like most other systems out there. All those non transparent systems are where corruption and the hunger for power comes from to begin with. People just need to agree on a few simple rules and live according to them. Something like "No Killing" and "Be respectful towards others". Then Let society form itself without all those artificial rules and subsystems that won't work anyway in most cases.
Kinda like working on paper but not in real life. Fuck communism. Fuck former USSR
>>675856216
they were athiests you fucking idiot
>>675856028
well socialism and communism theoricaly only difer by there path socialist want the workers to vote for them communist want them to go on a revolution but the final conclusion who is about the end of private property and the collectivisation of production machine is the same on both ideology.
>>675856525
Ah I dun fucked up
>Muh retard athiest kek
Fuck off I know its atheist
>>675856216
And?
Your way of thinking is way to easy pal
Those are your only evidences?
inb4 before idiots who think the USSR or China are communist states
>>675854526
better dead then red
>>675854526
Fucking based. The only chance we have at a good future.
>>675856815
/thread
>>675856216
only Trotsky was jewish and Marx and Engel where atheist, the official USSR position about god was that he doesn't exist AND Staline persecuted the jewish
I share Cromwell's logic, it will never work, because it requires all men to be equal and even if men may be equal in paycheck, workhours and the car they drive, they shall always envy another mans wife, children, life etc..
>>675854526
it doesn't work
>>675856525
Leon Trotsky jewish farmer.
Lev Kamenev from a Russian jewish family.
Grigory Zinoviev Jewish heritage
The list keeps going, open your eyes lad, they tried to do the same thing in germany with the civil war, and realized they couldn't do it by force so they had to do it in the sneaky piece of shit jew way by controlling media and lawyers and politicians. But there was one man who stood up against them and silenced them for a while at least.
>>675857400
Believe what you want and be happy with it.
>>675857400
this guys is the only one who knows whats up
>>675854526
the only way the world will stop ruining itself.
>>675855254
we actually haven't had the opportunity to test it yet.
communism works only as a whole. the whole world has to be communistic or it would be swallowed by the selfish beast that is capitalism.
it doesn't work, i agree. yet.
>>675856336
pretty much this. solidarity as the highest social and moral value.
>>675856446
>former USSR
>communism
choose one. just because something labels itself "communist" doesn't mean it is.
just like national socialism wasn't socialistic, it simply sounded nice.
>>675856028
>political system that brought you mostly everything to life
>worse than a political system that killed people
>>675856760
>>675856960
>>675856525
>2016
>still living in la la land
I know it's hard to believe something like that because you have had it drummed into your heads your entire life that it is wrong, but it's time to wake up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssCkc8t9sho
>>675856875
>communism
>based
choose one
>>675854526
It's only a little gayer than capitalism. Neither of these represent the end of history. Direct democracy has a possibility in the form of electronic democracy, but totalitarianism seems more likely, which would open up chances for Libertarianism to gain a foothold.
>real Libertarianism won't be established through a representative republic's voting system, but through technological advancement after a failed establishment of some sort of technological totalitarian system
>e-democracy being used to install a cybernetic totalitarian government, then subverted by Libertarians and dismantled
Capitalism and Communism are archaic and won't last another 2 centuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_history
>>675857661
>communism will make the world stop ruining itself
you're delusional
>>675857758
hi I'm superfaggot and I'll explain you the world through a 3 FUCK*NG hour complotist youtube video
>>675855254
Capitalism doesn't work either, to be more precise I think Humans doesn't work.
>>675858066
nice argument. care to elaborate?
for edgy autistic 12 year olds who don't understand how the real world works
>>675857758
Spare me with your fucked up way of thinking, just because life isn't like you expected it to be it doesn'T automatically mean the Jews are the ones to blame.
>2016
>still believing shit that was cool in the 20th Century
>>675854526
It's unfair. Even worse: It's unfair while not even creating hope to achieve something. It's a system that makes progress stop.
>>675858361
Interesting point of view, thanks for that!
>>675854526
Thoroughly anti-communist.
>>675858129
I know it's really long, but if you ever get the time watch it, or even just watch bits of it it's really worth it.
>>675858341
I'm not saying the jews are at fault for EVERYTHING in the world, i said they created communism. Stop putting words in my mouth, i'm not some little 15 year old pot smoker who thinks hes king shit cause he went on the internet. Just watch the video if you ever get the chance, i know it's hard to believe something as "Politicly incorrect" as this. Just remember history is written by the victor, imagine if America won in Vietnam, the Vietcong would have been crucified as the shittiest humans alive.
Communism is the best
apparently whether you implement communism.. there's no competition, you either live off the backs of others or others do of you, without incentive to have to do shit for anybody.. look at cuba, still set in 50's. Also in a communistic society, you have no rights over your own property, the government own you, who wants that? capitalism is clearly where the progression is at.
>>675858361
i disagree.
human curiosity doesn't stop just because you don't get money for it anymore.
actually, most of societies technological and scientific achievements are not that well paid. it was always human nature to answer questions and break boundaries.
and it will always be the most driving factor of humanity.
>>675858277
if you don't live in bernie's land
>communism kills people
>stops progress in making communities better
>doesn't unify the people
may i need to say more?
>>675854526
Closed off ideology hopelessly stuck in the past. Keeps on thinking the revolution is just around the corner when in fact every communist has been thinking that since marx. Just like everyone has believed their generation would be the one when Jesus comes back.
>>675855202
>>675855239
Because individuals have rights, and there are things which the state and its officials may not do, without violating these rights. Either read some Nozick or buy a one-way ticket to Siberia, you God damn communists.
Responsible for the rise of the regressive Left in universities and media we see today.
>>675858796
What is the video about?
I bet there are some phrases like Hitler fought the evil jews and that he was right about all.
>>675858796
cant't watch it blocked in my country and even if I told you the jew weren't in control of the USSR they even suffered from it stop trying to make the jew responsive for everything that gone wrong in this world
Humans aren't naturally equal
One greedy individual ruins the chain
It won't work unless the whole population is behind it, and since it never will be the government will have to force it upon the population. this means no incentive to work, stunted growth, and a miserable population.
>hurdur don't blame russia stalin wasn't a true communist
no, but he was a clever narcissist who exploited communism's achilles heel: unchecked government power
>>675854526
Communism sucks, social democracy is the way to go.
I'll take my government without authoritarianism.
>>675854526
Pure Marxism is an interesting idea. I think it's very wise that at least a few people out there are considering alternatives to replace the current, unsustainable form of capitalism the world is engaged with. Marx's manifesto begins with him on a diatribe against capitalism in which he forecasts its future. And the thing is, it reads like a prophecy. He was right about us. He foresaw everything and there are a few promises yet unfulfilled. That said, I think one of the best summations of Marxism ever put forth was, paraphrased: YOu cannot blame Marx for the failure of communism because pure Marxism was never tried, but pure Marxism was never tried because it did not include tenets sufficient to protect itself from near instant perversion by power hungry assholes like Lenin.
Communism as it currently exists is certainly a dead end road. But something does need to replace capitalism. Northern Europe has made strides with democratic socialism and shown the world that a more humanist variety of capitalism can have its successes though I'd stop short of calling them perfect. We all see the disaster France made of the idea, they're as big a mess as the US is.
in theory it sounds great, In practice it is a disaster and its probably the cause of the annoying hipsters going to every protest imaginable in privileged countries now
>>675855154
you dense fucking mongoloid the structure of communist government is what allowed them to gain such unopposed control
humanity is driven by envy... under communism, envy motivates ppl to pull down those who have more, and under capitalism, envy motivates ppl to raise to the level of the rich.
the hate of inequality comes from christianity, communism is its extreme position.
>>675860503
Greed is the lubricant which ensures that human civilization continues to flourish. Capitalism = love <3
>>675854526
Has never been done.
>>675861236
That's because on a national scale it's impossible.
>>675858920
Humans are shit. Curiosity is a result of wealth and wealth can't be achieved with communism.
>>675858855
no, actually REAL communism won't have a government.
there would be no institutionalized power that controls your life.
communism requires some pretty advanced technology to actually work.
i'll tell you my theory:
society has to abolish capitalism, worldwide or it doesn't work.
all effort has to go to enabling every person in the world to at least fulfill their basic needs, i.e. food, clean water, sheltering.
since we already produce more than enough food to feed the world, this won't be a big problem.
>first problem: who builds the houses, who ships the food, who plants it, who grows it, etc.?
we have to find a way to build autonomous machines that require little maintenance. that is already done in most cases.
since most of humanity's effort is concentrated on that issue, the lacking nations (mostly africa i suppose) will catch up soon.
when people have a safe home and enough to eat, they will stop migrating to a better place. they won't need to go somewhere else, because somewhere else is the same as "home".
meanwhile, the rest of humanity has to work on a language that's established world wide. it has to be easy to learn and mostly functional, not romantic. everybody is obliged to learn the language.
when this is done, the focus should be set on education. experts on each subject should train interested people through world wide conferences that are broadcast on channels and visible by everyone if they wish to.
young people go to school (another topic i'll tackle later).
cont.
capitalism is also flawed, given that there's the 1% and the ones below that wish to become, and will step over others to get there, or get that new car they always wanted just because they feel their old one is inferior, is this not the root cause of our problems where the standard is constantly set higher and some people become obsolete?, then they want more. Humans are in no way perfect, how can such a system be made to go around this trait, it's humanly not possible, no way we can be conditioned completely.
>>675861787
Wouldn't our dependence on machines control our lives, meaning those who can made\fix them would become the new "institutionalized power"?
>>675854526
It's nice in theory but when implemented just doesn't fucking work. Mostly because people are naturally assholes who want to fuck each other over to be on top. Long live capitalism!
>>675854526
Looks alright on paper. But doesn't work In the real world.
>>675854526
Socialism is the only mode of production that offers humanity a real future. The cycle of "crony" capitalism and social democracy can only end with civilization collapsing when it can no longer wastefully consume massive quantities of natural resources. Capitalism was a necessary step in our development, but after industrialization we should have democratized our economic substructure - we have lingered in this phase of our history for far too long. Our only hope is that the people of the world achieve class consciousness, overthrow the global economic ruling class, and take control of capital for the purpose of providing for the material needs of all with the aim of global self-actualization and planning our way to a better future.
>>675857400
Everyone was jewish at the time.
>>675859831
>communist
>government
>>675861787
>second problem: laws, punishment of crime, etc.
law enforcement has to be abolished. jails are closed.
people who committed crimes like theft, drug distribution, burglary or anything else with no human victim are to be released.
communes vote on the fate of the people who committed crimes against human people. death penalty is not an option as is torture or anything harmful to the person. exile is probably the hardest sanction, since it cuts the person from community's recourses.
people like rapists or murderers have to be marked, so it is visible for everyone they encounter. the mark (like a necklace or whatever) also triggers shocks that render the person immobile when they try to attack another human or animal.
criminals can work for the community to regain their social status, but depending on how severe their crime was, they might expel the person forever.
cont.
>>675862612
Seriously, these threads are dedicated to Americans demonstrating their complete ignorance of political systems.
>I believe American propaganda!
>no no, I believe American propaganda MORE
>no way, nobody believes American propaganda more than me
failure
>>675862232
people this stupid actually exist.
>>675863236
Are you actually suggesting that anyone who doesn't like Communism is brainwashed?
>>675863452
>have mind like closed room with no windows
>hear description of ideas from outside
>that's stupid - I don't see any of that in my little room
Congratulations, you're the driftwood of history. Hope someone pulls you out of the river soon because your capitalist world is about to tumble down the waterfall.
>>675864243
No, but I am suggesting that people who criticize ideas without understanding them based on a false conception provided by the very class which benefits from this propaganda have certainly been brainwashed, or whatever you want to call an emotional, uncritical investment in the current power structure.
>>675862139
good point, but what do these people have to gain? everything they need is provided for, they lack nothing. society will see them as "keepers" and they are highly appreciated for working that way.
if corruption does seem to appear, see >>675863181 for solutions.
also the work on maintenance can be on a rotation, so no person works in that field for longer than a set time.
>>675863181
>third problem: selfish people and corruption.
it's naive to assume nobody will try to take control over a fragile system that's based on solidarity. there will be downsides (i'll come to that later) that go along with this system and not everyone is ready to accept a maybe less luxurious life than they had before.
so how do we "reprogram" people who think only of themselves first? we don't. it's a problem i don't know how to fix. the only hope i have is that since there is no special luxury to gain, people will stop defining themselves through their acquired wealth after about 2 generations.
self-sacrifice has to become the new "wealth". social status comes through doing things people don't like to do, like physically hard or humiliating work.
in maybe 100 years these sectors will be the most romanticized, because they are what defines your social status.
cont.
Good in theory but as per usual human beings fuck it up
>>675854526
>>675864243
that's not even close to what he said.
>>675863181
communism sounds good but rather wouldn't progression(given say you're the only country exercising it) slow down, even if the people feel liberated? .. i understand the standard would be lower for people and would not be pushed and expected as such, how would said system compel anybody to work? it wouldn't, or at least it would be a failed project and humans would not progress as fast as if our natural traits were put in to use that allow us to climb the pyramid/trapezoid and fuck everybody else over, that's where the real progression is! survival of the fittest! no effort = no respected place in society = no contribution = no survival.
>>675854526
It's why eastern europe is 20 years behind
>>675859335
/thread commie scum
>>675854526
Communism is forced on people, that's why it's wrong. And through that, the only way you can force communism on people is through violence, etc.
If you're socialist, however, and you get your ideologies democratically, it is probably because it's what people want, and it will be a gradual shift with opportunities to no longer be under socialist rule.
>>675858920
It does when you are starving to death. Communism bases itself on a belief that we are in a post scarcity economy and that simply isn't true.
>>675864952
which is why I asked, and he clarified. I was under the assumption that he thought anyone who criticized his ideology just "didn't get it", which brainwashed is often used as a euphemism for.
>>675864793
just somehow educate them to believe that just thinking of themselves is bad.
>>675854526
it kills more than people
>>675859335
I think marxism is retarded, but you are conflating it with authoritarianism, both of which stalinism and most manifestations of communism are, but your logic is flawed.
All gold shines =/= everything that shines is gold.
>>675858920
If people got nothing out of being "curious" etc. Then they wouldn't do just that.. nothing. Getting rewarded just drives people to do things. If someone could flip burgers at mcdonalds or choose to be a engineer or architect for the same thing, why wouldn't they choose the easier thing? Unless, of course, you FORCE people or intimidate people to do it, and i know i wouldn't want to live under a government like that. It doesn't work.
>>675865753
But the real point wasn't "brainwashing" - it's that none of you Americans ever take the time to actually learn what socialism and communism are before screaming "USA #1" like trained parrots. Even Bernie Sanders' "democratic socialists" have no fucking clue what socialism means.
>>675866442
Exactly gumans are "lazy" by nature. I put lazy in quotes because it just means in this context that we will always choose the path of less resistance to get what we need
>>675854526
Lazy people steal from working people and call it justice
>>675864793
>fourth problem: work and apathy
this is the argument most capitalists bring into this discussion.
since after the basic system is established, people are not required to work more than a few hours a week to keep it running. they don't have to work more than that.
now you might argue that people will just sit around and do nothing all day, or play video games or sleep or whatever.
there will be those people too.
but after some time, boredom sets in. so most people have interests they will now follow, since they have the time.
people who do nothing their whole life will be supported as well, but they will be seen as slackers by society. they won't be exiled like criminals, but they won't be as socially accepted as the people who contribute to the community. and since social status is the only thing that counts in this new society, it will be a pretty important tool.
if someone doesn't want to contribute, it's still fine.
then there are the people who want humanity to thrive. experts in certain fields that could help advance the human community.
after they state their case before the community, the community decides if it is worth committing a person and the communities aid to that cause.
if yes, the person gets everything needed to achieve the goal.
cont.
>>675866589
I'm actually Canadian-Irish, for the record.
>>675866442
Would you choose to flip burguers for the rest of your life over doing something that you love/enjoy if they both paid the same?
I don't say that communism is the answer : it has limits and we saw them. But our liberal capitalism based on infinite growth leads us in a wall : our planet is not infinite and therefore, we can't growth forever. We need to change. Into communism ? I don't know ... something else ? Yeah, but what ? I don't know.
by the way, even without the problem of the end of civilization, the current system requires some fucking rules in order to reduce abuse and non sences regarding the distribution of wealth and resources ...
>>675866848
>>675866589
Most Americans understand communism ya twat, we also understand that unless you have a 100 people in an agrarian society, to have communism on a large scale you need slaves. Americans dont want to be slaves. Once we have figured out advanced ai and robotics than we will need a societal shift, until then not going to happen m8.
question: why do people leave cuba once they reach the top of the pyramid, is it because other countries would suit their new position better? .. the point is would communism still turn the planet in to a crumbling mess and put entropy in to hyperdrive, or would those hard working people have no where to go and make a significant impact. my answer is no, it would not happen on a mass scale as what is seen today.
>>675867229
>Most Americans understand communism ya twat
>to have communism on a large scale you need slaves
See, that's the thing. You're too thick to realize that you really don't understand at all.
>>675866884
Flipping burgers, because i could do a mindless job, get paid, and then do what i love in my off time. But you must remember what we love to do may not have enough positions for everyone. Tou love to write? Too bad we have too many writers
>>675867505
Really? Explain how there will not be slaves, because im pretty sure someone is going to be doing something against their will in a communist society.
>>675854799
On the contrary, communism is about giving everyone the same rights.
It's capitalism that allows unlimited unfair traits.
The one that allows people be ultra-rich while his neighbors are ultra-poor.
I'm amazed that you really think like that.
Unfortunately capitalism seems to work better.
>>675866884
So we no longer have people who will prepare food because they are busy tending their flower gardens and paintings which they do not actually own; nor do the sheers, nor the hoes, nor the brushes, nor the paint?
Since you have 10 roses/paintings and I have none, under this system I am entitled to a portion of those things, am I not? And I wish to paint/garden after seeing yours, I have a right to take your tools now too, do I not? They do not belong to you after all, they are means of production and they belong to everyone.
>>675867515
>I could do what i love all the time, or do a little bit of what i love and something i don't.
>IMMA FLIP SOME BURGUERS!
Wat.
>>675854526
It works great with no corruption. Just about any political system works great without corruption. No political system is free of corruption though.
>>675867920
>not reading the rest of the post
>not understanding that you need a little dark in life to truely appreciate light
Tell me comrade, how many writers does a communist society need?
>>675867655
>because im pretty sure someone is going to be doing something against their will in a communist society.
Are you? Explain your reasoning based on what you understand about a communist society.
>>675867917
>So we no longer have people who will prepare food
You could cook your own food.
>Since you have 10 roses/paintings and I have none, under this system I am entitled to a portion of those things, am I not?
No, you are entitled to the tools to precure your own.
>I have a right to take your tools now too, do I not?
They wouldn't be mine, we'd share, i don't need them 24/7 and neither do you.
>>675867505
>>675854526
Works out well on paper, not in practice
>>675866288
How do you enforce collectivism without authoritarianism?
>>675867972
Private and state capitalism (e.g., post-Lenin USSR) are both rife with corruption because they will necessarily create a ruling class - private capitalists or bureaucrats - who will pervert the mechanisms of society to their own end.
>be me
>see this thread
>already was listening to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L1Eh5iJBS4
>>675866288
Marxism is authoritarian by its very nature, there is no such thing as 'libertarian socialism' for example. Left-wing libertarianism is what you get when you accept that people should get to decide how they live their own lives, but don't follow your own logic to the conclusion that economic freedom is as vital as personal freedom in order to achieve that goal.
>>675866848
>fifth problem: sex and overpopulation
africa will be educated enough to use birth control after a short time. india's problem with overpopulation will solve itself, since the practice of getting children until a boy is born to support the family will be rendered unnecessary.
partners are allowed and still commonplace in society but there is no legal binding and no social incentives or penalties to stay together.
envy is probably more prominent in this area than anywhere else. beauty standards are hard to break and another person is the only thing a person can "lose".
so if you "dated" (for a lack of another term i'll just use this) someone and that person broke up with you, you will still face the same emotional distress as you do today.
you will have to find peace in the community or look for someone else.
sex, (the age of) consent and so on are defined by society and generally communicated well, so a person knows when he does something socially disregarded.
see second problem for solutions if someone breaks the social standards.
>>675854526
Soviets did it wrong. Very wrong.
Actually what they did and what is called "communism" in the west is a totalitarian socialism, which they deemed to be the only way to true communism.
Obviously it proved to be the way to social and economical degradation and not to communism.
>>675854526
that USSR hockey team
>>675868259
Still waiting for your explanation
>>675868158
>>675854526
look at Israel
its a cool way to run a country how everyone is equal and shit but greedy jews and lazy Mexicans ruin it for everyone else
>>675855154
this
>>675868158
Everybody works for the collective, what is it give what you can, take what you need? Well lets keep this light, lets say i want to go to school and learn techniques to improve my writing skills. I go and learn, come back and begin my career as a writer. Im not controbuting to the collective, no one is reading my books, i am wasting to resources of the collective. People come to me and say that i need to change what i am doing, to be able to controbute more. I tell them no. They dont allow this and now i work in the sewers dislodging fatbergs all day. Am i close, or am i still thick and dense?
>>675854526
It's just a 'guns blazing' Socialism.
>>675868538
>there is no such thing as 'libertarian socialism' for example
Actually there is. Canada has it, as do many European countries.
>>675868544
It wasn't a form of socialism; it was a form of capitalism - state capitalism. Under Stalin, the workers obviously did not exercise control over the nation's capital in any way. Therefore it could not be socialism at all.
It's theoretically the best.
Theoretically.
>>675868240
So, we no longer have luxuries such as restaurants.
Who produces the tools? Do I have to create my own tools? What if I am not proficient with my hands in creating such things? What if there isn't sufficient resources in the area to create my tools?
I have to sleep 8 hours some point, and I have to do my required labour hours too. What if there simply aren't enough tools to share during the hours I would have for leisure for such activities?
>>675868806
That's democratic socialism.
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.”
Mikhail Bakunin
So yeah, fuck communism, fuck capitalism, those are the most flawed models of the XX century.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEnbELzOldc
>>675868806
They are far from being what even proponents of 'libertarian' socialism desire. But that is beside the point. You see, my critique of libertarian socialism is conceptual, and not empirical. I mean that libertarian socialism is logically impossible; you are either libertarian or socialist.
>>675868609
Is it the duty of society to protect the weak?
>>675854526
Actual pure Communism can never be achieved as long as people are allowed to have opinions and be individuals. The decentralized collective will either turn in on itself due to internal conflict, eventually become a dictatorship because of a charismatic individual with goals beyond what the collective is willing to provide to an individual, or be destroyed by an outside force that it cannot compete with such as unrestricted Capitalism.
>>675868751
Well, to begin with, let's say you try this in our current capitalist society. Congratulations, you've starved to death because you are not "free" to go without the material necessities of life and the only way to obtain those is to work in an authoritarian economic system controlled by the capitalist class.
In a theoretical communist society (which, by the way, is not achievable except through the development of a socialist society), technology is used to automate work and minimize the required human labor precisely so that people are free to develop themselves to their highest potential and produce goods that are not necessarily what would be produced by an optimized capitalist society.
Now are you going to tell me that the people forced to work two jobs to scrape by so that the profit of their labor can be taken by the socioeconomic elite are more free to follow their dreams than they would be in a society that seeks to minimize necessary labor and maximize the time one can spend with their community and in developing themselves?
>>675868814
Which means it wasn't a democracy. But it was socialism. No one truly owned anything, not even Stalin.
>>675869369
I don't understand where you're going with this question. Are you implying that "free-market" capitalist societies take better care of the people than a socialist society would?
>>675869541
No i was going to say until technology and automation have reached the levels that they can do the tasks we dont want to, i will not entertain the idea of communism because communism cannot work without slaves, and i do not want to see humans filling those spots. Until then capitalism (not the crony capitalism you keep quoting) will help us reach this faster.
>>675869812
I am establishing a point. I am asking you, under a socialist society, is it the duty of the society to protect the weak?
>>675868541
>sixth problem: education and future
children will be obliged to attend some sort of school. they won't be graded and most of the tuitions will focus on experimenting, discussing and attaining a reflected and sophisticated personality.
there will be kids who won't want to attend school, and since there is no law that enforces attendance, it's the communities responsibility to give these kids a place as well.
the future in this system is unclear. there will be goals that clarify as new needs arise. minimize human pain, eradicate diseases and disabilities, answering the questions of the genome, populating new planets, searching for life in the universe, learning what comes after death etc.
these questions still remain, and as long as they do, people will want to answer them.
and when we do, there will be new questions.
i don't think it will be boring for a long long time.
>>675869747
>Which means it wasn't a democracy. But it was socialism. No one truly owned anything, not even Stalin.
See >>675866589
The key feature that all implementations of socialism share is that the means of production are under the control of the people through some mechanism. Unless you are also claiming that the people owned and exercised control over the mines and factories of the Soviet Union, you cannot claim that the USSR had a form of socialism.
You strike me as a Bernie Sanders supporter who distinguishes "totalitarian socialism" and "democratic socialism", in which case you probably need to read up on socialism and realize that what Bernie Sanders is advocating is merely Social Democracy.
>>675869333
Perhaps you mistake socialism for totalitarianism or liberalism for anarchism?
Social responsibility and personal freedom are not mutually exclusive.
>>675870206
Nobody is claiming that we can go directly to communism from our current point in history, not even socialists. But capitalism is not taking us there faster than socialism would. Capitalism is merely consuming resources faster and producing a ridiculous quantity of luxury goods that do not lead to the development of society whatsoever. It's wasteful, foolish, destroys our sense of community, results in catastrophic unnecessary suffering, fails to develop human capital to its fullest, and results in inevitable crises when the capitalist ruling class gets out of control.
>>675870900
Congratulations you moved the goal posts and deflected enough until you won. This is not even what our conversation was about. Congrats
>>675871150
No, I directly answered your criticism. Compare the amount of natural resources consumed in the 20th century to the rate of technological development. You seriously think we used those fossil fuels in the most efficient way to achieve maximum labor automation? Or did we use those resources to build people McMansions, SUVs, and consumer electronics? If you only enter into discussions to defend your ideology to the death and feel the need to ragequit when you think you're "losing", then that's your intellectual failing, I'm afraid.
>>675869541
>Capitalism
>Authoritarian
Choose one.
>>675871901
Different fag to the one you've been replying to, but rather than spout hypotheticals, let's look at the matter empirically.
Out of the Capitalist US, and the Communist USSR, which of the two could afford a space program without breaking their own back economically?
That's the one that made the most efficient use of resources.
[spoiler]It was the capitalist US.[/spoiler]
>>675872026
The economic substructure of capitalism is entirely authoritarian. When you go to work do you get to vote as to how the business is run? Do you consider the corporate business structure to be anything but a hierarchical power structure?
Capitalism is, by definition, an authoritarian economic system. Even if one builds an ostensibly democratic political system on top of this authoritarian substructure, the ruling class created by the economic system will use its power to subvert and destroy democracy. Example: 21st-century United States.
>>675871901
Dude. You do realize that the reason why technology develops in a capitalist society is because competition breeds innovation, right?
There's a reason why the USSR had fuck old technology while capitalism drove the creation of new inventions.
I work in a biotech research lab, friendo. I'm researching the shit that's going to be saving your life in about 30 years. I'm doing this because I need to compete with my fellow workers in order to secure more monetary compensation than they do.
Is this getting through to you at all?
>>675872567
If you'd read the rest of the thread before posting, you'd see that the USSR was not, in fact communist (how can one have an authoritarian stateless society?) The USSR was, after Lenin, a state capitalist society trying to industrialize after coming out of the worst, most backwards feudal regime in Europe. Despite successfully industrializing, the promised transition to socialism never occurred because state capitalism produces a corrupt ruling class just as surely as private capitalism.
The USSR never met the definition of communism or even socialism. And saying a thing is true doesn't necessarily make it so, as you should probably know already.
>>675855093
THIS
H
I
S
>>675872734
You vote as a consumer. That's the whole fucking point. "Vote with your dollar" is the motto of capitalism.
An informed consumer controls the system.
>>675872734
>People choose what they buy
>People choose who they work for
>People negotiate for their wages
>People get supplied necessary materials to fulfill their duties to their employer
>People can choose to purchase the means of production and contract other people to work for them
>If people fail in their duties to their employer they are just fired
or
>Get shot in a gulag because the NKVD thinks I am not working hard enough
Seriously though, why should my employees tell me how to run my business, on my land, in my building, on my equipment, in my protective gear that I provide them, on my dime?
>>675873281
Again, you're arguing about the USSR when I've already stated that it had a form of state capitalism, not socialism. Your argument is merely claiming that private capitalism is more successful than state capitalism, which may be true in some respects (although the USSR had unparalleled success in rapid industrialization). However, that has little to do with socialism. We could argue about why the socialist revolution failed in the Soviet Union, but to say "all possible socialisms bad because USSR" is to repeatedly pummel a strawman to death.
>>675873307
What about China? What about Vietnam? Cambodia? Cuba? North Korea?
Choose one. They're all communist. And they are rife with internal problems. They are stabilized only by a strong central government which regularly abuses their 'citizens' because they have no real power because they are not paid in 'power' which is symbolized by monetary compensation.
Holy shit, read a book.
>>675873381
One of the main lies capitalism tells or implies is that capitalism has always existed in the way that it does today
People haven't always been selfish
Read "The origin of family, private property and the state" and you'll see how and why the current selfish ideology came about.
>>675873992
less angry spamming, more reading, please: >>675873955
>>675854526
Everything given to me by the state. What's not to like?
>>675855254
/thread
>>675874223
Yes, that's a good point. People constantly underestimate the degree to which their personal opinions (and their conception of "human nature") are driven by their social environment. We don't seem to want to believe that our society has any impact on the contents of our thought or beliefs even though it is absolutely clear that it has an enormous influence over us.
>>675854526
The only viable future.
>>675872734
>The economic substructure of capitalism is entirely authoritarian.
[citation needed]
>When you go to work do you get to vote as to how the business is run?
No, the business is not my private property. If I use the product of my labour (that I haven't sold for the opportunity to use someone else's equipment, branding, training, facilities, etc) to buy shares in the company, then it becomes, in whole or in part, my private property, and I get a proportional say in how the company is run. That's how property rights work.
>Do you consider the corporate business structure to be anything but a hierarchical power structure?
Yes, it's one in which I have the option to not take part if I so wish. If participation is voluntary, then by definition it can't be authoritarian.
>Capitalism is, by definition, an authoritarian economic system.
[citation needed]
>Even if one builds an ostensibly democratic political system on top of this authoritarian substructure, the ruling class created by the economic system will use its power to subvert and destroy democracy. Example: 21st-century United States.
That's called corporatism, also known as "crony capitalism". It's like you actually have no idea what you're talking about. Democracy is where the authoritarianism creeps in, the will of the majority is forced upon the minority, that is authoritarianism rationalised via populism. The democratic process is the mechanism by which a ruling class emerges, not capitalism.
>>675874243
So it's a cop out then. None of the communist societies today are true communist societies, then?
So you're essentially arguing for an idea which has failed implementation many times over the last century. But because there are no good example.
By this logic you literally cannot be wrong. You're just free to make up whatever bullshit you want while ignoring real-world examples.
>>675874286
>symbol is literally crossed implements of agricultural and industrial labor
>these guys must not want to do any work
Good thinking, Jack.
>>675854526
If by "communism" you mean the economical treatise laid down by the young Marx where he puts forth the problems surrounding the economic model and the power of those owning the means for production (materiell, machines, money for salaries etc) and how what we how now is a system ensuring that the wealthy stay wealthy and that those born without power dies without power and that what we should attempt is to use the increased production gained through technological breakthroughs to line the pockets of the workers and not just those owning the means of production then I kind of think communism is a great thought; an ideal to strive towards.
If by "communism" you mean brutal dictatorships then no, that sucks.
>>675874777
But because there are no good examples, you can just freely wash your hands of them?
>>675874777
>None of the communist societies today are true communist societies, then?
Obviously, obviously, obviously not. If they were communist societies, they wouldn't even be states at all. That's the whole point. These are all industrializing state capitalist societies whose ideology is ostensibly that socialism will be achievable in the far future (though typically they end up controlled by a ruling class just as the private capitalisms of the West).
For a definition of communism, see >>675866589
>if it's never been done before it can't happen
You're supposed to be working in scientific research? Good lord.
>>675874882
Then how do you require people to give away the products of their labor if they won't do so by a voluntary exchange?
